3 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The bse is 48...

No. The Black Sun Assassin (bsa) is. The Black Sun Enforcer (bse) is 46.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The bse is 48...

Black Sun Enforcer is 46 (Initiative 2). The Black Sun Assassin is the one that’s 48.

Why are we even comparing the i2 non elite with the i4 elite? The imdaar is the better comparison with the be bse.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

Why are we even comparing the i2 non elite with the i4 elite? The imdaar is the better comparison with the be bse.

And tell me the last time you ever saw someone fly that?

For all intents the Phantom non elite generic does not exist.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Why are we even comparing the i2 non elite with the i4 elite? The imdaar is the better comparison with the be bse.

I was scratching my head over that as well... Capability wise when taking into account the full pilot card the Sigma nukes the BSE...

Just now, millertime059 said:

And tell me the last time you ever saw someone fly that?

For all intents the Phantom non elite generic does not exist.

Toronto Systems Open. 3x + Vader. The guy running the list got shafted by the judge's interference on Vader's Talon Roll in the Semi-Final...

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I was scratching my head over that as well... Capability wise when taking into account the full pilot card the Sigma nukes the BSE...

The sigma clowns on both.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

The sigma clowns on both.

Agreed...

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Toronto Systems Open. 3x + Vader. The guy running the list got shafted by the judge's interference on Vader's Talon Roll in the Semi-Final...

What?! Man that’s crazy. And I thought I was a ‘special snowflake’ in list building, as I’ve taken Ved Folso to competitive events. Taking 3x Imdaar is next level list building hipster, and I salute that crazy diamond.

The Imdaar is very capable. Remember you're paying 8 points for +1I and Juke. Sure, it's decent, but it only really does anything if you a) get to shoot and b) still have your token by the time you get to shoot. Imdaars are also very decent wingmates for Sai, moving at the same initiative step and basically allowing them to barrel roll while still getting a focus. Two plus a Lambda is only 137 points, leaving room for an reasonably cheap ace like Soontir Fel, Whisper, Duchess or Seventh Sister.

Sure. But, then, you can add Soontir or Duchess with a normal build and still upgrade one to at least a Sigma.

You have 63 points. Standard Soontir is 54. You either bid 9 or upgrade an Imdaar to a Juke Sigma. That’s a local meta call (personally I upgrade, I’m confident in my flying to move first with Soontir, but that’s a meta and personal call). With Duchess she’s good at 42, though I like three points for Seismic a lot. Still that’s at least 18. You could bump both to Juke Sigma, or if you drop the Seismic one to Echo even.

Either way I’m bumping at least one. That is an 8 point upgrade, but a very consequential 8 point upgrade.

Plus remember, if they are shooting your Sigma to strip the evade? They’re not shooting Soontir. The Imdaar is far less a target priority. So unless you are expecting the field to be all I2 Y’s, it’s almost certainly worth it to draw the heat.

Wow. Looks like generic TIE phantoms are popular. At least popular enough to generate some good discussion. And rightly so, considering their action economy. Still, generics can offer a variety of different benefits, even without action economy.

1. Numbers. For me, the big draw to generics is numbers. For example, I tried to fly a Reaper + 3 named strikers, but with only 4 ships, I struggled in the war of attrition, because in a high-initiative meta, my ships disappeared first, and I didn't have the firepower to contend. Dropping 2 of them down to generics (and dropping some upgrades) allows me to add a ship to have the firepower to punish my enemies even if one of my ships gets initiative-killed.
   
2. Blocking. Sure, action economy is great, but when you have a lot of ships on the board, you can afford to let a cheap one get in the way of the opponent. If you're savvy, you can even do so in such a way that the ship gets a shot at other ships in the opposing squad. In general, the fewer ships you have, the less likely you want to block (although blocking with a damaged ship to keep it safe is always a tactic to keep in your back pocket).
   
3. Aesthetics. This is a Star Wars game. I started playing for the theme, and although the game mechanics keep me here, the theme really helps. One thing that appears over again in the movies is paired wing men. While the Rebels often get named pilots in the films, we see the Empire often employing escort ships in pairs.
   

I enjoy having a sense of symmetry in my squad by using paired generics to escort a more expensive ship. This helps with theme, but I think it may be a more basic aesthetic preference that I've grown up with (could it be because I am a twin???).

#4 Puzzle. Eh...I may be stretching here, but hear me out. One of my favorite things about strikers is figuring out where those Adaptive Ailerons will take me. It's extremely rewarding to predict where you are going, and then land in that very spot. But this extends beyond TIE strikers. You can use any generic to predict where your opponent is going, and set up the perfect shot. Yes, you can do this with elite pilots as well, but it's such a thrill to set up that kill box and watch as the inevitability of your opponent's demise sinks in as they witness their plans come apart maneuver by maneuver. Ah, sweet victory.

Anybody else experience the same feelings about generic-wing?

I always enjoy flying one ace and a mini swarm (I only play casual extended games). I love soontir with two alpha interceptors and two bombers (barrage and seismic). I think low ps generics are fine as long as one of your ships moves last, just to keep your opponent honest. There also seem to be many upgrades that synergies well with generics (the classic is swarm tactics, 3 points!!). The trick with a generic is to get a shot each turn (this implies staying alive) and not to worry if it is fully modified. If you can concentrate your shots you will do okay and it never feels like an NPE for the opponent.

3 hours ago, BenDay said:

I always enjoy flying one ace and a mini swarm (I only play casual extended games). I love soontir with two alpha interceptors and two bombers (barrage and seismic). I think low ps generics are fine as long as one of your ships moves last, just to keep your opponent honest. There also seem to be many upgrades that synergies well with generics (the classic is swarm tactics, 3 points!!). The trick with a generic is to get a shot each turn (this implies staying alive) and not to worry if it is fully modified. If you can concentrate your shots you will do okay and it never feels like an NPE for the opponent.

These are good thoughts, but the part I bolded gives me pause. Who decides if you have a ship who moves last? If you have an i5, do you also need a bid? This kind of defeats the purpose of taking cheap generics in my opinion. I think there are squads of generics that really don't need an ace to counterbalance.

For example: 5x Black Sq. Scout (Predator) is 200 points, with five i3 ships. But they all have 'double mods' if you get the bulls eye arc. They'll even move after things like Gray Sq. Bombers and Academy Pilots.

Also, Sloane Strikers: Captain Feroph (Admiral Sloane), 4x Planetary Sentinel: Again, highest initiative is 3, but it can really pull its weight.

(Do note that I have not made it to large tournaments to test these, but I never feel I have a bad matchup - every game feels winnable, which I really like).

----------------------------

Now I have to admit that I do agree that a high-initiative ship is helpful. I've recently put this together for Hyperspace, and I really like it:
Captain Feroph (Death Troopers)
3x Planetary Sentinel
Duchess (Predator)

Duchess makes an excellent closer, so you want to keep her safe, but she also makes pretty good bait to allow the Planetary Sentinels unanswered shots on a target. I've toyed with taking Death Troopers off Feroph to give Duchess Afterburners to help her play the bait even better, but it makes me nervous having her that expensive, and Feroph doesn't draw any ire from the opponent without some valuable crew on board.

So here's another question: what could you add to this list instead of the 102 points of generic strikers that would make it better? I'll be honest, theme and ship number are the main reasons I feel comfortable with this list, but I'm curious what you think may have more value than my sentinels here.

4 hours ago, Parakitor said:

So here's another question: what could you add to this list instead of the 102 points of generic strikers that would make it better? I'll be honest, theme and ship number are the main reasons I feel comfortable with this list, but I'm curious what you think may have more value than my sentinels here.

So I’ve been thinking about Planetary Sentinels a lot. And I think I’m coming down to a simple thing, they’re only worth it if you bring 3 or more. It’s one of those ships that just doesn’t justify itself with one. But you have 3+? It makes a mess of your opponents plans. They can get everywhere.

I was down on them, but love strikers so keep trying. And I’ve found that 3 is 102 points that can’t be ignored.

Sure they can get killed easily, but they will draw heat. And with 3 they can do work, and make fantastic blockers. And the aileron to 1k makes them deadly difficult to get away from.

I dunno, I think I’m revising my opinion of them. Perhaps my initial judgement was too harsh, as I flew them into a protorp Punisher heavy meta at the time. But with protorps and 4+ munition swarms being neutered, I think they can do work.

But they are definitely a low floor high ceiling ship. Not for the faint of heart. Still nervous about the Yion lists, that I think is their big weakness. And the RZ-2 is a thing. Which gets boost, target lock, +2 initiative, turret with double actions, and swaps two hull for two shields and exchanges a red die for a green one. For the same 34 points.

They also get Heroic, which I promise you strikers would kill for.

4 hours ago, Parakitor said:

So here's another question: what could you add to this list instead of the 102 points of generic strikers that would make it better? I'll be honest, theme and ship number are the main reasons I feel comfortable with this list, but I'm curious what you think may have more value than my sentinels here.

It sort of depends on your flying style, the local meta and your opponent, but I decided on two Strikers and two Fighters rather than three Strikers for my Hyperspace list. The reason is mostly that the Strikers hit harder, but are barely tougher than the Fighters, and adding a couple of efficient jousters to the list let fly part of it straight at the opponent, while attempting to set up flanking moves with Vader and the Strikers.

I generally do better with a hammer & anvil approach (Lambda + Inquisitors/Phantoms/Strikers, TIE Fighters + ace, Scurrgs + ace/StarVipers, etc.). It doesn't hurt that ships like Inquisitors and TIE Fighters can alternate between jousting (straight ahead and evade) and knife fighting ace play (1-turn and focus/lock) depending on the situation.

The problem I've seen with generics is that for "mid level" ships like T70s, you typically would get 4 generic ships instead of 3 named ones with upgrades. On paper the generics are a bad deal, because named, upgraded ships typically have a lot of utility, usually more than 33% over the generic versions.

However, on the tabletop, the ability of a squad to do stuff (shoot, block, threaten space) is not really linear with respect to the number of ships. A single ship, with a few exceptions for very capable expensive ships, has a hard time getting anything done quickly. They can plink away damage because the opponent will generally have a token, or just might be running away enough that you miss shots every few turns. The second ship provides more than twice the lower of a single ship, because that second shot will often be going into a tokenless target, or you can cover double the space with firing arcs, or you can block. Add a 3rd ship and you get more than 50% more capability than 2 ships for the same reasons (although less pronounced than the 1 to 2 ship jump). It's also an extra hull before you drop to the really sad 1-ship situation.

So an extra ship with just generics really does matter as long as that ship can be expected to stick around a bit. 4 ships probably isn't enough unless those ships can be expected to survive a round of fire from the opposing squad. There really seems to be a critical mass of ships somewhere in that 4-5 ship range where the regular old generics can really flex their muscles.

4 beefy ships is a really sweet spot to be, especially if you have initiative over 5 similarly beefy ships that all shoot after you. 4 gives you the the ability to get a legitimate flanker (Looking at you Lulo) and three other 3 dice guns to start taking up space. Very few ships are happy to have three arcs with a three dice primary painted on them. More often than not, at least one of them with a bullseye and crackshot in the barrel. If you can squeeze in 4 ships, you can peel one or two off to deal with a flanking Fenn Rau and keep him honest while still having decent firepower on whatever else is in the squad. That's where the "value" of generics comes in. The ability to squeeze in an extra ship that you can deploy as sort of a free safety for your team. He's not operating with perfect knowledge, he's just there to keep the QB honest and stop those midfield passes that can break off for big gains.

Honestly I want to see some of what we have seen in the spoils for the Separatists in that they have Generics that are 3 ofs and such. I think if they started adding on hull limits to the generics they could cost them down to where they will be attractive with out having to worry about 8 Gray Squadron Bombers or any other spam list shows up because your only allowed to take 2/3/4 of them to begin with. Additionally I think they missed the boat on Higher PS generic Aces. Putting more PS 4 generics in the game would make things interesting and I for one would like to see PS 5 or even PS 6 Ace generics. I think that could open some interesting design spaces as well as make the game more interesting. High PS 5 and 6 generics would be interesting as it could make you chose between PS 4 Aces with cool abilities or the Raw power of PS6 with no abilities. It might also have the side effect of meaning not every Tie Advanced is Vader or some of the other ships that have problems with only there high PS Aces ever hit the table. I would also say that the generics hull limits needs to be in for this Idea to really work where the Generic 6's would be a 1 of or maybe 2 max, 5s could generally be 2's and 4s could be 3 ofs.

17 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I enjoy having a sense of symmetry in my squad by using paired generics to escort a more expensive ship. This helps with theme, but I think it may be a more basic aesthetic preference that I've grown up with (could it be because I am a twin???).

Me too (and me too!).

18 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I think there are squads of generics that really don't need an ace to counterbalance.

Absolutely, Yions shows that. There are lots of good options with generics. My new project is making RAC work, I think with three alpha interceptors (my generic of choice) I can make a go of it.

On 3/20/2019 at 9:48 AM, Parakitor said:

Wow. Looks like generic TIE phantoms are popular. At least popular enough to generate some good discussion. And rightly so, considering their action economy. Still, generics can offer a variety of different benefits, even without action economy.

1. Numbers.
   
2. Blocking.
   
3. Aesthetics.
   
   #4 Puzzle.

Anybody else experience the same feelings about generic-wing?

All Of This.

I am about to embark on my Aileron Learning Curve (5 with Afterburners.... TIE Strikers? TIE Streakers!) and all of the above points tick those boxes.

But, more generally, I have been flying almost all generics since maybe a month after Second Edition release.
Started with Quad Phantoms, partially because they were so obvious but mainly because they seemed Fun and I am returning to my roots there, but recently Quad T70s with R2 Astromechs have been my squadron of choice.
A lot of players around me have been playing named pilots everywhere and the points saved by going wholly generic (and, of course, ignoring the bidding war) have allowed me to go with one additional ship and that feels huge. You can try to knock one out in one go... but, even if you do, there are three other modified attacks coming in (if I have played it right). Then there is a moderately good chance that I have choked your lanes for the next turn if I am playing halfway well.
Perhaps this is a bit of bias as both of those base ships are Very Solid starters.
The 5 Strikers, on the other hand, are average: Their speed/positional play is Amazing... but taking any more than two shots will probably end that ship.
Am I going to win a lot with it? Probably not.... But going to Ludicrous Speed seems pretty Fun, and this sort of training should help me a lot in the future weeks when I properly try out a more sensible Named Striker.

One Massive thing here is Purity in Simplicity:
My generics do not have many triggers, and they are all at the same time/phase. I can normally count on one hand per game how many times I have missed a trigger when using a more complex list with pilot abilities, ship abilities, upgrades.... I can probably count on one hand in total (20+ matches with the R2 Blues) that I have forgotten an R2 trigger, and basically never with the Phantoms.
I am not a complex player, as it turns out... and I have enjoyed how I have improved with basic flying, and my Win Rate has also significantly improved because of it (....that, and Quad Phantoms/T70s are pretty good as a base).
For me, Generics can be quite useful solely because I do not have to remember anything particularly special about them.
A lone generic probably doesn't win you games (though, due to their tendency to be forgotten about, can last until the end) unless they are used in a particular manner (blocking, generalised plinking)... but massed generics means that an opponent can not point at one thing and say "There is The Threat".... they have to chug through a whole lot of meh without significantly altering the capacity of the squad the first time or two they do it.

Back to the original question, though,
"What does a generic need to bring to the table to score as high as a named pilot?"
A generic needs to bring efficient additional attacks (by being a naturally good base), Additional additional attacks/defense (by being an additional body when there otherwise would not be one) and/or be a good blocker.
This probably rejects quite a lot of generics, such as some of the more sort-of-ace ships (Star Vipers and E Wings spring to mind), but I suspect it may also be list-specific rather than necessarily ship-specific.

Somewhat related, though, is What does a Higher Initiative Generic need to bring to be as good as a named pilot OR lesser generic of the same type?
From what I am seeing, it is only when a good/well utilised Talent is being used.... such as Selfless or spammed Juke. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing.

Heads up, one of our Inland Empire Aces is doing well with 4 Black Sun Assassins with Crack Shot. He's taken it to two tournaments in 2.0 and scored 2nd place and 1st place respectively. Generic Starvipers - who knew?

14 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Heads up, one of our Inland Empire Aces is doing well with 4 Black Sun Assassins with Crack Shot. He's taken it to two tournaments in 2.0 and scored 2nd place and 1st place respectively. Generic Starvipers - who knew?

I don't find that surprising at all.

20 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I don't find that surprising at all.

Me either. I prefer Predator, but you get a lot of ship for your points. I'm seriously considering futtering with my currently-planned hyperspace build to swap Guri and Seevor for two generics.

The comparison with Phantoms loses its edge in hyperspace.