Greethings, brether.

DISCLAIMERS FIRST: I do not try to start a discussion about if DH "Great Weapon" is overpowered or not. If you are into this kind of argue, enjoy
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=100&efcid=3&efidt=223173 I accept the stats and try to have "something different".

In one of the upcoming missions, my (actual) Dusk trodding party will face a huge mutant with an oversized wodden club spiked with iron nails. I like the picture of primitive brutality it delivers (you see, I am not to much into "real fights").

I wonder about my stats, compared to the real great weapon (which I assume to be an axe or sword).

For my "monstrous club" I would use

2d5+STB; PEN:1; Primitive and those quality that says "forget about a parry, son!"

Thougts?

Thanks!

The Great Weapon entry on p 138 specifically includes 'huge clubs'. As long as the weapon has to be wielded with two hands, it can be a great weapon. (Pun intended).

If you mutant is big and strong enough to wield it only in one hand, so be it.

Hi Revak! Thanks for replying

Yep, the entry does include "huge clubs" and no, the mutant in question will not be huge enough to use it one-handed.

The thing that makes me unsure is ...rather a thing of imagination. For the stats given to the great weapon, I imagine a greatsword ("Zweihänder", as we call them here in germany). Dastardly weapons. I could imagine...say, a huge double handed warhammer to have the same effect. Smashing bones and turning flesh to bloody pulp.

No, I have this picture of the "huge wooden club with iron nails". Is it brutal? Yes, for sure! Will it do damage? Yes, especially if wielded by a man-lumb of mutated muscle. But as much as the two weapons I mentioned earlier? Hmm...

That is the point where I start thinking about "something less" in case of stats. Or would you say even a "spiked club" would do the same hideous wounds? I am simply unsure

LOL, I would not even have a problem giving it the 'mono' quality for the nails.

A huge mass accelerated to high speeds focused on a small impact area = ouch!

Edit: It may not reflect real life too closely, but what the heck... it fits the bill as primitive and scary, doesn't it?

Hi Gregorious!

Here's my take, for what it's worth. I would just give it the stats for a Primitive Great Weapon, 2d10 damage, no penetrataion, with the Primitive quality, as well as the Tearing quality (for the spiky nails), i. e. 2d10+SB damage, Pen: 0, Primitive, Tearing. Just my two cents.

Hi SisterCat!

Tearing as well? As the two of you point towards the "2d10"-dice solution I think I will stick to this...but tearing? This would mean it would do much more damage to an unprotected target then said heavyaxe, greatsword or warhammer would do. A little harsh , wouldn´t it be?

At the moment, I think about 2d10; AP:1; Primitive; Unwieldy.

Yep, I think this will be it. Thanks to both of you!

Gregorius21778 said:

Harsh?!? This IS the grim dark future, after all.

But my version, while still nasty, is Primitive, after all. However, I can feel your pain in giving it TOO much nastiness. I guess I like to see the horror in my player's eyes too much. What can I say?

from france

why just the nails? the whole club; hey remenber in the radical handbook a sword made of a plant is sharp has a mono and treated as such. so why nit a club of the same plant or another.

the 8 spider said:

DISCLAIMER!: Dom, Katja, Flo oder irgendwer sonst welcher "den bärtigen Kai" als SL hat...hört auf hier zu lesen! Danke!

Hi Spider!

Thanks for pointing out. The reason why I "just" stick to a huge spiked club is that the "Unnatural Strenghtx2" Mutant is just one of six mutants that will be in and around a cabin in the woods guarding a malefic verminspeaker-which in leage with nurgle associated daemon (which is granting her additional "retinue" of some possessed/dybuk, some dusk-creatures and a dispayrer that will be regenerative until they dig out the the remains of the three childs whose remains had been desecrated in order to give him an "anchorage" in the real world.

So, as the pc storm the clearing (or botch their stealth) they will be up against some mutants, some more mutants coming out of the cabin, an oversized wolflike creature, (later) an appearing Dispayrer, a falcon like creature (near the cabin), a possed/dybuked captured human (with the witch in the cabin), something akin to an aggressive an sloth... and the malefic Verminspeaker/Wytch.

Did I mentioned that as soon as the fight outside goes downhill, she will call on a nearby swarm of Dusk Nightwings? (about 18).

Don´t panic! My players are a well armed bunch, consisting of an imperial void navy psyker, a Sororita and a duskborn pdf trooper. All in good armour and with modern firearms. But since I already have so much different enemey-types to have an eye on, I try not to overdue, it in the weapons department.

So, that´s my reason...that and the fact that since I watched "Escape from NewYork" as a teenager, I am found of this spiked-club-thing for no apparent logic reason. Just this "ain´t-it-kewl"-stuff

Sister Cat said:

...the more I think about your version, the more I like it. "No PEN" means armour offers good protection. "Primitive" means that GOOD armour will soak most of it and TEARING with 2d10+STB "base damage" means that you are in for a hard time if it hits an unarmored spot (a.k.a "the face").

THANKS!

Gregorius21778 said:

Glad I could assist.

Isn't being gruesomely cruel great fun?

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot. Be sure to also make those nails rusty, so the poor sap ... er, acolyte ... who gets hit with it has to either risk tetanus, or deal with some painful shots.

revak said:

Then you might as well give all edged/spiked weapons the mono quality, and just remove the concept of mono weapons altogether. How is a nail any more dangerous than a sharp sword? Or a pointy dagger? Or a crossbow bolt for that matter (damage 1d10 PRIMITIVE).

Gregorius21778 said:

I think penetration in primitive weapons only count against primitive armor, I'd not give the club Tearing (it's reserved for weapons like chainaxes and boltguns for a reason). 2d10 is enough, 3d10 lowest will constistently deal high damage and even worse if said mutant can get a Fury...

Also keep in mind you're making the club as good against unarmored targets as the Heavy Bolter is.

By RAW it can be considered a Great Weapon, but I liked your initial suggestion alot more. But to boost it a bit (2d5 is equivalent to the Kukri from IH), how about 1d10+2 (same as Cleaver from the book adventure) or 2d5+2 (for a higher average damage)?

Sister Cat said:

How bout sharpened railroad spikes. Nails are impressive but railroad spikes are downright jaw dropping. C'mon now if you're gonna be cruel and try to make the acolytes wet themselves, nothin does it better that a big hunking mutant carrying a tree limb with sharpened railroad spikes branching out of it in different directions.

from france

maybe several mutant ?

@Shibby

Thanks for the suggestion...but I have serious leg of railroads in the area . But do not worry, they are going to be the biggest, cruelst nails around. Besides this, my good guys & gals are far to hard boiled to to get really afraid (resistances shall be !DAMNED!). But I hope that they will direct fire against the big guy first. Gives the one with the feudal plate and the bastard sword a little more time...

@Friend & the Tearing
I think your are mistaking. "Tearing" is by no means "reserved" to bolters and chainweapons. It is simply a game effect resulting in higher damage output and has nothing to do with "real tearing".

The Hack Shotgun (simply a double-barrel shotgun) uses tearing to simlute the "double shot" (IH; p115)
The "Duelling Las" has the quality to simulate the "stronger" laser rays (IH; p120)
Same as the "MeatHammer" (for obvious reason here! ) (p;121 IH)
Even a primitive melee -blade- like the double-edged & jagged landrian "render" (P124; IH) has tearing.

I do not think that I am unbalancing the game. Besides, "PEN" from primitive weapons does count against "non primitive" AP (but only modified). The error in the IH regarding this point was fixed by the ERRATA (and I am pride to have been one of the first to point it out in this forums!)

Talking: Heavy Bolter / my-Club vs. unarmed
a yep, but that´s the fault of the game designers that made TB "unreductionable" andthereby "weake"r then armor. Since issues like this are already coming up with other, RAW-weapons I am not going to turn a blind third eye to this

. .but know you make me unsure about the base damage again! *sigh*

2d5+2+STB... no Pen... Primitive..yeah, this will at least allow me to overcome the military flak armour most of the time.. But on the other hand, this is a huge, two-handed club....and I -need- damage to be done.

EDIT: I think it will be 2d5+3(+STB); unwieldly; primitive; no pen. This is clearyl inferior to the RAW great weapon but gives a more decent damage output then the RAW onehande melee weaopn.

Gregorius21778 said:

Then my work here is done. Mwuhahaha!

Gregorius21778 said:

Hmm yeah I might have gone overboard with the Tearing thing, come to think about it I am guilty of giving muskets in my game Tearing as well. So point taken. But I still don't think this weapon should have it, pure damage is better IMO.

2d5+3 sounds nice. I'm guessing this is boosted by unnatural strength x2. Also you can give the mutant the Talent that gives +2 damage and the one that gives +2 critical damage in melee, those should help alot.

I'd just want to avoid the acolytes throwing away their technological superior weapons and picking up what is essentially a mean club.

Hi Friend!

"Tearing muskets"... hm... I felt the muskets some how "wrong" myself (especially after on a TV-show the showed in some "ballistic testing" what the wounds would be like..compared to our modern steel-case ammo that is doing much "blow thru"). I change the damage to 1d10+3 for a musket and gave all of them the semi-primitive quality (against primitve armour, they do not count as primitive. Against non-primitive, they do!)

Talking club damage & damage talents
Actually, the 2d5+3 are the "base damage" of this two handed, primitive, unwieldy weapon (and yes, I did away with the tearing). The mutant swinging it will be Strenght 40 with x2 "unnatural strenght" for a total of 2d5+11. Talking "bloody pulp". And thanks many-a-times for reminding me of this damage talents

Gregorius21778 said:

Muskets: Yes I raised damage here to 1d10+3 as well as Tearing, while I think I kept pistols at 1d10+2 (also Tearing).

In addition I removed the primitive trait... but I kinda like your semi-primitive one as well. But I did it mainly so that guardsmen in flak armor can be threatened by mass volleys from musketmen... and because muskets as so long reload time.

Of course this lead to the Noble in the group actually keeping a flintlock pistol (good quality from an early industrial world), and using the shot against some foes. Which I think is kinda cool

I actually don't like how primitive vs non primitive weapons and armors work in DH, it's too great a difference. Arrows and crossbows are useless against people in normal flak armor or mesh, while in RL studies have shown that arrows can in fact penetrate kevlar more easily than bullets. And is Carpace actually that much different than plate armor? Afaik the main difference in weight. Steel armor can withstand bullets (ballistic inserts in vests or often made of panzerstahl), and the main reason we don't encase our fighting men in think steel armor able to withstand rifles and machineguns is that it would be much too heavy (medieval plate armor was suprisingly thin).

However, the system is as it is. I don't care to change it all. Especially the doubling of modern armor against primitive projectives and blows makes modern armor too good I think.

So I just removed the primitive trait on gunpowder weapons at base range. On longer ranges it works like scatter weapons, thus gaining the primitive trait as the bullet has lost alot of force for being non-aerodynamic. This way although while retaining huge advantages in firepower, Imperial Guardsmen will have to be careful even against primitive soldiers with muskets.

BTW as I've just started Maggots in the Meat (against all warnings), I intend to have the local soldiers use Arquebuses, which has base damage +2 (for their lower pentration and speed compared to the heavier musket, and also give them swords and have some soldiers using primitive plate armor.

This is to seperate them from the last time the PCs encountererd muskets and to make it more similar to 16th century soldiers. Not much pikes though, as there is no cavalry to worry about (how common are horses in the Imperium anyway?). I like to use RL animals in DH alot, based on the assumption that since mankind has colonized space they brought with them alot of animals, some which survived. After the Dark Age of Technology came to its end alot of societies disappeared while the animals remained and thrived as nature took over.

In any case any idea what the Gun-barges in this module refers to? How can barges even make it in the sea? What kind of propulsion is appropriate on Acreage (it's not mentioned that they have steam power although they have wind power)... but can barges really have sails and still be called barges?

They are also described as "bristling with cannon" which I interpret has having cannons comparable to and old fashined Ship of the Line or at least heavy frigates, thus somewhere between 50 and 100 guns and crews in the hundreds.

Since my acolytes are 6-7 ranks above what the module is "balanced" for, I use every suggestion in the module to make things

Back to topic i.e your club:

Yes I understood 2d5+3 was the base damage. 2d5+11 is good, especially with the talents I mentioned (2d5+13 pretty much guarantees damage in every strike, although those with carapace will be almost unhurt.