A character can suffocate for ever ? Since it doesn't do critical strikes, you just stay incapacitated and suffocating eternally ?

You go from Suffocating to Incapacitated. You don't suffer crits from being suffocating, but once you are Incapacitated and you take damage, that's a crit - regardless of the exception mentioned under Suffocating as this is a different condition - which turns you Unconscious, at which point you die if you fail the TN 3 Fitness (Earth) check.

The italicized part is not unambiguously clear from the book, but that's my take on it. While only suffocating the fatigue you suffer from suffocating is not critical even if you don't/can't defend, but once you're out for the count the "an incapacitated character... suffers a critical strike whenever they suffer damage" clause from p. 268 kicks in.

2 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

You go from Suffocating to Incapacitated. You don't suffer crits from being suffocating, but once you are Incapacitated and you take damage, that's a crit - regardless of the exception mentioned under Suffocating as this is a different condition - which turns you Unconscious, at which point you die if you fail the TN 3 Fitness (Earth) check.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

The italicized part is not unambiguously clear from the book, but that's my take on it. While only suffocating the fatigue you suffer from suffocating is not critical even if you don't/can't defend, but once you're out for the count the "an incapacitated character... suffers a critical strike whenever they suffer damage" clause from p. 268 kicks in.

It seemed reasonably clear to me. But it does require comprehending the interaction between fatigue, crits, and unconsciousness.

12 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

It seemed reasonably clear to me. But it does require comprehending the interaction between fatigue, crits, and unconsciousness.

The book doesn't stipulate rules priorities, so when two interacting rules seemingly contradict themselves there's no official confirmation which one trumps the other.

I f you don't take a critical strike from the "wound" (btw, clearly also the wrong word they used here) caused by suffocation, you also don't take a critical strike even if you are incapacitated, because this would be due to taking damage from suffocation. Wether you are incapacitated or not.

I do understand the logical point of view, and this is how I intend to play it, but the wording is bad.

And why does taking the 2 fatigues from the kiho; breaking blow, doesn't have the same "clause" ? Because you clearly don't take a critical strike from it every time you take the 2 fatigue, unless you would be incapacitated that is. Or do you?

57 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

It seemed reasonably clear to me. But it does require comprehending the interaction between fatigue, crits, and unconsciousness.

Reasonably clear if you don't mind awful and inconsistent rule writing.

And I comprehend the interactions you mention better than you.

Also, if you are unconcious while "suffocating", you are still considered incapacitated right?

So you take a critical strike severity 12 due to the suffocation every turn?

5 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

I f you don't take a critical strike from the "wound" (btw, clearly also the wrong word they used here) caused by suffocation, you also don't take a critical strike even if you are incapacitated, because this would be due to taking damage from suffocation. Wether you are incapacitated or not.

Actually, I'm going to take that back. Fatigue and strife are not damage. As written, suffocating doesn't do damage. And no damage means no crit. That said, I'm still going to houserule it as I outlined, since otherwise it just doesn't work.

12 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

And why does taking the 2 fatigues from the kiho; breaking blow, doesn't have the same "clause" ? Because you clearly don't take a critical strike from it every time you take the 2 fatigue, unless you would be incapacitated that is. Or do you?

Looking at one rule to explain another isn't always helpful in this system, since either or both may be written unclearly. Shoddy editing.

In this case that means Breaking Blow is ok though: it doesn't do damage (to the character anyway), so it doesn't have to mention crits.

19 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I'm still going to houserule it as I outlined, since otherwise it just doesn't work.

Same. And yeah, as written it simply doesn't work... Lots of the conditions are actually messed up, including the wounded condition. At least, as far as I'm concerned, this is a section that requires major fixing.

Now I'm wondering do I houserule "suffocation", or something else?

basically, kiho;breaking blow (the 2 fatigues) doesn't do critical strikes. Do you also houserule that it puts you unconscious? I'm guessing not?

question might sound weird, but depending on the answer to it, it will affect the houserule (which again, I want to keep as clean and concise as it can be).

it might be simpler to just houserule "suffocation". As you made a good point that receiving "fatigue" should not trigger critical strikes in all cases.

7 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Now I'm wondering do I houserule "suffocation", or something else?

basically, kiho;breaking blow (the 2 fatigues) doesn't do critical strikes. Do you also houserule that it puts you unconscious? I'm guessing not?

question might sound weird, but depending on the answer to it, it will affect the houserule (which again, I want to keep as clean and concise as it can be).

it might be simpler to just houserule "suffocation". As you made a good point that receiving "fatigue" should not trigger critical strikes in all cases.

Breaking Blow is fine as is, no houserule needed.

I'm just houseruling suffocation for now - with the houserule it basically deals fatigue (and strife) only until you become incapacitated, after that it switches to real damage. That sounds appropriate to me. You get choked until your lights go out, after that your brain gets deprived of oxygen and you start to die - a fair analogy.

Something along those lines, but then it would crit you for like 12 severity on top of the resist check you need to make to not die. It can start to get messy, like the dude, rescued out of the underwater missing and arm and blind.

I'll meditate on it. Maybe also adding the earth resist check while incapacitated? A fail puts you unconscious.

Keeping the resist check with death consequence while unconscious.

It would put it to 2 resist checks to "die". Which is, fine?

Anyway. Good talk.

Unconsciousness plus suffocating should equal a pretty quick death....

14 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Something along those lines, but then it would crit you for like 12 severity on top of the resist check you need to make to not die. It can start to get messy, like the dude, rescued out of the underwater missing and arm and blind.

I don't apply critical effects if they don't make sense. Getting chocked or drowning is not going to result in getting maimed, other than maybe a scar across your throat depending on what's going on.

edit: also, as long as you have them you can spend Void points to remove unconsciousness. Doesn't help with the actual crits, but lets you avoid the death roll at least.

52 minutes ago, Void Crane said:

Unconsciousness plus suffocating should equal a pretty quick death....

what is your suggestion then?
keep the severity 12 critical hit coming in ? losing arms and what not while drowning in the water ?
is the resist TN3 earth check "harsh enough" ? even if the critical strike is not there ?

44 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I don't apply critical effects if they don't make sense. Getting chocked or drowning is not going to result in getting maimed, other than maybe a scar across your throat depending on what's going on.

I guess that is a way to deal with it. Overall I hate (yeah, I hate a lot of things in this game's mechanics) the way you take wounds and then heal everything but lose an arm. I guess your houserule just make it so you take a critical hit but it does nothing? so you take severity 12 critical hit each turn but it doesn't really do anything?

Since you should "auto-heal" if you get out of suffocation (in practice), I don't feel like giving permanent wounds to people who suffocate (well, maybe brain damage ) , so the "resist TN3 earth or DIE" is a good thing I think because it doesn't keep going on if you are rescued.

you don't think adding the same resist check to incapacitated (making you unconscious if you fail) is a clean solution ?

4 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I guess that is a way to deal with it. Overall I hate (yeah, I hate a lot of things in this game's mechanics) the way you take wounds and then heal everything but lose an arm. I guess your houserule just make it so you take a critical hit but it does nothing? so you take severity 12 critical hit each turn but it doesn't really do anything?

Pretty much.

4 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

you don't think adding the same resist check to incapacitated (making you unconscious if you fail) is a clean solution ?

You need to start taking real damage - which means crits in this system - at some point. If the only way you can die from suffocation is failing a resist check, you could be suffocating indefinitely as long as your dice are cooperating. That's still possible with crits, but a lot less likely.

11 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Pretty much.

You need to start taking real damage - which means crits in this system - at some point. If the only way you can die from suffocation is failing a resist check, you could be suffocating indefinitely as long as your dice are cooperating. That's still possible with crits, but a lot less likely.

the whole Dying condition is based upon "you'll stay alive if your dice cooperate"

obviously, at a certain rank (or with certain skills) you are immune to the dying condition...
how many "rounds" a character can suffocate while unconscious ? against a TN3 ? with ring4 skill4 ?

which I think is the rule as intentended (even if they screwed up the writting, it seems to mean you won't take any critical hit and just need to roll that resist TN3 check until you fail and die).

it could be TN3 while incapacitated (a fail puts you unconcious, or any damage taken would also put you unconcious).
and the TN while unconcious could be increased to 4. maybe?

21 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

the whole Dying condition is based upon "you'll stay alive if your dice cooperate"

obviously, at a certain rank (or with certain skills) you are immune to the dying condition...
how many "rounds" a character can suffocate while unconscious ? against a TN3 ? with ring4 skill4 ?

which I think is the rule as intentended (even if they screwed up the writting, it seems to mean you won't take any critical hit and just need to roll that resist TN3 check until you fail and die).

it could be TN3 while incapacitated (a fail puts you unconcious, or any damage taken would also put you unconcious).
and the TN while unconcious could be increased to 4. maybe?

We can debate the merits of different TNs and rolls, but I don't think it's worth dwelling on. Pick what you think gives the best odds and call it good.

7 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

19 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Pretty much.

You need to start taking real damage - which means crits in this system - at some point. If the only way you can die from suffocation is failing a resist check, you could be suffocating indefinitely as long as your dice are cooperating. That's still possible with crits, but a lot less likely.

the whole Dying condition is based upon "you'll stay alive if your dice cooperate"

obviously, at a certain rank (or with certain skills) you are immune to the dying condition...
how many "rounds" a character can suffocate while unconscious ? against a TN3 ? with ring4 skill4 ?

which I think is the rule as intentended (even if they screwed up the writting, it seems to mean you won't take any critical hit and just need to roll that resist TN3 check until you fail and die).

it could be TN3 while incapacitated (a fail puts  you unconcious, or any damage taken woul  d also put you unconcious).
and the TN while  unconcious could be increased to 4. mayb  e? 

It could be incrementally increasing TNs until one fails... sure when you roll 8k4, a TN 3 is trivial... so next round it goes to 4, then 5... you’ll end up failing eventually

12 hours ago, Franwax said:

It could be incrementally increasing TNs until one fails... sure when you roll 8k4, a TN 3 is trivial... so next round it goes to 4, then 5... you’ll end up failing eventually

definitely!

just need to find the right, clean, concise wording. The idea is not to make the game "more complicated" but, simply, improve it.
I feel an incremental increase is a good solution, but it can get slightly messy to write down effectively.
Also, since the game allows you to get out of incapacitated state by healing, you can basically be "healed" and then survive indefinitely (with the right healing stuff/spell). But lets say we let that slip (could make the rule more complicated to fix this, but... probably not a good idea).
Also, since you gain strife, that TN3 while compromised can be quite harsh, even on a 8k4
Here is a take on it;

Suffocation: change the wording to:  At the beginning of each of their turns, a character who is suffocating receives 2 fatigue and 2 strife. At the end of each of the character's turns while they are suffocating, if they are suffering the incapacitated condition they must resist with a TN4 Fitness (Earth 2, Fire 5) check; if the character fails, they gain the Unconscious condition. When a character fatigue exceeds two times their endurance while suffocating at the end of their turn, they perish unless they spend a void point.


opinion?
it is trying to stay as close as possible to the original rule while fixing some of its obvious problems. but not trying to be too much complicated and still staying heroic.

HEY

I just found another bug in the SUFFOCATION rule...

It mentions a TN3 fitness (earth) check.

but that doesn't make sense... because since it is a RESIST check, you need to use the stance you are in. so all other resist checks are written like this: TN 3 Fitness (earth 1, air 5) check.

another proof that the suffocation rule wasn't updated to match the latest rule version and is just another mistake left over in a book that... was not nearly polished enough... (the whole suffocation rule wording is clearly stuff from beta or before or something else, but definitely not up to date.. it mentions "wound", have a wrong resist check nomenclature, a weird critical strike clause that doesn't need to be there etc...)


Anyway... I updated the resist check for my rule variation above.

Not sure it's a mistake... when you're suffocating, you can safely assume you're not really doing anything else, taking turns, picking stances, etc. So you can be asked to do a check in any appropriate approach.

1 hour ago, Franwax said:

Not sure it's a mistake... when you're suffocating, you can safely assume you're not really doing anything else, taking turns, picking stances, etc. So you can be asked to do a check in any appropriate approach.

It is 100% a mistake. Beging the only such wording in the book.

Also, if you fight underwater? Or try to open a gate while in a thick smoke ? Or someone trying to strangle you?

Plenty of cases you would still try to do something!

3 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

It is 100% a mistake. Beging the only such wording in the book.

Also, if you fight underwater? Or try to open a gate while in a thick smoke ? Or someone trying to strangle you?

Plenty of cases you would still try to do something!

I assume the idea is that, regardless of what you're doing and how, surviving oxygen deprivation is always Earth-based. It's not something you deliberately do, it's just your body trying to keep functioning. Maybe it'd be better if this wasn't a roll at all, given how rolls work in this system. I'm certainly not letting opportunities or strife from this roll have any effects, it decides success or failure only.

15 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

I assume the idea is that, regardless of what you're doing and how, surviving oxygen deprivation is always Earth-based. It's not something you deliberately do, it's just your body trying to keep functioning. Maybe it'd be better if this wasn't a roll at all, given how rolls work in this system. I'm certainly not letting opportunities or strife from this roll have any effects, it decides success or failure only.

Well, being the ONLY "resist" check in the game that imposes a ring is definitely an error, and as we already discussed, many other part of the wording of the suffocation rule also seem to imply an earlier version of the system.

Now, if if wasn't a roll at all.. it is something I tried to do with my houserule (perish when fatigue exceeds double your endurance).

I still kept the roll to see how long you can stay conscious though, but I ultimately put a limit. The limit also help with forced suffocation (read; strangulation) as if you take fatigue while suffocating you will eventually die without losing an arm.

One thing I mentioned earlier is that, with the right amount of "heal" you can still sustain while suffocating forever, which is weird. But, I let that one slip as it should be an edge case.

Also, on another point you mention, should you be able to use Opportunities on resist checks...

It is definitely something really bad (insanely slows down the game and can have some broken interactions).

One of my earlier houserule made resist checks their own thing, and similar to what you mentioned; check successes only. This is something that totally makes sense to me for the game to run smoothly. I did not keet it in in the end, trying not too change the rules "too much", but... Maybe it should get back in...

20 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Well, being the ONLY "resist" check in the game that imposes a ring is definitely an error, ...

Maybe they all should. Just a thought.