@McGarnacle Has started an interesting topic here on the forums.

In summary, people subjectively apply a ranking (1-10) on the pilots of ships in the Galactic Empire. He takes the community's scores for a couple ships at a time, and we're only 4 ships in, but something really interesting has cropped up: the value of generics.

Generics are almost always ranked lower (and often far lower) than named pilots. I admit that if you told me to take any number of ships regardless of points, I would choose named pilots. The higher initiative (often) and the helpful pilot abilities (sometimes) make it the right choice. But of course, we DO have points assigned to these generic and limited pilots, so our choices must take cost into account.

So what's the point of generics? Or, phrased another way, "What does a generic need to bring to the table to score as high as a named pilot?" This is definitely a problem for the TIE striker in the thread I linked to. The Black Squadron Scout gets the worst of it, but the Planetary Sentinel doesn't make it high on the list either. The TIE defender, on the other hand, received a lot of mid-high votes for the i1 Delta Sq. Pilot.

What goes through your mind as you contemplate adding a generic ship to your squad? What role do they play, and why do you choose the generic over a limited pilot? I look forward to your responses.

Empire generics suck. Except the tie academy. Everything else just get initiative murdered and has no utility for it's cost.

Like you can't even objectively measure how much worse the empire generics are in hyperspace than the other factions.

Go to extended where you get lambdas, bombers, gunboats, phantoms and interceptors and it's much more interesting.

Efficiency is what aces get you, basically. So to be worthwhile, they need to be more efficient than the named pilots.

VERY few of them are, and the ones that are are usually overpowered. Judging them is a fine, fine line, between useless because they're too expensive to get enough, and horrible because they're too cheap.

The TIE Phantom is the single best generic in the game, even after the price increase on Juke, and comparing it to, for instance, the StarViper just makes the SV look sad.

The Y Wing is next.

The TI/x1 feels like it should be good (even in Hyper), but lacking the ability to get around the low init lock issue kills it given the propensity for hyper lists to have multiple i5 aces. Maybe if Passive Sensors turn out to be cheap enough...

5 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

What does a generic need to bring to the table to score as high as a named pilot?

a.) Dice mods inherent to the chassis. This is why defenders and E-Wings are seeing good success in extended. Lack of double mods is what has historically held some generics back, so these have earned their place in the game.

b.) Utility unique to the chassis. Tie Bombers fall into this category for their curved bomb drops and cheap platform for barrage, but I'd also include generic Lambdas in this as well for the sake of being the cheapest simple coordinate for Imperials. Along these lines, generic Us see play for being the cheapest Leia carrier in rebel hyperspace. I would probably put Y-Wings in here as well, due to the relative exclusivity of Ion Cannon Turret and VTG on a small base, but they would also fall into the next category....

c.) Raw efficiency. The most straightforward way to play generics. A simple gambit of more health + more attack = more win. Granted, the ships themselves need to be competent enough to not go down too quick, but "How many of Ship X can I put in a list?" is a legit reason why generics see play. Some people enjoy this play-style; some don't. However, it is still highly effective in the right hands.

I4 generics in general are very interesting choices. That's where I gravitate too. You basically buy 3 and get 1 free over named pilots. I4 is a functional ps that can be both an ace and a red dice chucking blocker or bully. It's a very interesting initiative level that Empire can't access in hyperspace.

Rebels can't either but they make up for it in health and red dice.

The cheapest generics are generally decent. The' ace' generics are generally not worth it, since talents are typically either expensive, don't work with secondary weapons, or require the bullseye. That, paying points for I3-4 over 1-2 is mostly just seen as a bad joke.

I play generics a lot, but I tend to keep them cheap, and I tend to go for fast, mobile blockers, ideally with relevant linked actions. Planetary Sentinels, Inquisitors, Imdaars, Nus, Black Sun Enforcers and Jakku Gunrunners are my current favourites. I don't really see the appeal of generic jousters (with the exception of the Academy Pilot), so X-Wings and Y-Wings are not for me, but I'm starting to warm up to Lok Revenants and SF Survivors.

I think there's decent game in the low-i high health Scum generics to be honest. With as much variance as they introduced in the green dice, chucking them in for hit points seems solid, adn you can get two AS G1As, and two Ion Turret Loks, which is a pretty solid selection of stuff.

5 minutes ago, Okapi said:

The cheapest generics are generally decent. The' ace' generics are generally not worth it, since talents are typically either expensive, don't work with secondary weapons, or require the bullseye. That, paying points for I3-4 over 1-2 is mostly just seen as a bad joke.

I play generics a lot, but I tend to keep them cheap, and I tend to go for fast, mobile blockers, ideally with relevant linked actions. Planetary Sentinels, Inquisitors, Imdaars, Nus, Black Sun Enforcers and Jakku Gunrunners are my current favourites. I don't really see the appeal of generic jousters (with the exception of the Academy Pilot), so X-Wings and Y-Wings are not for me, but I'm starting to warm up to Lok Revenants and SF Survivors.

We'll agree to disagree. If there weren't so many awings ps4 skulls can downright murder things. Fangs just get hosed by rear arcs.

The problem with generics is that when they are good, bad players complain about how they cant use their aces or turrets to straight joust everything anymore.

The other problem with generics is when they are average, bad players complain about how they cant use their generics to straight joust everything anymore.

The other problem with generics is that very few players count generics as being useful if they arent 100% of a list and they dont count role player or filler generics as being good.

The other problem with generics is that most players only give a **** about their preferred factions generics so if one of them is bad they are “all” bad.

And this topic is entirely different depending on if we are talking extended or hyperspace. So be sure to qualify your opinion based on format.

@Boom Owl , that's a LOT of problems! But you summed it up nicely.

@viedit Also a good point about the format. If you are thinking specifically of one format, it's a good idea to mention that to avoid being misunderstood.

I'm not convinced FFG wants us to fly Generics. What value is there in them half the time when you can bring named pilots for not a whole lot more who actually have abilities?

1 minute ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I'm not convinced FFG wants us to fly Generics. What value is there in them half the time when you can bring named pilots for not a whole lot more who actually have abilities?

I suspect that they haven't priced generics high to discourage them, so much as in wariness of their potential problem in large numbers if underpriced. In other words, better to overcost and see fewer generics in play than undercost and have them dominate - a single underpriced unique pilot can't be duplicated to fill a squad and multiply the efficiency like a generic can.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

"  What    does a generic need to bring to the table to score as high  as a named  pilot   ?"  

The answer can be boiled down to a single word: value.

Generics don't get a special trick in the form of pilot abilities and typically have low initiative to make positioning more difficult than it would be for a named pilot in the same ship, so they end up being a sort of blunt instrument, lacking in finesse and wholly reliant on the basic abilities of their ship and upgrades. Efficiency isn't something most generics are able to accomplish, so if they're going to be good, they need to have enough of just everything else for their cost. They need decent attack dice, or ways to improve them, or ways to get extra or better attacks through upgrades. they need decent to hefty health depending on cost. and lastly you need to be able to put a decent # of them on the table. since they lack efficiency and can't really arc dodge in most cases, they have to win the numbers game.

Some generics shine due to a combination of the right upgrade slots, low point cost, and abundance of health for their cost. This is why you see groups of 5 generic Y's getting time on tables, but 5 generic Tie-Aggressors don't despite comparable point cost's once both are kitted out with turrets and veteran turret gunners. The Y's are simply more valuable in terms of health to cost ratio, and the result is a generic squad that can blast you 10 times a round, with more than enough health to survive multiple shots on every ship.

Other generics have a way to make them more efficient. Upgrades providing a strong combo like Juke on the Tie-Phantoms is a good example. 4 I4 Phantoms with Juke was good because each ship was improving both offense and defense with their evades, on top of being able to potentially cloak every round. The I4 Tie Interceptor gets a bit of attention sometimes too, due to it's potent ship ability, 3 red and green dice, and it's relatively low cost compared to where most of the limited arc dodging aces sit.

Generics also lend themselves quite well to being fodder. Excellent blockers due to low initiative, and good flankers as well since opponents aren't likely to go hunting generics if there are limited pilots in your squad. These of course are not worth while endeavors if that generic is too expensive, since again this is about leveraging their low value for something a bit above their pay grade.

There's lots of stuff that goes into it, as there is with anything in these types of games, but for me, value is the main factor.

This seems eerily similar to my earlier rant...

Generics are bad at jousting due to init kills. Init kills need to go, or there need to be large decreases in the cost of fragile generics.

RIP Black Scouts. They just suck so bad.

The Generic A's are probably fair. As are the named strikers- Generic strikers should be costed like generic As and named A's like named Strikers.

The difference between i5 and i4 needs to cost more.

Words need to cost more.

Eh, at the end of the day I think it all boils down to low initiative for the vast majority of them.

A generic must usually be able to survive to shoot, with at least a soft mod, to be worth taking. It gets bonus points if it has some means of disengaging to avoid being Init-killed the following round.

To a much lesser extent -- really only in the hands of Blair Bunke -- generics can survive with numbers, but the generics' numbers must be such that even if they lose one or two ships without shooting, they are going to play havoc with the positioning of the enemy ships.

Most generic pilots simply can't meet these criteria.

Black Squad Aces can do some work. Don't sleep on them. Especially in an A-wing (where only 2 of the 5 are i5) and rebel beef meta. T70 defensive profile is very good, dial isn't total butt, and they can take crack or heroic. Also at the init levels of pretty much all empire stuff short of Vader in Hyperspace. Two i4 T70's with crack can absolutely paste i4 and below a-wings, ywings, uwings and blue squad X-wings.

Conceptually, I think generics need scalable costing. Purely off the top of my head, but something like:

One-quarter of your list is generics, they should be aggressively priced.

Up to one-half, they should be well priced ... not cheap, not expensive. Basically what they strive for now.

Over one-half, they should pay a bit of a premium.

Full spam, they should pay a noticeable premium.

Generics are rarely a problem when they aren't spammed, so they can be cheap. But then if they're cheap, they get spammed, and if they're cheap and good you end up with five Y-wings. (And ants.)

This would obviously present logistical nightmares to actually try to implement. All I'm trying to do is illustrate why the "problem of generics" is a tough balance to walk.

Quantity has a quality all it's own.

I don't think enough people rate Generics as well as they should. Personally, I think a player with enough skill can fly a lot of generics to victory often enough. Didn't someone win the last System Open with a list of only generics?

How many people actually try generics enough to really get a good feel for them? I think most people just dismiss them without even really trying them.

5 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Quantity has a quality all it's own.

I don't think enough people rate Generics as well as they should. Personally, I think a player with enough skill can fly a lot of generics to victory often enough. Didn't someone  win the last  System Open with a list of only  generics?

How many people actually try generics enough to really get a good feel for them? I think most people just dismiss them without even really trying them.

I think the only "Named" pilot at Toronto System Open final was Zeb Shuttle. Let that soak in for a bit.

6 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Quantity has a quality all it's own.

I don't think enough people rate Generics as well as they should. Personally, I think a player with enough skill can fly a lot of generics to victory often enough. Didn't someone win the last System Open with a list of only generics?

How many people actually try generics enough to really get a good feel for them? I think most people just dismiss them without even really trying them.

Sort of. Leia crew made the list sing.

On the Leia lists: they were High Health.

A 2-3 health b will never shoot again in a 1v1 shot exchange

The same applies to something like a Striker.

The problem is

The only not-good thing currently viable is ICT: Ion should intentionally sub-par as it is a control element.

4 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The only not-good thing currently viable is ICT: Ion should intentionally sub-par as it is a control element.

Ion weapons are already nerfed to **** when it comes to applying Ion Tokens compared to what they were previously capable of. They're only "viable" in mass.

2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I'm not convinced FFG wants us to fly Generics. What value is there in them half the time when you can bring named pilots for not a whole lot more who actually have abilities?

^This.

Because either they would have made them cost effective, or they would finally come up with squad mechanics.

47 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Conceptually, I think generics need scalable costing. Purely off the top of my head, but something like:

One-quarter of your list is generics, they should be aggressively priced.

Up to one-half, they should be well priced ... not cheap, not expensive. Basically what they strive for now.

Over one-half, they should pay a bit of a premium.

Full spam, they should pay a noticeable premium.

Generics are rarely a problem when they aren't spammed, so they can be cheap. But then if they're cheap, they get spammed, and if they're cheap and good you end up with five Y-wings. (And ants.)

This would obviously present logistical nightmares to actually try to implement. All I'm trying to do is illustrate why the "problem of generics" is a tough balance to walk.

And this is where a Squadron title might help. It could add that premium without needing to alter the base cost of the ship.

Lastly, generics are best in Epic. So, someday they might be more useful.