Of all the possible quibbles regarding the Republic, especially toward point costs, this one in particular sticks in my craw. After a really quick skim I could only find one instance of a generic going from I2 to I3 and adding a talent slot running more than two points which was the Star Wing. The four and five point jumps for the V-19 and ARC just do not seem justified. Given that currently these are the only two ships capable of equipping Dedicated they might have been made a bit more appealing.

5 minutes ago, Pa Weasley said:

Of all the possible quibbles regarding the Republic, especially toward point costs, this one in particular sticks in my craw. After a really quick skim I could only find one instance of a generic going from I2 to I3 and adding a talent slot running more than two points which was the Star Wing. The four and five point jumps for the V-19 and ARC just do not seem justified. Given that currently these are the only two ships capable of equipping Dedicated they might have been made a bit more appealing.

Oh, there's a reason for it. Trust me. When you really look at it the way I do, it just all makes perfect sense. I mean, it just needed to happen. No two ways about it. There's points of view here, to be sure, but the fact is it was always supposed to be this way. And it's probably for the best we all get used to it, but real quick like, because there ain't no going back. Not now. Not ever. One day, when this is all over and the shop's closed, we'll have a drink on it and maybe then, just then, there'll be some explanations. Closure, even. But until then, it is what it is and now we gotta make something of it. Because if you let this thing beat you, if you let it take hold and get under the skin, you're going to be dealing with it a long time. And I just don't want to see you go through all of that again. You've got the goods, to be sure, so now just take it by the horns and ride it until it can't be rode no more. And that's it. At the end of the day you gotta make it yours and **** the torpedoes over all the rest of it.

8 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Oh, there's a reason for it...... gotta make it yours and **** the torpedoes over all the rest of it.

You sir have certainly had your tea today.

Carry on.

The V-19s need to be even cheaper. They're made out of cardboard, die in two shots, have no iden or howlrunner (besides 54 point sinker), and an okayish dial. I think 22 point V-19s would still be mediocre.

3 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

The V-19s need to be even cheaper. They're made out of cardboard, die in two shots, have no iden or howlrunner (besides 54 point sinker), and an okayish dial. I think 22 point V-19s would still be mediocre.

Wasn't the TIE Bomber, with nearly the same statline, too cheap at 28, though? The V-19 seems like a bargain at 25.

1 minute ago, Okapi said:

Wasn't the TIE Bomber, with nearly the same statline, too cheap at 28, though? The V-19 seems like a bargain at 25.

The Bomber has ordnance slots out the wazoo and can equip one of the best missiles. They also have a better dial. The Torrent just needs a 2nd missile slot and they'll be okay (at least the generics, the named are way overcosted).

7 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Wasn't the TIE Bomber, with nearly the same statline, too cheap at 28, though? The V-19 seems like a bargain at 25.

Tie Bombers had Jendon and Jonus. They can also take bombs too if they want and they also have access to Barrage Rockets, so they have quite a bit going for them. The V-19s go down so unbelievably quick that it just feels bad to spend points on them. I am pleasantly surprised when a V-19 survives a single round of combat in this high ship count meta.

8 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

The Bomber has ordnance slots out the wazoo and can equip one of the best missiles. They also have a better dial. The Torrent just needs a 2nd missile slot and they'll be okay (at least the generics, the named are way overcosted).

4 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Tie Bombers had Jendon and Jonus. They can also take bombs too if they want and they also have access to Barrage Rockets, so they have quite a bit going for them. The V-19s go down so unbelievably quick that it just feels bad to spend points on them. I am pleasantly surprised when a V-19 survives a single round of combat in this high ship count meta.

Then increase the cost of Jendon, Jonus and the best missile. By pricing a ship based on what it might take you ensure that it'll never see play if you don't take those particular upgrades or wingmates, essentially limiting the possible viable builds to one or two. I'm pretty sure FFG agrees with me. The TIE Bomber was too cheap whether it brought Barrage Rockets, Concussion Missiles or nothing at all, which is why its cost was increased by 3/2/2 points.

The V-19 has one less hull and a slightly worse dial. It's perfectly viable at 25 points, and would be laughably broken at 22.

42 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Oh, there's a reason for it. Trust me. When you really look at it the way I do, it just all makes perfect sense. I mean, it just needed to happen. No two ways about it. There's points of view here, to be sure, but the fact is it was always supposed to be this way. And it's probably for the best we all get used to it, but real quick like, because there ain't no going back. Not now. Not ever. One day, when this is all over and the shop's closed, we'll have a drink on it and maybe then, just then, there'll be some explanations. Closure, even. But until then, it is what it is and now we gotta make something of it. Because if you let this thing beat you, if you let it take hold and get under the skin, you're going to be dealing with it a long time. And I just don't want to see you go through all of that again. You've got the goods, to be sure, so now just take it by the horns and ride it until it can't be rode no more. And that's it. At the end of the day you gotta make it yours and **** the torpedoes over all the rest of it.

Disappointed this didn’t slowly turn into The Broken Man speech from ASOIAF.

I think the GST is pretty reasonable at 25, I just think the rest could use a tweak. Individually they aren't standouts but far better in a mini swarm. I'm thinking really hard about picking up a second GoR pack to run 3-4 V-19 lists with an anchor ace or support unit.

6 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Then increase the cost of Jendon, Jonus and the best missile. By pricing a ship based on what it might take you ensure that it'll never see play if you don't take those particular upgrades or wingmates, essentially limiting the possible viable builds to one or two. I'm pretty sure FFG agrees with me. The TIE Bomber was too cheap whether it brought Barrage Rockets, Concussion Missiles or nothing at all, which is why its cost was increased by 3/2/2 points.

The V-19 has one less hull and a slightly worse dial. It's perfectly viable at 25 points, and would be laughably broken at 22.

Because generic Z-95s are gonna be tearing up the meta at 23 points.... I'm just very atheistic when it comes to their cost and board performance right now. Realistically, how many are people going to put in a list? And then, what is going to be so powerful that they could take with those extra 3/6/9/12 points in Republic? Probably not a whole lot of anything.

In a lot of ways, they're worse than the Z-95 or Tie Fighter. The lack of shields severely hurts because they mostly get hit with uncanceled crits, rather than hits. And not having access to that third evade dice (which makes a significant difference) or Iden to protect their investment hurts as well.

They're not bad, but they just... die. Much more quickly than I ever remember Z-95s or Tie Fighters going down. I would say that they're better than droids, but they're not because most droids being played are IV 3 and just can kill the V-19 before it shoots. Even if it were 20 points, it would still struggle to make an impact before dying in 2 shots.

1 hour ago, Pa Weasley said:

Of all the possible quibbles regarding the Republic, especially toward point costs, this one in particular sticks in my craw. After a really quick skim I could only find one instance of a generic going from I2 to I3 and adding a talent slot running more than two points which was the Star Wing. The four and five point jumps for the V-19 and ARC just do not seem justified. Given that currently these are the only two ships capable of equipping Dedicated they might have been made a bit more appealing.

Yes and no. I feel puzzled the Blue Squadron Protector wasn't 27 points. Then, both torrent generics would be +1 point over a TIE Fighter with the same Initiative/Talent status, Gold and Blue compared to Obsidian and Black TIEs. However, I'm not puzzled why the Squad Seven Veteran is 47, that seems like a really fair price. I'm puzzled why the 104th Battalion Pilot wasn't 44-45 points. 42 seems incredibly cheap, compared to B-Wings or G1-As at 41, or Kimoglias or TIE/sf with Special Forces Gunner at 44.

27 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Wasn't the TIE Bomber, with nearly the same statline, too cheap at 28, though? The V-19 seems like a bargain at 25.

Bomber was the whole package though. Barrage Rockets. Proton Torpedo option back when they cost 9. Jonus for rerolls. Jendon for long-range locks.

Right now, basic Torrent and Bomber seem fair compared to each other: 25p Torrent + 5p Hull Upgrade = 30p TIE Bomber. Kinda clicks, IMHO.

32 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

The V-19s need to be even cheaper. They're made out of cardboard, die in two shots, have no iden or howlrunner (besides 54 point sinker), and an okayish dial. I think 22 point V-19s would still be mediocre.

I'm not sure about this, though. I kinda feel like they live through about three shots (only about a 50% chance to die to three 3-red focused attacks, presuming no range bonus or defensive tokens), and then they've done their job--your opponent sunk three attacks into a V-19 rather than a Jedi or ARC. And if they don't get shot at, the reality of Second Edition is that uncontested 2-red ships can still chip away damage. Torrent Swarm might be a different thing and underperforming compared to TIE Swarm, but Torrent Filler doens't feel like it needs absurdly huge buffs like 22 point ships.

24 minutes ago, Pa Weasley said:

I think the GST is pretty reasonable at 25, I just think the rest could use a tweak. Individually they aren't standouts but far better in a mini swarm. I'm thinking really hard about picking up a second GoR pack to run 3-4 V-19 lists with an anchor ace or support unit.

Yeah, 25pts for a 5hp Z95-ish ship isnt bad for filler. I think people just wanted the scum version of escape craft (26pt coordinating ship) or else some barrage missile capability. Their lack of options is sad and boring.

Although, I dont hate this for 32pts

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)
Total: 32

Do a damage from any range and then pass your target lock off. Maybe to a PS2 ARC?

The extra hull + evade gets a little more mileage than than I expected with the V19.

I think the reason Seven Vet and Blue Squadron are overpriced is possibly because FFG were afraid of Trick Shot and Juke Respectively. Trick Shot is easier to do with a larger base and extra firing arcs, and I guess the Republic has lots of ways to give free actions to their ships with things like Battle Meditation and Ahsoka and Plo Koon. Possibly also Swarm Tactics became an issue in playtesting alongside Synchronized Console, the main weakness of which being that one of the ships in the chain gets ps killed and loses the lock before it can pass it on, which is solved by adding swarm tactics.

My main theory for why the unique clone pilots and the generic Jedi fighter are so overpriced is because of faction identity. FFG wants to push lists that feature a named jedi pilot and mostly unnamed clone pilots, and because they felt they had to jack up the prices on the jedi so much because of force charges (and yet they charge a ton of points for upgrades that all spend those force charges) they decided to jack up the prices on the clone pilots as well to prevent people from just dropping the jedi on the floor and flocking to the named clones instead.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Bomber was the whole package though. Barrage Rockets. Proton Torpedo option back when they cost 9. Jonus for rerolls. Jendon for long-range locks.

Right now, basic Torrent and Bomber seem fair compared to each other: 25p Torrent + 5p Hull Upgrade = 30p TIE Bomber. Kinda clicks, IMHO.

It wasn't just the whole package though, it was also the individual components. The chassis was underpriced (naked Bombers were more efficient than TIE Fighters), Barrage Rockets and Proton Torpedoes were underpriced (outclassing all other missiles and torpedoes), and Jonus was underpriced. FFG responded by recosting each of them, not just hitting the ship itself.

Fixing a a ship + upgrades/support combo by increasing/decreasing the cost of the ship while leaving the upgrades/support as is, just ensures that exactly one build will ever see play. If the V-19 is dropped below its current cost, it'll be the most efficient swarm ship in the game, ahead of not just TIE Bombers, but TIE Fighters and Vultures as well. If I were FFG I'd take a long hard look at all the pilots not from Gold Squadron, though.

43 minutes ago, Okapi said:

It wasn't just the whole package though, it was also the individual components. The chassis was underpriced (naked Bombers were more efficient than TIE Fighters), Barrage Rockets and Proton Torpedoes were underpriced (outclassing all other missiles and torpedoes), and Jonus was underpriced. FFG responded by recosting each of them, not just hitting the ship itself.

Fixing a a ship + upgrades/support combo by increasing/decreasing the cost of the ship while leaving the upgrades/support as is, just ensures that exactly one build will ever see play. If the V-19 is dropped below its current cost, it'll be the most efficient swarm ship in the game, ahead of not just TIE Bombers, but TIE Fighters and Vultures as well. If I were FFG I'd take a long hard look at all the pilots from called Gold Squadron, though.

Yeah, I feel like the V-19 and Vultures are both having a case of "Our non-generics are poorly costed" syndrome. It has a support group and everything, but I haven't noticed the generics for either being bad or performing poorly for their points.

Yeah there is definitely something going on here. The 104th arc does seem under costed by a couple points. And every V-19 besides the Gold Squadron Pilot feels over costed.

Besides the point issues though, I think the bigger problem for the V-19 is it doesn't have the killer upgrade to make it solid, instead of generic filler. Just look at how popular Energy Shell Charges are for Vultures. If Homing Missiles were a little cheaper then maybe them plus Synchronized Consoles would be enough, but even then Homing Missiles rarely feel like they hit hard enough for what they do because it's almost always a no brainer to choose the single guaranteed damage. if when you chose to take the homing missile damage, if you had to roll a red dice for a chance at a second (like crossing an asteroid) it would make the decision a lot harder and probably V-19s better as well.

I think V-19s suffer form the same missile issues as the A-wing, Z-95, Advanced x1, and maybe even the Advanced v1. Missiles either are too expensive for what they provide, especially when you have to spend extra points or actions to be able to get the target lock to be able to even shoot during the first exchange. It's a shame we didn't get a good generic missile in the Guardians of the Republic pack (an upgraded version of Homing Missile would give missiles a nice niche and fix a lot of the missile issues in general).

1 hour ago, wurms said:

Although, I dont hate this for 32pts

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)
Total: 32

Do a damage from any range and then pass your target lock off. Maybe to a PS2 ARC?

I have been looking at a couple of those with a slightly higher initiative ship with Synced Console to guarantee the lower one's target locks. Something like:

"Jag" (49)
Clone Commander Cody (3)
Synchronized Console (2)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)

Luminara Unduli (44)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (6)

Total: 200

2 hours ago, wurms said:

Yeah, 25pts for a 5hp Z95-ish ship isnt bad for filler. I think people just wanted the scum version of escape craft (26pt coordinating ship) or else some barrage missile capability. Their lack of options is sad and boring.

Although, I dont hate this for 32pts

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)
Total: 32

Do a damage from any range and then pass your target lock off. Maybe to a PS2 ARC?

What kind of squads are you looking to build? I ask this because thinking about a PS2 Arc as the next step doesn't elicit joy. Nor frankly does the 32pt single dinger.

2 hours ago, Okapi said:

If I were FFG I'd take a long hard look at all the pilots not from Gold Squadron, though.

Yep.

• Gold 25
• Blue 27
• Tucker 29
  • Tucker doesn't seem too bad in theory. Free focus action when a friendly ship attacking someone you can shoot? Sounds good.
• Swoop 29
  • I think the boost is interesting, but so hard to use... ending a speed 3-4 move at range 0-1... yikes.
• Axe 30
  • Token passing abilities are usually stronger, but here the timing is awkward here. Hard to get tokens to higher-level ships.
• Kickback 32
  • Debris Gambit Kickback looks super fun, and he'd see play at this price.
• Oddball 34
  • At this price, he'd be a great support piece with Synced Console and Homing Missile. Slides in at Init 5, grabs a lock, pops a free damage, passes a lock to Obi-Wan or Mace or such.
  • It'd also be exactly high enough to prevent 5x Homing/SynCon Golds + Homing/SynCon Oddball. You'd have to take off a SynCon from a Gold, or drop a missile to Ion, or so forth. That said, the more I think about it, a 6x Homing/SynCon list (that is able to have a high-init lock) seems like something that really needs to be avoided. Essentially 6 autodamage on someone, even if it isn't super good, seems super disheartening to play against. I mean, I don't want to roll in with Mace Windu then just have an opponent lock with Oddball, and my ship is essentially auto-killed. I guess you can Init-kill whoever Oddball passes a lock to, but if that fails?
    • Again, it'd be less about whether or not it'd be overpowered, but how horrendously unfun it would be to see a ship die like that. At least current Homing Missile Spam builds have a lot harder locking requirements. Even Jendon, in some ways, isn't as bad, since it telegraphs things so far in advance that a player can react to it.

Well now I see why Homing Missiles got increased so much. Even if Homing Missiles were at 4 this list would cost 199 and still be annoying af. Eat 5 damage or 20 dice at range 3 and then a double modded concussion missile as the cherry on top. Homing's would have been the killer upgrade for Torrents if FFG hadn't smothered it in the cradle.

"Odd Ball" (38)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)

Ship total: 45 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 3

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)

Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Ship total: 31 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3


Total: 204

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Republic&d=v6!h=200!316:,100,211:;321:100,211:;321:100,211:;321:100,211:;321:100,211:;321:99,:&sn=Synchronized Swarm&obs=

In the current meta I would probably go with cluster missiles instead of homing missiles (because range 1 is a lot longer than you think when the scrum starts). They're the same points as homing missiles, so the math is the same.

The problem is there's not a real way to mass missile torrents alongside more durable platforms. For instance, you can't run something like Sinker / Jag / 3x missile torrents all with Sync'd Console because that puts you 3 points over. Likewise you couldn't run 3 missile torrents, an ARC and an I5 or I6 named Jedi with either config.

So you have to compromise and make concessions. I did come up with a 4x missile torrent list that ran Obi-Wan in a Delta sprite with Sync'd Console (note that the Jedi can't take CLT if he's going to enable high initiative locks because the CLT consumes a modification slot). But I haven't tried it out because I don't have the models and don't care to sink money into building the list without an indication it's good (and the total absence of torrents from tournament lists on list fortress indicate that players - including players who don't perform well - don't even think the chassis is playable, let alone tournament worthy.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

What kind of squads are you looking to build? I ask this because thinking about a PS2 Arc as the next step doesn't elicit joy. Nor frankly does the 32pt single dinger.

Obi-Wan Kenobi (53)
R4-P17 (5)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (8)
Ship total: 66 Half Points: 33 Threshold: 2

"Jag" (49)
Chancellor Palpatine (14)
R4-P Astromech (4)
Synchronized Console (2)
Ship total: 69 Half Points: 35 Threshold: 5

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)
Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Homing Missiles (5)
Synchronized Console (2)
Ship total: 32 Half Points: 16 Threshold: 3

Total: 199

@knute what about Battle Meditation for that one?