I had a really hard time to get an idea how Jyn Erso might fit in a list. Infiltrate is obviously nice, but she is a really expensive model that can get isolated very quick. She wants to stay away from close combat units in particular, but she also seems to have a lot of other bad matchups. She costs as much as Han and much more than Leia, but her abilities and Command Cards actually seemed much worse than theirs to me. On top of that, her damage output is really underwhelming.

What she is actually really good at is getting shot at when she is in cover, has a dodge token and a lot of suppression. Thanks to nimble, Teamwork and the combination of Quick Thinking/dodge, she has a really good chance to reduce incoming hits to one or two wounds before she makes her saves. That is the sweet spot where those bonus dice have the most effect. In theory, she has the potential to soak up more than twice as many ranged hits as Vader or Boba. I think she does need close combat support and is probably good as a bait for counterpunchers like Luke or Sabine. I also think that it could be really effective to tie up a unit with her and then detonate some Proton charges next to that combat once she has a dodge token. This might be a way to get one or two suppression tokens on her behind a line of sight blocker as well.

In the following tables, I compare how much damage gets through the save of Han and Jyn Erso with 1,2,3 or 4 suppression tokens. Jyn really has the edge when she can roll those extra dice against units with few dice and Pierce 1, like the ubiquitous Sniper Teams. That staying power might be really good in a lot of missions where the opponent has to shoot her to prevent you from scoring.

Compared to other units, it is really hard to quantify Jyn resiliance against ranged attacks, because it depends on a lot of variables. A Stormtrooper has a 50-50 chance to pass his save, so it takes about 2 hits on average to shrug off a wound from him. Boba has a 2 out of 3 chance to save a hit with his defence dice, so on average about 15 hits without pierce have to get through his cover or dodge tokens to cause 5 wounds to him and take him out. Jyns Danger Sense give her up to 4 bonus dice per attack action against her. If she defends against 3 attacks with one hit each, she rolls up to 15 Defence dice. Against a single attack with 3 Hits, she only rolls up to 5 defence dice. That means cover and dodge tokens and maybe Guardians are paramount for her in order to tone down attack pools with a lot of hits. Since her chance to neutralize individual hits depends on the size of the enemy attack pool, her save chance will always be in a certain spectrum.

Why are your effective wounds going down as you take more hits? That should be increasing.

14 hours ago, Derrault said:

Why are your effective wounds going down as you take more hits? That should be increasing.

Actually the whole point oft that post was to show the opposite. If she has 4 suppression tokens and is hit by 3 attacks with one hit each after cover and dodge is apllied she throws 15 dice against those 3 wounds. If she is hit by one attack with 3 wounds after cover and Dodge is applied, she can just throw 5 dice against those 3 hits. That means if you can avoid massive enemy attack pools without any cover or dodge tokens on Erso, she can take much more punishment than any other unit in the game.

I don't get your numbers in the charts at all. How can one hit on Han average 4 damage? Under what condition is it the 0 or the 4?

50 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

I don't get your numbers in the charts at all. How can one hit on Han average 4 damage? Under what condition is it the 0 or the 4?

It is supposed to mean 0.4. I forgot to change it to the english way of formating numbers when I posted it. I will clarify the tables and change the numbers to anglistic notation this evening when I have more time.

If Han is targeted by an attack pool with one hit or crit, he takes 0.4 damage on average, because with his rerollable white dice/surge, Han has a 56% (5 cases out of 9) chance to pass that save and a 44 % chance (4 cases out of 9) to fail it.

4 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

It is supposed to mean 0.4. I forgot to change it to the english way of formating numbers when I posted it. I will clarify the tables and change the numbers to anglistic notation this evening when I have more time.

If Han is targeted by an attack pool with one hit or crit, he takes 0.4 damage on average, because with his rerollable white dice/surge, Han has a 56% (5 cases out of 9) chance to pass that save and a 44 % chance (4 cases out of 9) to fail it.

Oops, I actually knew that and just did not apply that knowledge to your post. Sorry. Thanks for running the numbers for us!

7 hours ago, M.Mustermann said:

Actually the whole point oft that post was to show the opposite. If she has 4 Suppression Tokens and is hit by 3 attacks with one hit each after cover and dodge is apllied she throws 15 dice against those 3 wounds. If she is hit by one attack with 3 wounds after cover and Dodge is applied, she can just throw 5 die against those 3 hits. That means if you can avoid massive enemy attack pools without any cover vor dodge tokens on Erso, she can take much more punishment than any other unit in the game.

Ah, I was reading that as a percentage of average wounds suffered per attack; not the value of her wounds (ie number of hits/crits required to get through those wounds.

Does that number assume cover 1 only or cover 2, and does it assume a dodge token vs every attack? (Because those circumstances increase the effective hit points of the target; for terminology purposes, I’d avoid wounds to describe effective hp, as that is a game term)

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

Ah, I was reading that as a percentage of average wounds suffered per attack; not the value of her wounds (ie number of hits/crits required to get through those wounds.

Does that number assume cover 1 only or cover 2, and does it assume a dodge token vs every attack? (Because those circumstances increase the effective hit points of the target; for terminology purposes, I’d avoid wounds to describe effective hp, as that is a game term)

No, unfortunatly the hits that are negated by cover, dodge and guardian aren't considered at all. That would have been a bit too complex to calculate with excel. I would have had to consider the chance for critical hits and the difference between attack pools with surge to crit and without.

However, I only calculated the odds for attackpools with 1 to 3 hits because I assumed that you keep Jyn in cover and give her at least one dodge token whenever possible. As soon as she has to defend against 4 or more hits in one pool, Danger Sense becomes much less efficient and her save gets closer and closer to 33%.

All objectives which require to be at a certain place in a certain round (like Intercept, key positions or breakthrough) are great for Jyn. You just move her where she needs to be with dodge and hard cover and make sure that she is not engaged by brawlers.

Why do people insist on using math to show what the best unit is, or average hits. Etc?

Just play what looks or you feel is cool.

Want to field palpatine? Do it! But so you can cackle and comment in the vein of “good.. good.. move your pathetic fleet troopers in range my fully operational at-st!”

13 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Why do people insist on using math to show what the best unit is, or average hits. Etc?

Just play what looks or you feel is cool.

Want to field palpatine? Do it! But so you can cackle and comment in the vein of “good.. good.. move your pathetic fleet troopers in range my fully operational at-st!”

Amen.

Dewbacks are clearly best. They are so good, they have been withheld from us for fear of breaking the game.

1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Why do people insist on using math to show what the best unit is, or average hits. Etc?

Just play what looks or you feel is cool.

Want to field palpatine? Do it! But so you can cackle and comment in the vein of “good.. good.. move your pathetic fleet troopers in range my fully operational at-st!”

1. It is just one component of the unit. Units are more than just defense rolls.

2. You are welcome to keep playing the way you want.

I find it interesting and thank the OP for working it out.

9 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Why do people insist on using math to show what the best unit is, or average hits. Etc?

Just play what looks or you feel is cool.

Want to field palpatine? Do it! But so you can cackle and comment in the vein of “good.. good.. move your pathetic fleet troopers in range my fully operational at-st!”

I'm sorry that people aren't playing the game how you would prefer they play it. Those bastards, having fun in their own way and not falling in line with how you want them to have fun. How dare they?!

Played against her on the weekend, a casual 4 free defence dice and in heavy cover made her very tough to kill.

Only Boba Fett thanks to sharpshooter 2 and pierce 1 could really hurt her and veers rolling crits like a boss.

On 3/17/2019 at 4:44 AM, DarkTrooperZero said:

Played against her on the weekend, a casual 4 free defence dice and in heavy cover made her very tough to kill.

Only Boba Fett thanks to sharpshooter 2 and pierce 1 could really hurt her and veers rolling crits like a boss.

Tested her a little bit as well.

I think by far the best loadout for her is Duck and Cover, Strict orders and Environmental Gear. Duck and cover is obvious. Strict orders can reliably get 2 Suppression token off before she activates, which is good if she has exactly 4 before the end phase. Environmental gear is nice to keep her mobile, because her resiliance is pointless if she cannot play the mission.

Units with a surge to crit and/or a lot of dice/pierce are a hard counter for her. She should stay behind line of sight blockers until the decisive turn in which she can score. She will sooner or later get down if the opponent is shooting at her for several turns. Even for her hard counters, it is really difficult to kill her in one turn though.

I think there are some other ways to play around her weaknesses.

1. If the terrain, the opposing list and the mission allow it, she should get into duell situations with one or strike teams snipers and/or enemy corps units.

2. Against mobile units like Boba, Luke or Sabine she should stay near the main force and get support by an own unit of that kind like Wookies, Luke or Sabine

3.. Against slow Field control units like Palpatine or Vader she can hang around at a flank until they have moved on to the centre or get baited into chasing her and neglegt the mission.

Besides Luke she is also a good partner for Han, because she is a good target for Reckless Diversion due to Infiltrate and her resiliance to ranged attacks.

Luke can support her against enemy field control units and giver her dodge tokens with his 2 pip. His 3-Pip can also help if she has acumulated too much suppression.

Jyn can engage one unit with rebellious before it can shoot at Luke and help him to get to his target.

Quick Thinking and Teamwork is obviously good to support Luke as well.

1 hour ago, M.Mustermann said:

Strict orders can reliably get 2 Suppression token off before she activates, which is good if she has exactly 4 before the end phase.

and how so?

or do you mean 1 at the end step and one in the rally step?

The other night she got one shotted (with two suppression tokens) by a rebel tropper and his z6 buddy. =(

This isn't a knock on her. Up until that moment she was the MVP of the match. My opponent rolled 7 hits, I rolled 0 blocks.

Unfortunately she was carrying two supply boxes and that took me from a 3-2 win to a 1-2 loss. Not much you can really do about that.

5 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

The other night she got one shotted (with two suppression tokens) by a rebel tropper and his z6 buddy. =(

This isn't a knock on her. Up until that moment she was the MVP of the match. My opponent rolled 7 hits, I rolled 0 blocks.

Unfortunately she was carrying two supply boxes and that took me from a 3-2 win to a 1-2 loss. Not much you can really do about that.

It just be like that. My brother once rolled 6 blanks of red defence dice, lost him the game

Played a game against a guy with two pathfinders, Jyn, two AT-RTs, and 3-4 Rebel troopers. I won the game by the end of round two. (couple lucky rolls played a huge deal)

This isn't to say that Jyn and Pathfinders aren't tanky, it's just that they die pretty fast when you can focus fire on them. Extra white dice are helpful, but chances are if you're forcing your opponent to roll an incredible amount, you'll get plenty of hits though.

22 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Played a game against a guy with two pathfinders, Jyn, two AT-RTs, and 3-4 Rebel troopers. I won the game by the end of round two. (couple lucky rolls played a huge deal)

This isn't to say that Jyn and Pathfinders aren't tanky, it's just that they die pretty fast when you can focus fire on them. Extra white dice are helpful, but chances are if you're forcing your opponent to roll an incredible amount, you'll get plenty of hits though.

Yepp. I think she is a late game asset. If she gets exposed and damaged early on, she will loose a lot of her utility. Her damage is negligible, so it doesn't matter that much if she doesn't shoot or kill a lot in the first turns.

Her main edge compared to pathfinders is that you can hide her behind a line of sight blocker easier and just stay present at a place where she can reach objective-critical areas within one or two activations.

Even in recover the supplies, I meanwhile try to hold her back if possible. Trading fire with a weak unit can be ok, but even that can be risky.
She is not as straight forward as Leia or Han and it needs a lot of practice to play her succsessful.

On 3/22/2019 at 8:03 AM, Alpha17 said:

Played a game against a guy with two pathfinders, Jyn, two AT-RTs, and 3-4 Rebel troopers. I won the game by the end of round two. (couple lucky rolls played a huge deal)

This isn't to say that Jyn and Pathfinders aren't tanky, it's just that they die pretty fast when you can focus fire on them. Extra white dice are helpful, but chances are if you're forcing your opponent to roll an incredible amount, you'll get plenty of hits though.

This, white dice are white dice. I've had Han with heavy cover and a dodge token take 5 hits in one go. It doesn't matter how many times you reroll, sometimes poor odds, are just poor odds.

Most Rebel figures can't stand up to a decent shot (some crits mixed in or 4-5 consistant hits) I think some of these newer units and even a decent first roll with aimed stormtroopers can eat a Rebel unit alive. Troopers are not easy to get Nimble going, even with Leia, and then you've got a 90pt crutch that doesn't provide much else (it makes your investment in troopers less economical as well)

On 3/16/2019 at 6:39 AM, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Why do people insist on using math to show what the best unit is, or average hits. Etc?

Just play what looks or you feel is cool.

Want to field palpatine? Do it! But so you can cackle and comment in the vein of “good.. good.. move your pathetic fleet troopers in range my fully operational at-st!”

Because that is what happens with Table Top Wargames that use dice.

Some people find this part of the game fun. Analyzing probabilities is very interesting and fun for some people.

Its also valuable because it can tell us if there are certain units that are problematic for the game.