3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The TIE Phantom is the single best generic in the game, even after the price increase on Juke, and comparing it to, for instance, the StarViper just makes the SV look sad.

I would like the point out something... The Sigma Phantom is indeed a phenomenal generic, and rings in at the same cost as a basic PS2 Starviper. And while the Phantom does have its hallmark cloak ability and a system slot, the Starviper’s not quite in the same boat. Starvipers live and die by their Advanced Sensors, giving them tremendous unpredictability. While both ships can make use of Advanced Sensors, the Starviper does a better job of it thanks to Boost, S-Loops, and its banking barrel-rolls. And from my personal experience, the Phantom does better with Collision Detector.

Now would a Sigma with Collision Detector and Juke be a better ship than a generic PS 2 Starviper with Advanced Sensors? That’s quite likely. But Phantoms can’t perform a lateral perpendicular turn-around.

2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Conceptually, I think generics need scalable costing. Purely off the top of my head, but something like:

One-quarter of your list is generics, they should be aggressively priced.

Up to one-half, they should be well priced ... not cheap, not expensive. Basically what they strive for now.

Over one-half, they should pay a bit of a premium.

Full spam, they should pay a noticeable premium.

Generics are rarely a problem when they aren't spammed, so they can be cheap. But then if they're cheap, they get spammed, and if they're cheap and good you end up with five Y-wings. (And ants.)

This would obviously present logistical nightmares to actually try to implement. All I'm trying to do is illustrate why the "problem of generics" is a tough balance to walk.

Again what I think is that they already have the design to fix this, if they just decide to errata what is written on the dot : Limited Dot!

5 y wing is too good, but overcosting a platform hurts player who only brings one or 2? Limited 3 then!

I think a good generic should have good damage output and abilities like barrel roll to block your opponent's moves. That's how I value generics anyway, dense firepower and high blocking capability. I think Delta Squadron Defenders are good for those very reasons. Those two characteristics are better than most pilot abilities or higher initiative, most of the time.

9 hours ago, viedit said:

We'll agree to disagree. If there weren't so many awings ps4 skulls can downright murder things. Fangs just get hosed by rear arcs.

Well, it's not like I'm insisting, though. I'm sure I4 Strikers and Interceptors can have some utility, but in a 556 meta with that list of talents, I'm just struggling to see what it would be.

6 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

I would like the point out something... The Sigma Phantom is indeed a phenomenal generic, and rings in at the same cost as a basic PS2 Starviper. And while the Phantom does have its hallmark cloak ability and a system slot, the Starviper’s not quite in the same boat. Starvipers live and die by their Advanced Sensors, giving them tremendous unpredictability. While both ships can make use of Advanced Sensors, the Starviper does a better job of it thanks to Boost, S-Loops, and its banking barrel-rolls. And from my personal experience, the Phantom does better with Collision Detector.

Now would a Sigma with Collision Detector and Juke be a better ship than a generic PS 2 Starviper with Advanced Sensors? That’s quite likely. But Phantoms can’t perform a lateral perpendicular turn-around.

M I L E S better yes.

I'm mostly comparing what you can get on four of them, anyway. Doing an AS ace at init 3 seems a bit pointless unless that ace is 4LOM.

7 hours ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Starvipers live and die by their Advanced Sensors, giving them tremendous unpredictability.

Advanced Sensors are great, but not necessary. The aces can get pretty wacky with them true, but remember these are still double action ships with tremendous mobility stock.

4 Black Sun Assassins with crack is a vicious squad.

8 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:

Advanced Sensors are great, but not necessary. The aces can get pretty wacky with them true, but remember these are still double action ships with tremendous mobility stock.

4 Black Sun Assassins with crack is a vicious squad.

They're pseudo triple action (the banked rolls are broadly equivalent to a normal ship double repositioning) but only one of those actions modifies any dice, so they're WAY worse off than the Phantoms.

If the inits were the other way around the pricing would be about right though.

That they're not generally as good value as paying half a dozen points more for words and Init, and if you lower their points till they are, you have spam problems, seems to be the crux. I think that brings us back to words and Init being undercosted, rather than generics being poor.

However, with some small and distributed point increases for Init and abilities, I have faith in non spammed Generics.

The stats and actions on a ships card are the same all round. I've had games where the Zealous Recruit alongside Teroch had a much bigger impact than Old T himself. The ability never triggered, I just put the Recruit in a better spot, I never needed a Lock, or whatever.

Equally, as an example, games where Rexler drew all sorts of heat and got focussed down, but after swapping him out for a generic, the Defender managed to deliver a more long term threat, allowed more muscle on another element of the squad, changing the balance and making target selection less obvious..

(Dubious example, Rex is much, much better than everybody else)

But still. The dial is the same, the dice are the same. I think sometimes people lack faith in their generics and pass over them after failure, rather than make a concerted effort to better influence the game with them.

Init and abilities allow you to react, making things easier. But generics allow you to force the aces to react to you, which is a different kind of thing and requires a different kind of approach.

The more I play 2.0, the more I feel that what you put on the table doesn't really matter, it's how you use it in relation to your opponent that determines the outcomes.

12 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Words need to cost more.

You are not spiced by flavor text?

13 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I'm not convinced FFG wants us to fly Generics. What value is there in them half the time when you can bring named pilots for not a whole lot more who actually have abilities?

I think, generally, this gets at it. The named pilots are marginally more expensive than the generics in most cases (especially looking at a chassis like RZA2 where 3 Points gets you +4 Iniative and a pilot ability), and they typically offer higher PS and an ability. That's a steal in most cases, and in none of the cases could you take the points you saved by going with a generic and invest those points into upgrades to make the generic at all comparable to the unique.

3 hours ago, Octarine-08 said:

Advanced Sensors are great, but not necessary. The aces can get pretty wacky with them true, but remember these are still double action ships with tremendous mobility stock.

4 Black Sun Assassins with crack is a vicious squad.

Haven't flown them much, but I went with Trick Shot. The way that the bullseye arc converges at a spot about Range 1 beyond when barrel rolling seems awkward to me. But some of that is also that I'd wanted to get better with Trick Shot.

40 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

That they're not generally as good value as paying half a dozen points more for words and Init, and if you lower their points till they are, you have spam problems, seems to be the crux. I think that brings us back to words and Init being undercosted, rather than generics being poor.

If there exists a problem at all, this is likely it.

But... we should all remember that one of the biggest Extended Events to date, for instance, was won by six generics (3x Z-95, 1x B-Wing, 1x X-Wing, 1x U-Wing) while one of the biggest Hyperspace Tournaments has been won by five generics (5x ICT Y-Wing).

It's certainly the case that some chassis have more issues than others when it comes to generic vs unique (e.g. the RZ2A), but those tend to the chassis that live and die by their Initiative Value. So maybe it's not a big deal if we don't see lots of generic Strikers, RZ2As, or Deltas.

When you can run named RZ2A-Wings (hello L'ula), why generic at all?

An (almost) across the board increase in price for all initiative 5 and 6 would do a tremendous amount to sort out the game overall.

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

They're pseudo triple action (the banked rolls are broadly equivalent to a normal ship double repositioning) but only one of those actions modifies any dice, so they're WAY worse off than the Phantoms.

If the inits were the other way around the pricing would be about right though.

SV are also 3 defense dice native. The evade puts the phantom ahead on the opening engage, but if you have to spend it, their action economy tanks. The distance between the two isn't as far as you say.

17 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:

SV are also 3 defense dice native. The evade puts the phantom ahead on the opening engage, but if you have to spend it, their action economy tanks. The distance between the two isn't as far as you say.

The extra init and the free evade makes up for that. Especially given that the SV can still only get a single action, especially if it uses AS.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

The extra init and the free evade makes up for that. Especially given that the SV can still only get a single action, especially if it uses AS.

Wait, how is the SV getting only a single action? Are you placing yourself in such a way that you can't boost or barrel roll?

My initial point is that SV don't need AS, so why do you bring it up? It's probably too expensive for generic SV. If you are looking for them to handle like AS Guri, you are probably barking up the wrong tree.

The Phantom is a superior jouster, but that doesn't mean the SV is diminished at setting up killboxes that minimize exposure. Their native ability to swing arcs around is unmatched outside of turrets.

I have to say, I've ran a pair of SV Black Sun Assassins with crack shot alongside Boba Fett and they are a lot better than people generally give them credit for.

Their dial + action bar makes them excellent blockers for I4 and above and a nightmare for anything moving before them 1v1, sometimes 1v2 because it is so difficult to predict where they may end up. I also tried the I4 Fangs in the same slot, and while they were effective the Viper's caused my opponents more headaches by far because once a Fang is stressed there are only so many places it is going to go and many times it means they won't be shooting, where as the Viper can get to places that most other generics can't and they frequently can still have shots.

31 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:

Wait, how is the SV getting only a single action? Are you placing yourself in such a way that you can't boost or barrel roll?

My initial point is that SV don't need AS, so why do you bring it up? It's probably too expensive for generic SV. If you are looking for them to handle like AS Guri, you are probably barking up the wrong tree.

The Phantom is a superior jouster, but that doesn't mean the SV is diminished at setting up killboxes that minimize exposure. Their native ability to swing arcs around is unmatched outside of turrets.

Only a single modification action.

8 hours ago, Octarine-08 said:

Advanced Sensors are great, but not necessary. The aces can get pretty wacky with them true, but remember these are still double action ships with tremendous mobility stock.

4 Black Sun Assassins with crack is a vicious squad.

That is also very true. The starviper is a very nice platform when ran as a snub-fighter with few bells and whistles.

Better than the Phantom? Likely not. But again, Phantoms can’t do the crazier **** that a starviper can.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The extra init and the free evade makes up for that. Especially given that the SV can still only get a single action, especially if it uses AS.

Um... Starvipers have as much blue on their dial as an X-Wing, and linked actions tied to focus. Guri is the only Starviper that tends to only ever take single actions, largely because Focus is a baked-in condition for her. For every other starviper option, going for the linked actions is a much more likely prospect. Even if they have AS, there’s enough incentive to make the AS action not an auto-pick.

11 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Um... Starvipers have as much blue on their dial as an X-Wing, and linked actions tied to focus. Guri is the only Starviper that tends to only ever take single actions, largely because Focus is a baked-in condition for her. For every other starviper option, going for the linked actions is a much more likely prospect. Even if they have AS, there’s enough incentive to make the AS action not an auto-pick.

Their reference is Phantoms effectively having dual mods, Evade + Focus, with relative ease most every turn while the SV at the same price point only can have 1... That is before bringing in the Init difference.

18 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Their reference is Phantoms effectively having dual mods, Evade + Focus, with relative ease most every turn while the SV at the same price point only can have 1... That is before bringing in the Init difference.

Dual mods, plus a free reposition prior to moving. All without stress. And you get to mod your opponents dice, so that's like a fourth one tossed in from the dealership as an end of the month closeout bonus.

1 minute ago, viedit said:

Dual mods, plus a free reposition prior to moving. All without stress. And you get to mod your opponents dice, so that's like a fourth one tossed in from the dealership as an end of the month closeout bonus.

Only if the Phantom has Juke. I think they were looking at the Sigma vs BSE bare, both are 46 pts.

31 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Only if the Phantom has Juke. I think they were looking at the Sigma vs BSE bare, both are 46 pts.

The bse is 48...