2 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

Yeah, or they might get less, or one group might be child molesters who don't deserve happiness. Not really any point speculating about who might feel a certain way though is there?

You might have just saved time and said that you don't understand opportunity costs or value, instead of constructing your scenario.

1 minute ago, powersink said:

You might have just saved time and said that you don't understand opportunity costs or value, instead of constructing your scenario.

I'm sorry. Why don't you explain?

Just now, mazz0 said:

I'm sorry. Why don't you explain

Opportunity costs: The person who stands in line and then resells at MSRP loses money.

Value: a bottle of water is worth more to a person dying of dehydration than a person who isn't. Some people will derive more value from the ship than others, which is why they are paying for it. The OP doesn't think it is worth more than $20, some people think it is. It isn't because they are bill gates and he isn't, but because they get more value out of it than he does.

Sounds more like vulture capitalism.

3 minutes ago, powersink said:

Opportunity costs: The person who stands in line and then resells at MSRP loses money.

Value: a bottle of water is worth more to a person dying of dehydration than a person who isn't. Some people will derive more value from the ship than others, which is why they are paying for it. The OP doesn't think it is worth more than $20, some people think it is. It isn't because they are bill gates and he isn't, but because they get more value out of it than he does.

Opportunity cost - Why should we care what the opportunity cost for the Scalper is? It was his decision to Scalp. Consider it already factored in to the Situations described, unless you can describe how it alters the equation?

Value - Right, and that's pure pointless speculation, unless you're suggesting the scalper checks everyone at the event to see how much they want the Item and lines up behind those who want it more than his customers do?

36 minutes ago, powersink said:

Opportunity costs: The person who stands in line and then resells at MSRP loses money.

Alternate Opportunity Cost: Person does something else rather than standing in line to scalp product, with no loss of funds.

Lost Opportunity: A unit designated for the Chicago market is now in Italy. Chicagoan loses opportunity when Italy now hosts Limited Edition product sales.

Quote

Value: a bottle of water is worth more to a person dying of dehydration than a person who isn't. Some people will derive more value from the ship than others, which is why they are paying for it. The OP doesn't think it is worth more than $20, some people think it is. It isn't because they are bill gates and he isn't, but because they get more value out of it than he does.

Alternate Value: Person who makes 25K per year can have product at MRSP, but not at scalper costs. Person who makes 75K gets miniature because he can afford a premium. Both want it with the same level of non-monetary interest/enjoyment.

I mean, we can do BS "balance the karma with fuzzy ethics" equations all day long.

10 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

Opportunity cost - Why should we care what the opportunity cost for the Scalper is? It was his decision to Scalp. Consider it already factored in to the Situations described, unless you can describe how it alters the equation?

Value - Right, and that's pure pointless speculation, unless you're suggesting the scalper checks everyone at the event to see how much they want the Item and lines up behind those who want it more than his customers do?

This is the least intelligent thing I've ever read on the internet.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

18 minutes ago, powersink said:

Opportunity costs: The person who stands in line and then resells at MSRP loses money.

Alternate Opportunity Cost: Person does something else rather than standing in line to scalp product, with no loss of funds.

Lost Opportunity: A unit designated for the Chicago market is now in Italy. Chicagoan loses opportunity when Italy now hosts Limited Edition product sales.

Quote

Value: a bottle of water is worth more to a person dying of dehydration than a person who isn't. Some people will derive more value from the ship than others, which is why they are paying for it. The OP doesn't think it is worth more than $20, some people think it is. It isn't because they are bill gates and he isn't, but because they get more value out of it than he does.

Alternate Value: Person who makes 25K per year can have product at MRSP, but not at scalper costs. Person who makes 75K gets miniature because he can. Both want it with the same level of non-monetary interest.

I mean, we can do BS fuzzy ethics all day.

This gives it a run for its money though.

Can we just appreciate this toy as a cool sign of "hey, I was in attendance at this con!" instead of twisting its innocence into scalping and discussions of market value? True, I'm selling mine, but it's to a friend who actually plays the faction. And the only "markup" is the $5 he suggested.

Yeah, FFG should have seen this coming, but their intents were good. Case in point, their selling of the droid for only $20 USD when they could have been cancerous and easily charged $30 and still sell out. But what do I know? AnOtHeR fFg CaSh GrAb!!!1!

18 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Can we just appreciate this toy as a cool sign of "hey, I was in attendance at this con!" instead of twisting its innocence into scalping and discussions of market value?

Unintended Irony:

"Hey, I wasn't in attendance at this con but I got mine at a significant markup!!"

So, not really a cool sign of anything, then.

4 hours ago, mazz0 said:

The difference is stores provide a necessary service. It's simply not practical for every customer to go to the manufacture directly and acquire their own item, that's why various layers of intermediary exist. In many situations if there wasn't a store selling the item than the customer wouldn't be able to get said item.

That is not the case when it comes to scalping. If FFG are giving away 100 items it's perfectly practical for 100 customers to travel there and pick them up. The scalper does nothing but extract money from the system for themselves. They do also alter which people end up getting the item, but that's just a change in which customer is satisfied and which isn't, it's no net benefit to the customer group.

BlueAce is right - scalpers occupy the moral low ground and I for one look down on them with disgust.

This is getting ridiculous. There is no moral high ground when selling something where the only real value (which is objectively true, as anyone can buy a normal vulture and play with it in the exact same way) is that people want the ship with a different color. No one is selling conflict diamonds, hotel rooms after an evacuation, or rice during a famine. There is no advantage that is not available elsewhere in this exclusive ship's box. There is nothing immoral about selling something for what it is worth when no one NEEDS that item.

FFG could have avoided this by making enough to go around (or at least enough to flush the second market). Any complaints that you have should be directed at it.

Just because an action is not evil, does not mean that said action is not morally wrong.

56 minutes ago, powersink said:

This is the least intelligent thing I've ever read on the internet.

53 minutes ago, powersink said:

This gives it a run for its money though.

*reads something he doesn't agree with*

*posts it is unintelligent*

*fulfills own prophecy*

13 minutes ago, Rapture said:

FFG could have avoided this by making enough to go around (or at least enough to flush the second market). Any complaints that you have should be directed at it.

Well, here we are, talking about the problem on FFG's website.

Go figure.

2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, here we are, talking about the problem on FFG's website.

Go figure.

FFG makes a lot of mistakes, but it is relatively responsive to reasonable complaints. This, I believe, their first shot at an exclusive X-Wing ship. Their next attempt should be an improvement.

3 minutes ago, Rapture said:

FFG makes a lot of mistakes, but it is relatively responsive to reasonable complaints. This, I believe, their first shot at an exclusive X-Wing ship. Their next attempt should be an improvement.

Agreed. And people have given them a lot of cud to chew on. I think it's good.

Let's see if we can take this conversation somewhere constructive. Assuming that FFG is dead set on making more limited edition X-wing models, how could they handle it better?

1 hour ago, mazz0 said:

They weren't the ones who lost, but their win is cancelled out by the loss of the ones who didn't get the ships.

I'll try explaining slightly differently:

Let's say we have ten Items available. We also have a group of people who desire Items, we'll call them The Group. We also have The Scalper.

I'll describe two situations:

Situation 1 - The Scalper Does Nothing

• The Group receives 10 Items between them

Situation 2 - The Scalper Scalps

• The Group receives 10 Items between them
• Money is transferred from The Group to The Scalper

The individual members of The Group who get Items cancel each other out, but The Group as a whole receives no more Items, it just loses money in Situation 2.

Yeah but no matter what happens there will be people unhappy. What about the 11th and 12th people in line. No matter what the situation is those people are upset because they weren't 10th in line or earlier. Those 10 people in line have denied #11 and #12 the ships they desired. Should they be upset at members 1-10 for getting something they didnt?

So one idea is to make 1000 or so and number them. Then reserve the lower numbers as prizes. Thoughts?

1 hour ago, powersink said:

This is the least intelligent thing I've ever read on the internet.

What, did you just start browsing a couple hours ago? I've seen a lot in this thread that I don't agree with, but none of it even comes close to the least intelligent thing on the Internet.

2 hours ago, mazz0 said:

They weren't the ones who lost, but their win is cancelled out by the loss of the ones who didn't get the ships.

I'll try explaining slightly differently:

Let's say we have ten Items available. We also have a group of people who desire Items, we'll call them The Group. We also have The Scalper.

I'll describe two situations:

Situation 1 - The Scalper Does Nothing

• The Group receives 10 Items between them

Situation 2 - The Scalper Scalps

• The Group receives 10 Items between them
• Money is transferred from The Group to The Scalper

The individual members of The Group who get Items cancel each other out, but The Group as a whole receives no more Items, it just loses money in Situation 2.

I defect.

1 hour ago, Nohwear said:

Let's see if we can take this conversation somewhere constructive. Assuming that FFG is dead set on making more limited edition X-wing models, how could they handle it better?

There's nothing wrong with the way they did it this time

2 hours ago, powersink said:

This is the least intelligent thing I've ever read on the internet.

Wow, you make a strong argument there buddy. You're very clever, yes you are!

1 hour ago, Rapture said:

This is getting ridiculous. There is no moral high ground when selling something where the only real value (which is objectively true, as anyone can buy a normal vulture and play with it in the exact same way) is that people want the ship with a different color. No one is selling conflict diamonds, hotel rooms after an evacuation, or rice during a famine. There is no advantage that is not available elsewhere in this exclusive ship's box. There is nothing immoral about selling something for what it is worth when no one NEEDS that item.

FFG could have avoided this by making enough to go around (or at least enough to flush the second market). Any complaints that you have should be directed at it.

What you're saying there is "I don't think people should value this item", which is an opinion you're perfectly entitled to, but has no bearing on the morality of scalping. The scalpers know people do value the item, whether they think that's sensible or not is irrelevant.

FFG may or may not have made a mistake, but that also has no bearing on the morality of scalping. Two wrongs don't make a right, nor does somebody's mistake opening an opportunity for selfishness make selfishness right.

1 hour ago, Nohwear said:

Let's see if we can take this conversation somewhere constructive. Assuming that FFG is dead set on making more limited edition X-wing models, how could they handle it better?

A. Make more, like you said.

B. Offer them exclusively thru their website, but as you said, make the convention one have a collector's number.

C. Make limited edition paint jobs that are offered thru the regular market, but only for a period of time.

I know not everyone agrees that the mini is more important than any other swag, but for me, the look of the game on the table is why I got into this game. Which is exactly why people moaned that x-wings sucked in 1.0: they wanted that mini on the table, irrespective of how the game operated.

The piece of plastic that sits at the end of the peg is the keystone attraction of this game, hands down.

26 minutes ago, svelok said:

There's nothing wrong with the way they did it this time

Exactly. Because this thread is on Page 5, with everyone screaming "best thing ever just happened!!" and no one defending their position about whether things went the way they were supposed to.

3 hours ago, powersink said:

What about how much each group values those items? The group in situation 2 potentially gains more value.

Well no. The same 10 people are getting the same 10 items in both cases. What's changing is whether or not the scalper can collect rent on something they provided neither land, labor, nor capital for.