I wanted to confirm a conclusion... Neither Jostero or Quickdraw are "after attacking" or "after defending" effects, so they don't wait until an attack finishes to trigger & resolve. Both can trigger in the middle of an attack's effects (before the aftermath step): Jostero when a non-defending ship takes damage (e.g. Deadman's Switch, or flipping a Direct Hit with a concussion missile), and Quickdraw shoots as soon as she loses a shield from anything.

What's the timing of that attack? Or especially, what does it interrupt ? If several things are on the ability queue, I assume they all get put on hold because the new Attack effect gets inserted at the front of the queue (because it's being triggered by something at the front of the queue, e.g. suffering damage from the attack or deadman or something else). Not sure how suffering attack damage works with that though -- I assume each hit or crit damage is a separate effect in the queue.

So if Quickdraw is about to suffer 5 damage (some of which is crits), does her attack insert right after the first damage to her shield, and the rest of the hits and crits have to wait? That would matter if there's a Blinded Pilot or Weapons Failure coming.

If Concussion Missiles is going to flip a bunch of damage cards on enemies, and one flips Direct Hit on a non-defender and triggers Jostero, does that put the rest of that attack's damage on hold during Jostero's attack?

Same deal with Deadman going off when the defender is dealt the lethal damage card -- additional damage cards and other effects in the queue get put on hold?

Or am I totally off on this? Is suffering damage a single atomic step? Though.. each waiting suffered damage can be put on hold by damage cards themselves; each damage must resolve before the next queued damage is resolved (you resolve Direct Hit before suffering the Hull Breach that comes later, for example).

However, there's one bit of wording that makes me think FFG maybe still intends their timing to go after the attack, and that's in the fairly strangely-worded "Bonus Attack" section, which seems written without Jostero, Rebel Han Gunner, or Quickdraw in mind (since they don't have to trigger during or after an attack, but they do count as bonus attacks). "If a card instructs a ship to perform a bonus attack, it performs an additional attack during the Aftermath step." That's clearly nonsense for Rebel Han Gunner's bonus attack, or the bonus attack made by Jostero or Quickdraw if it's not from during an attack. BUT, maybe it's not an accidental indication that if Jostero or QD trigger during a shot, they should wait until Aftermath? That said, it's almost like FFG didn't consider Jostero's and Han's attacks to be bonus attacks until they made the FAQ ruling that Han Gunner is a bonus attack; and so that wording in Bonus Attack could just be from that old thinking (or lack of thinking) about the edge cases.

Thoughts? How are others resolving this? Or has it not come up that much?

13 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I wanted to confirm a conclusion... Neither Jostero or Quickdraw are "after attacking" or "after defending" effects, so they don't wait until an attack finishes to trigger & resolve.

In First Edition, the FAQ explicitly ruled for Quickdraw that her timing was treated as "after defending" if she lost a shield from being shot at. FFG really doesn't want nested attacks, and with good reason: they're a rules nightmare.

Then with that said, I'll happily carry over the 1.0 ruling. Thanks!

I'll also agree that the timing is best resolved in the Aftermath Step.

For completeness, Aftermath abilities will resolve in the following sequence (player order doesn't matter any more, only attacker/defender):

1. After Defending abilities of the Defender, which do not make bonus attacks
2. After Attacking abilities of the Attacker, which do not make bonus attacks
3. Bonus attack abilities from the Defending Player
4. Bonus attack abilities from the Attacking Player

4 hours ago, Wazat said:

I wanted to confirm a conclusion... Neither Jostero or Quickdraw are "after attacking" or "after defending" effects, so they don't wait until an attack finishes to trigger & resolve. Both can trigger in the middle of an attack's effects (before the aftermath step): Jostero when a non-defending ship takes damage (e.g. Deadman's Switch, or flipping a Direct Hit with a concussion missile), and Quickdraw shoots as soon as she loses a shield from anything.

What's the timing of that attack? Or especially, what does it interrupt ? If several things are on the ability queue, I assume they all get put on hold because the new Attack effect gets inserted at the front of the queue (because it's being triggered by something at the front of the queue, e.g. suffering damage from the attack or deadman or something else). Not sure how suffering attack damage works with that though -- I assume each hit or crit damage is a separate effect in the queue.

So if Quickdraw is about to suffer 5 damage (some of which is crits), does her attack insert right after the first damage to her shiel  d, and the rest of the hits and crits have to wait? That would matter if there's a Blinded Pilot or Weapons Failure coming.

If Concussion Missiles is going to flip a bunch of damage cards on enemies, and one flips Direct Hit on a non-defender and triggers Jostero, does that put the rest of that attack's damage on hold during Jostero's attack?

Same deal with Deadman going off when the defender is dealt the lethal damage card -- additional damage cards and other effects in the queue get put on hold?

Or am I totally off on this? Is suffering damage a single atomic step? Though.. each waiting suffered damage can be put on hold by damage cards themselves; each damage must resolve before the next queued damage is resolved (you resolve Direct Hit before suffering the Hull Breach that comes later, for example).

However, there's one bit of wording that makes me think FFG maybe still intends their timing to go after the attack, and that's in the fairly strangely-worded "Bonus Attack" section, which seems written without Jostero, Rebel Han Gunner, or Quickdraw in mind (since they don't have to trigger during or after an attack, but they do count as bonus attacks). "If a card instructs a ship to perform a bonus attack, it performs an additional attack during the Aftermath step." That's clearly nonsense for Rebel Han Gunner's bonus attack, or the bonus attack made by Jostero or Quickdraw if it's not from during an attack. BUT, maybe it's not an accidental indication that if Jostero or QD trigger during a shot, they should wait until Aftermath? That said, it's almost like FFG didn't consider Jostero's and Han's attacks to be bonus attacks until they made the FAQ ruling that Han Gunner is a bonus attack; and so that wording in Bonus Attack could just be from that old thinking (or lack of thinking) about the edge cases.

Thoughts? How are others resolving this? Or has it not come up that much?

if quickdraws (or even josteros if there is a concussion missile involved) ability is triggered from an attack, it definitely is not triggered before the aftermath, as bonus attacks resulting from attacks are always performed during the aftermath.

other than that, it's down to the ability queue, which would be way easier to resolve if there were clearer guidelines regarding which effects are player effects and which effects are game effects.

when damage is dealt, that's game effects, so damage being dealt is not interrupted by player effects such as triggering jostero or quickdraw. it has to resolve first. so jostero and quickdraw have to wait until all the damage has been dealt before activating their pilot abilities.

deadmans switch is also a player effect, so it has to wait until all of what ever other damage has been dealt before deadmans switch happens and the ship is removed.

It's worth noting that Captain Jostero cannot trigger a Bonus Attack off of a Concussion Missle exposed Direct Hit. The damage card gets exposed in step 4 of the Attack, and the ship it gets exposed on is still considered "defending".

Jostero can very rarely trigger his ability in the Aftermath step, unless the target of the Bonus Attack is somehow the Attacker or another ship other than the Defender (e.g. Ruthless).

24 minutes ago, Hobologist said:

It's worth noting that Captain Jostero cannot trigger a Bonus Attack off of a Concussion Missle exposed Direct Hit. The damage card gets exposed in step 4 of the Attack, and the ship it gets exposed on is still considered "defending".

Jostero can very rarely trigger his ability in the Aftermath step, unless the target of the Bonus Attack is somehow the Attacker or another ship other than the Defender (e.g. Ruthless).

concussion missiles expose cards on other ships, not just the one that's defending.

31 minutes ago, meffo said:

concussion missiles expose cards on other ships, not just the one that's defending.

Oops, I forgot about the splash effect. Thank you for the clarification.

On 3/14/2019 at 3:57 AM, meffo said:

deadmans switch is also a player effect, so it has to wait until all of what ever other damage has been dealt before deadmans switch happens and the ship is removed.

Since Deadman‘s switch has been mentioned and this thread is about the timing: I would also argue that Jostero can trigger from his own Deadman‘s switch. Based on the rules reference under „Destroying ships“, points 3 and 4:

- If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before that ship is removed

- a destroyed ship‘s abilities remain active until that ship is removed yadedyadeyada-stuff-that-doesn‘t-apply-here

Thoughts?

5 hours ago, Marev said:

Since Deadman‘s switch has been mentioned and this thread is about the timing: I would also argue that Jostero can trigger from his own Deadman‘s switch. Based on the rules reference under „Destroying ships“, points 3 and 4:

- If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before that ship is removed

- a destroyed ship‘s abilities remain active until that ship is removed yadedyadeyada-stuff-that-doesn‘t-apply-here

Thoughts?

"DESTROYING SHIPS
A ship is destroyed after it has a number of damage cards that equals or exceeds its hull value. A destroyed ship is placed on its ship card.
• After a ship is destroyed in a phase other than the Engagement Phase, it is removed from the game.
• If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged, which is called simultaneous fire
• If an effect triggers after a ship is destroyed, the effect resolves immediately before the ship is removed.
• A destroyed ship’s abilities remain active until that ship is removed unless the ability specifies a different timing for the effect to end, such as “until the end of the Engagement Phase.” Such effects remain active until the end of the specified time."

"TIMIING
(...)
• After: The effect resolves immediately following the timing specified."


i'm going to say yes. it works. jostero can trigger off his own deadmans switch.

Seems like it should be pretty similar to Admiral Sloane handing out stress when her own ship is destroyed. I don't remember what community consensus was on that one, but I think it works, right?

17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Seems like it should be pretty similar to Admiral Sloane handing out stress when her own ship is destroyed. I don't remember what community consensus was on that one, but I think it works, right?

🤨 Key term; "another friendly ship". She doesn't hand out stress when the ship she is equipped to is destroyed. She isn't prevented from doing so if one in base contact with her ship is though (which would have been blocked if she had been range 1-3 instead of range 0-3).

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Key term; "another friendly ship"

*_*

Oops.