1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hyperspace will remain the currently sold ships, and as such will always remain the beginner friendly format. We don't know yet how quickly the 'old' 2.0 ships are rotated out, that's true. But we can guess that the scenario you're describing will be very rare: a player has to join xwing, buy for a wave or two, and then quit for likely few years. And even then he still has a format where he can play his things.

[e: nevermind the part in brackets, I completely misread your point initially! Hyperspace always had roughly third of ships that were not newly on the shelves. With rotations confirmed and the inclusion of extended ships confirmed, I expect that to remain roughly stable. So if you liked Hyperspace so far, you'll like it as much in the future.]

They confirmed in the panel that Xwings and TIE /LNs will be included in most if not all rotations.

Does that change your opinion a bit?

Thanks for the info, and yes, it does a bit. I still have reservations, like knowing that your favourite ship or pilot isn't Hyperspace-legal yet (as is currently the case for the majority) feels better than post-rotation where it's no longer legal and probably never will be again. I suppose it depends on how it's managed.

Edit: in response to the first paragraph, it's a bit of a sore spot with me because it's where I'm at with Destiny right now. I bought into the first two sets, then bought much less afterwards because I didn't play it enough to justify the cost. Now the whole first cycle is about to rotate out taking most of my card pool with it. I had to think hard over whether it was worth continuing. So it is the sort of thing that can alienate a probably not-insignificant number of less committed players. How much of an effect might depend on how much Hyperspace is pushed as well as how fast rotation happens.

This means that at some point X-wings will be illegal to play in x-wing.

10 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

This means that at some point X-wings will be illegal to play in x-wing.

They said that Xwings and TIEs, specifically, are not sure to ever be rotated out. So we don't know.

5 hours ago, Dasharr said:

So it is the sort of thing that can alienate a probably not-insignificant number of less committed players. How much of an effect might depend on how much Hyperspace is pushed as well as how fast rotation happens.

I understand, it is frustrating. As you say, we don't know yet just how frustrating it will be.

What still I don't understand is who will run into that problem in Xwing. Because that restriction is limited to official events in hyperspace.

Like, what are the conditions to be met that you really run into that problem in xwing?

I really hate hyperspace. My reasoning is that it implies that the devs will not be balancing extended.

4 minutes ago, william1134 said:

I really hate hyperspace. My reasoning is that it implies that the devs will not be balancing extended.

This is probably unlikely - 1.0 ships will get re-released periodically, and development will tinker with them then, I'd say.

Also, I would offer as a potential comparative point the current formats for Magic: The Gathering. They didn't always exist, but as the game has matured, so have the formats. M:TG includes Vintage, Legacy, Commander, Modern, and Standard, all of which use different card pools and all of which are moderated through periodic bannings, limits, or other development restrictions. I'm not saying FFG will follow the WotC model, but I think they have potential to, if they're good game designers (or even half-good). Games age, they mature, and the issues get resolved. It's an active world, and if X-Wing 2.0 is any indication, FFG is acting.

18 minutes ago, william1134 said:

I really hate hyperspace. My reasoning is that it implies that the devs will not be balancing extended.

This may be true if Hyperspace were the only competitive format, but for now, FFG seems committed to both Hyperspace and Extended. Further, didn't we already see in the points realignment a change to both Hyperspace and Extended-only ships?

45 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Further, didn't we already see in the points realignment a change to both Hyperspace and Extended-only ships?

Thank you! Yes, plenty of extended ships had their points adjusted, like the HWK-290/Moldy Crow, the VT-49 Decimator, and the E-wing. They are keeping an eye and a sheppherding have on this entire game. They may not be perfect, but who is?

17 hours ago, AceWing said:

FFG announced that Hyperspace will be limited and rotating. I think that's fantastic and important for the health of the game. I know I'm very critical of FFG but they've made some great decisions here. I've got to give credit where credit is due.

FFG Event Stream

I'll play Hyperspace, but I prefer extended.

Rotations are just a way to force players to play with other ships, instead of actually making those other ships fun and competitive.

2 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

This is probably unlikely - 1.0 ships will get re-released periodically, and development will tinker with them then, I'd say.

Also, I would offer as a potential comparative point the current formats for Magic: The Gathering. They didn't always exist, but as the game has matured, so have the formats. M:TG includes Vintage, Legacy, Commander, Modern, and Standard, all of which use different card pools and all of which are moderated through periodic bannings, limits, or other development restrictions. I'm not saying FFG will follow the WotC model, but I think they have potential to, if they're good game designers (or even half-good). Games age, they mature, and the issues get resolved. It's an active world, and if X-Wing 2.0 is any indication, FFG is acting.

X Wing is not a collectible card game. The differences make a rotation much more restrictive. A typical X-Wing squad is 2-8 ships, while a Magic deck is at least 40 cards. Individual Magic cards are relatively cheap compared to a single X-Wing ship purchase, and X-Wing in play is more like a mini wargame than a card game.

A rotation will also be harder on new players, who will likely have a smaller collection than established players. As the rotation... rotates, a new player will be at a disadvantage versus someone with a big collection who can adapt to the meta with their existing collection.

3 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

A typical X-Wing squad is 2-8 ships, while a Magic deck is at least 40 cards.

True, but you're also usually putting upgrades on the ships, too. You don't generally end up with 40 cards, but neither do you usually go in with just 2.

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

True, but you're also usually putting upgrades on the ships, too. You don't generally end up with 40 cards, but neither do you usually go in with just 2.

Yes, but I'd argue that a ship in X-Wing is more... I'm not sure what word fits here. It's a much larger part of the game. Like a Space Marine in 40k. I buy an X-Wing and I get a miniature with acroutrouments to play the game. I get a Magic card, and it's just one card out of 40.

*Edit to make my thought clearer.

55 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

X Wing is not a collectible card game. The differences make a rotation much more restrictive. A typical X-Wing squad is 2-8 ships, while a Magic deck is at least 40 cards. Individual Magic cards are relatively cheap compared to a single X-Wing ship purchase, and X-Wing in play is more like a mini wargame than a card game.

A rotation will also be harder on new players, who will likely have a smaller collection than established players. As the rotation... rotates, a new player will be at a disadvantage versus someone with a big collection who can adapt to the meta with their existing collection.

I understand this, and take your point. I was just offering it by way of an example of a game with multiple formats that are all overseen. However, the same problems apply in M:TG rotation as they do here: A new player can jump in at Standard, but if they try to play even Modern, they'll also be at a significant disadvantage, since Modern is an older format.

That being said, a rotation of Hyperspace is likely to be smaller in terms of ships out vs ships in - I expect that we'll get either an annual or biannual rotation, just like we do with the points costs. That may make it less restrictive on new players, since the format is likely to contain only two or three waves' worth of ships plus the staples.

I’m going to offer my own take on this. My perspective is that of a player who got burned out at the tail end of 1.0, and I only just got back in with the release of the Clone Wars ships.

Even though I have a pretty absurd number of 1.0 ships, I have decided to focus on Resistance and Republic in 2.0 (maybe dabbling in CIS or going back to my old Rebels).

So here’s my take on the formats. With the way factions work in 2.0, hyperspace is absolutely critical to prevent more than half the factions in the game from being completely steamrolled by the sheer options available to Rebels, Scum and Imperials. Resistance and FO have 4 ships each, Republic and CIS have 3. Empire has 14, Rebels have 17, and Scum have 19. Sure, Resistance is apparently doing well right now (I’m still newly back and don’t have a firm handle on the new meta...apparently Y-Wings are amazing?), but the sheer options that would be available to the big three factions would easily overwhelm the smaller factions. Hyperspace format allows a more balanced approach where that is less likely.

PS: how did Rebel and Imperial ships get so lopsided? I know that the Ghost came with 2 ships, and the Imperials lost the firespray, but was there another wave with more rebel releases than imperial?

2 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

So here’s my take on the formats. With the way factions work in 2.0, hyperspace is absolutely critical to prevent more than half the factions in the game from being completely steamrolled by the sheer options available to Rebels, Scum and Imperials.

I have not been able to figure out where this idea that more options make a faction competitively better comes from. Is there a specific example of a list or mechanic where alternatives is the key to overcoming that thing, or is it just a general fear that a faction being less adaptable makes it weaker as new releases come out?

If it is the latter, then isn't that just a game balance issue that we expect FFG to manage as they go?

4 hours ago, william1134 said:

I really hate hyperspace. My reasoning is that it implies that the devs will not be balancing extended.

3 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

This is probably unlikely - 1.0 ships will get re-released periodically, and development will tinker with them then, I'd say.

Also, I would offer as a potential comparative point the current formats for Magic: The Gathering. They didn't always exist, but as the game has matured, so have the formats. M:TG includes Vintage, Legacy, Commander, Modern, and Standard, all of which use different card pools and all of which are moderated through periodic bannings, limits, or other development restrictions. I'm not saying FFG will follow the WotC model, but I think they have potential to, if they're good game designers (or even half-good). Games age, they mature, and the issues get resolved. It's an active world, and if X-Wing 2.0 is any indication, FFG is acting.

He has a point, the B-wings were rebalanced only because they were about to be entered into Hyperspace and at their current state would have entered and would have been chosen as often as Vader. People talk about the card pool and Magic but theis is where I point out Magic is a card game and X-wing is a miniatures game. You are not banning cards you are banning entire models, official models from FFG. Something even Games Workshop doesn't do.

However on to the card point, instead of banning entire ships, you could just restrict the pilot pool. If there is a problem ship (i.e. K-wings) reduce the pilot pool to a single unique pilot that isn't a common build (i.e. Esegee). You may have essentially removed the ship from the meta, but you do not remove players from the competition. Some sort of Hyper-extended format would be preferable than the rotation they have now. Ban pilots and upgrade cards, do not ban ships.

12 hours ago, powersink said:

I'd say striker instead of advanced. Vader won't get left out.

He'll just hop over to the Defender via one of the pilot upgrade packs they confirmed [[[[Imperial March Intensifies]]]]

1 minute ago, prauxim said:

He'll just hop over to the Defender via one of the pilot upgrade packs they confirmed [[[[Imperial March Intensifies]]]]

And then Sabine Defender comes out and is way better.

26 minutes ago, Rapture said:

I have not been able to figure out where this idea that more options make a faction competitively better comes from. Is there a specific example of a list or mechanic where alternatives is the key to overcoming that thing, or is it just a general fear that a faction being less adaptable makes it weaker as new releases come out?

If it is the latter, then isn't that just a game balance issue that we expect FFG to manage as they go?

Like I said, I just recently got back into X-Wing (literally a week ago), so I haven’t had a chance to dig into older stuff to make lists for factions I won’t play much anymore, but I imagine (for example) the sheathipede (cheap white coordinate that can carry Leia) would be pretty good for rebel lists.

45 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Ban pilots and upgrade cards, do not ban ships.

This is actually what I expected (probably foolishly) that Hyperspace would be like. Our league will often have optional formats that will earn the participant an extra league point. Like only flying non-unique pilots, or flying certain upgrades.

2 hours ago, Koing907 said:

This is actually what I expected (probably foolishly) that Hyperspace would be like. Our league will often have optional formats that will earn the participant an extra league point. Like only flying non-unique pilots, or flying certain upgrades.

Our league does various things for bonuses too. As a winner a few times, I’m getting to pick one too. This month is Hyperspace Legal for the bonus, I’m debating making mine next month either

Middle Management: you can not use the top initiative, or bottom initiative, pilot for any ship

One at a time: each ship in your list must be at a different initiative

Have some fun forcing people to break from their standard list design ideas.

There's a group that apparently was doing random-list only days.

Hit YASB, press random, GO FLY.

SUPER EXCITED FOR ROTATION!

Seriously the game is big enough once everything is out that it will be the best move to keep meta fresh.

4 hours ago, Marinealver said:

He has a point, the B-wings were rebalanced only because they were about to be entered into Hyperspace and at their current state would have entered and would have been chosen as often as Vader.

Then why did the HWK and moldy crow title get adjustments? Or the Tie Punisher? Or the Tie Phantom? None are or have been legal on hyperspace, yet all were tweaked, so why? The answer for all is that they were performing very will in extended. I feel it needs to be restated here, so once more, extended is the format for the World Championship and therefore the furthest possible thing from a fringe, unsupported, or dead format. It is literally the measuring stick that will be used to determine who the champ is. Why would we assume that worlds will not receive any form of balance tweaks? Yeah it could happen, but FFG would have to be crazy to just let the format for worlds go nuts while only attempting to balance the limited format. I know that limiting ship choice can be irritating, I was complaining quite heavily about the hyperspace roster when it was first released, but it's much less restrictive now. Yes, rotating means there may be a day when your favorite ship isn't hyperspace legal, but so what? Extended didn't go anywhere.

There's lot's of ways to look at hyperspace, but if you have a problem with it the answer is pretty much always, "but extended is still an option." Looking at it from a competitive standpoint, there are events in both formats so pick what you like, and if you wind up getting to worlds the hyperspace roster doesn't even matter because that isn't what you're gonna play. From a casual standpoint, literally none of this matters, because if you're casual you're already doing whatever you want. From a newbies standpoint, as long as something on hyperspace is in an expansion available for sale, they have a way in, and if they keep the core set ships legal at all times then that is never an issue, but if all else fails, play extended.

The idea of banning specific pilots has been thrown around too, but I fail to see how that's any better than simply rotating ships. Many ships see a single pilot used most frequently so how is banning that one meta pilot any better than banning the whole ship? If you want people to use pilots other than Redline on the Punisher, making the other options good instead of just eliminating the strongest option would be the best way to go about that right? In other words, yeah banning certain pilots might make some people happy, but it wont help balance the format or the game as a whole. It will simply kill whatever meta list that is being targeted at that time, until it's banned components come back in a rotation or two.