17 minutes ago, Darth Wrath said:

The energy shell card doesn’t say preform a Reload Action, it says reload this card. It’s the Reload action that causes the Disarm token. The card doesn’t grant the Reload action (cards that do have the symbol). I don’t see how it can cause a Disarm token.

Can you point to where in the rules reference "reload this card" is defined as anything that exists anywhere?

There's rules for "a ship reloads by", and there's rules for "recover one charge". You're saying that the word reload on the Vulture droid card is some new made-up thing that, despite having no rules whatsoever, means you get to a do the same thing as a reload action except only steps 1&2, which you want, but ignoring step 3, which you don't want.

I don't think they are strong for the reasons mentioned. Low initiative really hurst them getting bullseyes for bonus rerolls and hadr. Buzz droids seem over priced for a one shot potential do nothing effect.

I agree that Droids dont look well costed as they explode easily and have trouble putting damage in (Manoeuvre / calc only).

1 minute ago, aswitcher said:

I don't think they are strong for the reasons mentioned. Low initiative really hurst them getting bullseyes for bonus rerolls and hadr. Buzz droids seem over priced for a one shot potential do nothing effect.

I agree that Droids dont look well costed as they explode easily and have trouble putting damage in (Manoeuvre / calc only).

I think you are right here in the sense that some things feel a little bit overcosted. But these are new ships in a new faction. FFG have always erred on the side of conservative, except a few examples like Han Gunner. I think they would prefer them to be a little bit over than way under. Plus it's early days, literally.

42 minutes ago, Darth Wrath said:

The energy shell card doesn’t say preform a Reload Action, it says reload this card. It’s the Reload action that causes the Disarm token. The card doesn’t grant the Reload action (cards that do have the symbol). I don’t see how it can cause a Disarm token.

If the intent is to recover a charge using an action but without getting the weapon disabled token then it would have been worded like the Gonk Droid:

Action: Recover 1 [charge]

Shooting before them is the thing, you kill them before they shoot or they spend the token and their attack is meh

Swarm Tactics is great against those buggers

54 minutes ago, Darth Wrath said:

The note in the rules reference says an ability that tells a player to Reload is different than taking the Reload action

That note is there only to clarify that reloading outside of a Reload action doesn't necessarily count as an action (though in this case it's still part of an action), and doesn't count against your once-per-turn limit on the Reload action. (e.g. if Hyenas have the Reload action, they could both reload this card and perform a Reload action if they were coordinated or otherwise got an additional action). It doesn't mean that the steps taken are any different from performing a Reload action.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

That note is there only to clarify that reloading outside of a Reload action doesn't necessarily count as an action (though in this case it's still part of an action), and doesn't count against your once-per-turn limit on the Reload action. (e.g. if Hyenas have the Reload action, they could both reload this card and perform a Reload action if they were coordinated or otherwise got an additional action). It doesn't mean that the steps taken are any different from performing a Reload action.

You guys have convinced me. What you’re saying makes perfect sense.

3 hours ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

For 1 point more than a tie you get a firepower 3 missile with range 3

and you share calculate tokens

and kraken(on a Bel or Infiltrator) allows banking calculate tokens thus the reload for the missile does not prevent firing.

A bel or infiltrator with kraken

and fill the rest with vultures with energy cell charges.

What is the vultures weakness?

I'm scared of them, but I haven't flown against them yet (haven't flown at all since wavedrop). 24 points for a 3-red ship which denies a range bonus seems like too much for too little.

The defensive statline is weak. 2 Agi/3 Hull isn't strong. But. On average, they've got a 53% chance to live through two Range 3 attacks from focused 3-red ships, and that's when unwilling to spend calculate tokens. The whole "just kill them" premise can easily break down. Putting more than half a list into attacks and only killing one is going to leave a lot of return fire.

So they're very much a "figure out how to not joust against this" ship. Which seems hard, since unlike TIE Swarm, they don't need to fly in tight formation. It's nice to have someone close for Networked Calculations, but you don't need to run in a small bubble around Howlrunner. Most of their buff cards have huge 0-3 ranges. So they'll be able to fan out a bit, fly in looser 2-3 ship elements, and weave a wider net of arcs than a block-swarm.

Again, I can see the potential weakness in individually squishy ships. I'm still nervous about them if well flown. Thankfully, flying a lot of ships is such a PITA that almost no one actually likes doing it.

47 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm scared of them, but I haven't flown against them yet (haven't flown at all since wavedrop). 24 points for a 3-red ship which denies a range bonus seems like too much for too little.

The defensive statline is weak. 2 Agi/3 Hull isn't strong. But. On average, they've got a 53% chance to live through two Range 3 attacks from focused 3-red ships, and that's when unwilling to spend calculate tokens. The whole "just kill them" premise can easily break down. Putting more than half a list into attacks and only killing one is going to leave a lot of return fire.

So they're very much a "figure out how to not joust against this" ship. Which seems hard, since unlike TIE Swarm, they don't need to fly in tight formation. It's nice to have someone close for Networked Calculations, but you don't need to run in a small bubble around Howlrunner. Most of their buff cards have huge 0-3 ranges. So they'll be able to fan out a bit, fly in looser 2-3 ship elements, and weave a wider net of arcs than a block-swarm.

Again, I can see the potential weakness in individually squishy ships. I'm still nervous about them if well flown. Thankfully, flying a lot of ships is such a PITA that almost no one actually likes doing it.

There's a lot less support for them than it seems and too many support options reduces number of droids too low. Also, the initial engagement is pretty severe because even the range 3 ships are still positively contributing, but as soon as you close that gap the Vulture's damage drops off, they're burn through calculates too fast to store them and you start casually killing them and then they're spastic dials come into play. I'm prepared to say, a 1 K-turn might be the least useful maneuver in the game to have on your dial. Play against it a few times, power through the initial engagement and you'll probably find that not only is it not that bad, but it's not really that good of a list either.

4 hours ago, RStan said:

Because FFG said so on their Wave 3 Livestream.

...and this is the crap that really pisses me off about games like this. Language parsing. Instead of making things in a streamlined easy to follow, difficult to exploit or purposely misinterpret manner, we get crap like this that causes all kinds of confusion and general discord. FFS take your time FFG and get not just the language right, but the format for communicating the intent and effect.

Ok, done ranting for the moment...

6 hours ago, matt.sucharski said:

Getting shot. Really. 2 agi and 3 hull doesn't last. Spending your calculate on defense means no ESC shot.

4 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

I have only played a few games against Vultures, but I cannot tell you how many times I one shotted a Vulture. Range 1 against a Vulture and most 3 die primary ships will mess it up bad.

Tell that to my ships! In a tournament today it took me 6 shots, including multiple range one shots, all modded and one range one focus lock modded, to kill a vulture. 4 of those shots were front arc Arcs as well.

Some days the dice don’t like you. Some days a blocked ship still rolls natties.

Vultures are not going to like enemy cluster missiles. Neither concussions missiles. (but concussions needing to be shot as second atrack are a bit janky to use, and in the midgame clusterjam of ships dangerous for your own ships as well).

As for their reload. 2nd edition has gotten a lot better with keywords, but they still sometimes express inconsistently. Would it not been better and easier to just use the Quinn Jast expression?

Action: Gain 1 disarm token to recover 1 charge on this card.

4 hours ago, Darth Wrath said:

It isn’t clear to me. Not saying you’re wrong, but FfG needs to clarify. The note in the rules reference says an ability that tells a player to Reload is different than taking the Reload action and the Disarm is only mentioned under the Reload action.

Hopefully they clarify soon.

If you don’t think you do the disarm part, what makes you think you do the “recover one charge” part? Both are part of the “Reload” procedure. You can’t just pick which parts of the process you do.

51 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Some days the dice don’t like you.

Dice randomness is definitely a not-insignificant portion of the game. Like how every single time I fly a TIE Defender, it goes down in 2-3 shots, while Soontir, in the same games and fighting the same ships, will survive 5-6 shots or more.

Well if they aren't brokenly OP, they must be laughable DOA. Come on guys, you have to pick one of the two.

.

Trick Shot is arguably the most used talent currently.

Seismics are arguably the most used device currently.

Ion turrets are arguably the most used secondary weapon currently.

Vultures are going to have an uphill battle against Double Tap Rebel Beef Y-ions. Firesprays can easily take them on. Bombers and Scurrgs and Starfortresses, oh my.

2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Trick Shot is arguably the most used talent currently.

Seismics are arguably the most used device currently.

Ion turrets are arguably the most used secondary weapon currently.

Vultures are going to have an uphill battle against Double Tap Rebel Beef Y-ions. Firesprays can easily take them on. Bombers and Scurrgs and Starfortresses, oh my.

Trick Shot is hard countered by clouds

Seismics is hard countered by clouds

The ion part of Ion turret doesn't matter because they die too fast.

How are seismics countered by clouds? They're still obstacles, they still blow up.

13 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because reload is a keyword that points to the same procedure as the reload action.

Recharge is the one that just refreshes the charge with no other effects.

Unless you are head rules designer, and you are not, your are guessing here.

So do you have any proof for your opinion?

6 minutes ago, Rangor said:

Unless you are head rules designer, and you are not, your are guessing here.

So do you have any proof for your opinion?

Did you read the rest of the thread other people already provided the relevant citations. It's not as clear as it could or should be but it 8s clear enough.

16 hours ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

What is the vultures weakness?

Low initiative, low hull, low evade dice, no shields.

I ran 8 Vultures with Energy Shell Charges last night at a 3-round tournament and took first place.

The alpha strike is nasty, particularly against defense 1 ships (In one game I popped Darth Maul in one turn of concentrated firepower, in another I did the same to an ARK). However, you are almost never reloading your ESC. Engagement turn 1 you want to alpha strike. Engagement turn 2 you want to share calculates among your team to try to bring down another ship.

If I was in a position to not shoot, not need a calculate, or not barrel roll for blocking, then I did reload, but it was extremely rare. At Pilot Skill 1 you don't want to be sitting on a disarm token when opposing aces are trying to dodge arcs.

Here are some tips to flying against me

Reinforce eats ESC for breakfast. If you can maneuver a reinforced ship to take the alpha strike you put me in a tough spot... My ships aren't saving their ESC because they will be dead on the following turn. I need to use them or use them.

If you don't have a ship with Reinforce you need to draw me into obstacles. ESC need calculate to fire, so if you pull my formation through obstacles, I can't use them. Of course I know this and won't go into obstacles, but you can counter my counter with skilled flying an patience. If you lose patience, I win.

After the Alpha Strike, ESC Vultures are a worse TIE Swarm. The ships don't have synergy like some TIEs, and Vulture dials aren't as good (with the exception of 2 talons and 1 ks). If you can take out 2 Vultures before they shoot, you'll lose a ship to the 6 Vulture crack-back, but you should be able to pick me apart with typical anti-swarm tactics.

2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Trick Shot is hard countered by clouds

Clouds make trick shot better.

I'll take a very low probability to do damage to you, in exchange for reducing your ability to damage me to almost zero. We both get the cloud effect, but only I get the extra dice.

I am, however, on team "three point trick shot" so maybe I'm biased.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

Clouds make trick shot better.

I'll take a very low probability to do damage to you, in exchange for reducing your ability to damage me to almost zero. We both get the cloud effect, but only I get the extra dice.

I am, however, on team "three point trick shot" so maybe I'm biased.

The entire point of that EPT is that red dice are better than green. With clouds, greens are better than red.