5 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

Yeaaah I think the ESCs would need to go up to price Vultures that competitively. I flew 8 i1 (7 generic, w/Butterbot) and they were decent; i3 might have felt a bit too good on them, for that cost, I think.

8 I1's seems like a terrible idea. I would go with 6 Sepratists w/ ESC, Butterbot, and a Trade Bot.

14 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

8 I1's seems like a terrible idea. I would go with 6 Sepratists w/ ESC, Butterbot, and a Trade Bot.

Rude.

😂

6 hours ago, heychadwick said:

8 I1's seems like a terrible idea. I would go with 6 Sepratists w/ ESC, Butterbot, and a Trade Bot.

Or 4 Trade Bots + ESC, 4 Separatist Bots + ESC. Sort of like that old "Drunken Shark" 4x Academy, 4xObsidian TIE swarm from 1.0.

7 hours ago, heychadwick said:

8 I1's seems like a terrible idea.

I've seen 4 x Trade Federation and 4 x Seperatist Drones, all with Energy Shells. (ninja-ed by @Polda)

It does look scary just from the sheer amount of firepower.

Realistically, you've got to rush in close and engage at range 1, much as it feels counterintuitive to do that to a swarm. That still leaves you facing 3-dice attacks, but you get range 1 bonuses too, and at least you're not facing calculated criticals, and being in close means it's going to be hard to concentrate the 3-4 attackers per target that you really need for a reliable kill on a medium or heavy fighter.

Plus, up close the extremely short Talon Rolls and K-turns of a vultures' dial means that if moving first it's going to have trouble moving next turn.

"Breaking up the formation" - standard antiswarm tactics - seems less useful since forcing some ships to engage from range 3 in the initial engagement....doesn't matter. And, for that matter, barrel roll > calculate and blue hard turns means they can navigate the asteroids with little real difficult.

If you have bombs at your disposal it might work. 1 damage per ship is scary as heck for a swarm of 8 3-hit ships.

10 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I've seen 4 x Trade Federation and 4 x Seperatist Drones, all with Energy Shells. (ninja-ed by @Polda)

It does look scary just from the sheer amount of firepower.

Realistically, you've got to rush in close and engage at range 1, much as it feels counterintuitive to do that to a swarm. That still leaves you facing 3-dice attacks, but you get range 1 bonuses too, and at least you're not facing calculated criticals, and being in close means it's going to be hard to concentrate the 3-4 attackers per target that you really need for a reliable kill on a medium or heavy fighter.

Plus, up close the extremely short Talon Rolls and K-turns of a vultures' dial means that if moving first it's going to have trouble moving next turn.

"Breaking up the formation" - standard antiswarm tactics - seems less useful since forcing some ships to engage from range 3 in the initial engagement....doesn't matter. And, for that matter, barrel roll > calculate and blue hard turns means they can navigate the asteroids with little real difficult.

If you have bombs at your disposal it might work. 1 damage per ship is scary as heck for a swarm of 8 3-hit ships.

What asteroids? Space is a bit cloudy these days if you know what I mean.😉

I am now wondering which is best: Maul + 5, Wat + 6 or the aforementioned 4+4

3 minutes ago, Polda said:

What asteroids? Space is a bit cloudy these days if you know what I mean.😉

Depends where you are. I see a lot of people still bringing rocks and debris.

4 minutes ago, Polda said:

I am now wondering which is best: Maul + 5, Wat + 6 or the aforementioned 4+4

I've no feel for the infiltrator. It looks good but I'm not sure how well it supports the droids.

Using Wat to show what's what..... My concern is that energy-shell droids don't want to be at range 1. Primary-weapon-only, sure - and I think both lower level Bulbasaur-22 pilots (Tambor and Sear) are better used supporting droids without missiles.

By comparison, I'd probably perfer grievous/kraken + 5. He's not that expensive and he's not dependent on the swarm to be effective or vice-versa.

Wat with kraken is pretty neat, he can give himself a reroll.

Grevious is by far the best B22, and a very solid ship in and of himself for 63 points with 7 to 9 hit points behind 2 green dice with offensive and defensive rerolls and strong linked actions, but he's let down by only init 4 and a VERY strong crew option.

11 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Wat with kraken is pretty neat, he can give himself a reroll.

Only at range 1, though, and I'm hesitant of moving my expensive-and-not-all-that-tough Tactical Relay Bellyrub-22 into range 1 of an opponent.

12 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Grevious is by far the best B22, and a very solid ship in and of himself for 63 points with 7 to 9 hit points behind 2 green dice with offensive and defensive rerolls and strong linked actions, but he's let down by only init 4 and a VERY strong crew option.

True, but the crew option is only relevant if you have access to an infiltrator. I've never really been a fan of larger ships, so I rarely care about crew upgrade versions of pilots. I4 is a fair point, but that's part the reason he's very affordable for his capabilities

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Grevious is by far the best B22, and a very solid ship in and of himself for 63 points with 7 to 9 hit points behind 2 green dice with offensive and defensive rerolls and strong linked actions,

He's nearly as expensive as Poe at that point, for a fraction of the game impact.

Situational rerolls are nice, but just having lock+focus at I6 with a better shield ratio and access to double repositions is nicer.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

He's nearly as expensive as Poe at that point, for a fraction of the game impact.

Situational rerolls are nice, but just having lock+focus at I6 with a better shield ratio and access to double repositions is nicer.

Poe is probably 5 to 10 points too cheap, yes.

Don't discount Impervium though, which can make an amazing difference to survivability.

The biggest weakness of the B22 (and Greivous generally) is its init, but also the dial not really supporting the linked actions. it makes Kraken a nice choice.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Don't discount Impervium though, which can make an amazing difference to survivability.

I mean, it's a shield upgrade, that is sometimes zero or sometimes two shield upgrades.

Would you really pay for a shield upgrade on a B-22? (Or on a T-65, or on a T-70?) It's not the worst, but is it really an optimized decision?

With Soulless One it's a lot more reliable - and then, you're once again paying full price for two hull upgrades... - but without it, you're taking a full price shield upgrade that sometimes doesn't trigger? On a ship that wouldn't otherwise pay for a shield upgrade?

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

I mean, it's a shield upgrade, that is sometimes zero or sometimes two shield upgrades.

Would you really pay for a shield upgrade on a B-22? (Or on a T-65, or on a T-70?) It's not the worst, but is it really an optimized decision?

With Soulless One it's a lot more reliable - and then, you're once again paying full price for two hull upgrades... - but without it, you're taking a full price shield upgrade that sometimes doesn't trigger? On a ship that wouldn't otherwise pay for a shield upgrade?

It's luck based sure, but when it works, it's usually better than two hull upgrades, because ship crits average a little under 1.5 damage, and also have horrible effects like Structural Damage associated with them. Indeed, none of the ship crits are really ignorable.

Its value definitely defends on the likelihood of enemy crits though. It mitigate torps and x1s a lot.

It's not worthwhile withou Soulless though. But take off both and you're only paying 47 for Greivous which is very nice for what you get at I4.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Realistically, you've got to rush in close and engage at range 1....

Plus, up close the extremely short Talon Rolls and K-turns of a vultures' dial means that if moving first it's going to have trouble moving next turn.

"Breaking up the formation" - standard antiswarm tactics - seems less useful since forcing some ships to engage from range 3 in the initial engagement....doesn't matter.

That is why I always like to have one Trade Bot at I1 with no ESC to use as a blocker. Jam that guy up there while the rest of you can hang back. You prevent them from getting too close and can often find a target with no defensive tokens.

I also believe in loose formations. Don't waste the brain power trying to get everyone moving in a little block. Just get better at moving people around at the same general speed and at the same targets. It also helps prevent aces from arc dodging your entire formation if you aren't really in a formation. Helps to block up pathways for the next round, too. Keeps them pinned in and bumping.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Using Wat to show what's what..... My concern is that energy-shell droids don't want to be at range 1.

It is more for the round after the ESC is shot, or one or two bumpers you have.

49 minutes ago, svelok said:

He's nearly as expensive as Poe at that point, for a fraction of the game impact.

I have heard some people were taking a naked Grevious (or with just Outmaneuver) and having good effect. Yes, he is great with all the toys, but still an effective flanker that must be dealt with when naked. So, you still get a decent sizedlist, but Grevious becomes a real problem as you have a bigger anvil to his hammer.

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I have heard some people were taking a naked Grevious (or with just Outmaneuver) and having good effect. Yes, he is great with all the toys, but still an effective flanker that must be dealt with when naked. So, you still get a decent sizedlist, but Grevious becomes a real problem as you have a bigger anvil to his hammer.

I definitely believe more in naked Grievous than in 63+ point Grievous.