So, I'm currently GMing the starter set of L5R (5e) for some friends. I was wondering if it's considered "dishonorable", or socially weird, for shugenja and Monks to fight (there is a brawl scene in a bar). Yet, another part of the starater book makes it seem like monks and shugenja are acting dishonorably if they engage in fist fighting and what not. Any clarification would be great!!

Well, both are holy people, generally more ascetic than most samurai, so less concerned about worldly matters and issues of the flesh. So, in that sense, since they are considered to moral and spiritual guardians and shepherds for the people of the Empire, it isn't unreasonable for there to be a broad expectation that they'll conduct themselves with proper propriety. Even in our world, I think there's a general expectation that priests and ministers and imams and the like aren't going to go about flinging themselves into brawls, and would actually try to defuse and de-escalate such situations.

But.

The reality is that shugenja and monks are people. When we create them as characters, we go through the same 20 questions we do for bushi, etc. They have passions, flaws, beliefs, values, biases and the like that they bring into their interactions with others. So of course some of them are going to occasionally "lose it" and do things that certainly don't seem very "holy". Will that come across as unseemly or inappropriate to other Rokugani? Yes, it probably will, at least in a very general way. Shugenja and monks are, again, holy people, who are expected to act as moral compasses...so when they're throwing punches in a bar brawl, it would probably seem rather off-putting to a lot of other samurai.

There's another "but", though, and that's about the samurai witnessing it. Some, who have very traditional and specific views of the Rokugani clergy, may be outraged at this behavior. Others may be outraged that these holy figures are being subjected to such behavior. Either of these types may intervene. Others may choose to simply politely ignore what's going on, as though it's not happening at all. And still others may be intrigued, amused or even impressed. So, while I'd suggest there'd probably be a broad, diffuse "discomfort" with what's going on, the reactions to it by others would probably be all over the map.

Finally, I'd note that situations in which the monk or shugenja has been attacked, and are simply defending themselves, or a situation in which they are fighting in an actual skirmish or battle, are different. In such cases, it's not unreasonable for holy people to mix it up and most Rokugani would probably see it that way. But for shugenja or monk to go out drinkin', and end up in a swirling donnybrook of fists and sake bottles...well, yes, that would probably be seen as somewhat unseemly by most Rokugani.

19 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

But for shugenja or monk to go out drinkin', and end up in a swirling donnybrook of fists and sake bottles...well, yes, that would probably be seen as somewhat unseemly by most Rokugani.

Agreed.

But - to be fair - only slightly more unseemly than any samurai doing it. You're all supposed to be paragons of self-control and courtesy, after all.

It would depend on the personality of the monk/shujenga and the situation. After all, the same thing applies to Occidental priest and monks but no-one bats an eye (to use a western narrative example) at Friar Tuck thumping Robin Hood when they first meet.

43 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Agreed.

But - to be fair - only slightly more unseemly than any samurai doing it. You're all supposed to be paragons of self-control and courtesy, after all.

It would depend on the personality of the monk/shujenga and the situation. After all, the same thing applies to Occidental priest and monks but no-one bats an eye (to use a western narrative example) at Friar Tuck thumping Robin Hood when they first meet.

True, but I think eyebrows wouldn't be raised as much if a bushi ended up in a sake house brawl, as opposed to a shugenja. Moreover, there'd probably be some biases related to clans and families; it would probably seem more inappropriate for, say, a Crane or Phoenix to engage in fisticuffs than, say, a Crab (especially a Hida) or a Yoritomo. Reputations really do precede people!

But you're right...samurai are generally supposed to be better than all that. The fact that most of them aren't doesn't change the way it SHOULD be (and, again, the difference from the way things SHOULD be versus how they ARE is where a lot of the story's drama comes from!)

what happens in the sake house stays in the sake house. Furthermore, the Togashi order are specifically warrior monks.

generally speaking, rokugani probably don't expect to see monks and shugenja (or courtiers for that matter) engaging in fisticuffs.. at the same time, all samurai are warriors to a degree.. if a shrine is attacked, the monks there will fight.. it's their duty to protect the shrine. Shugenja will do whatever they deem necessary to defend the spiritual purity of the samurai, and if that means mixing it up with someone whose trying to desecrate the ancestral armor of the mouse clan, then the shugenja should be ready to fight.

To my knowledge, the only samurai who don't fight under any circumstances are the Ide family.

7 hours ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

what happens in the sake house stays in the sake house. Furthermore, the Togashi order are specifically warrior monks.

generally speaking, rokugani probably don't expect to see monks and shugenja (or courtiers for that matter) engaging in fisticuffs.. at the same time, all samurai are warriors to a degree.. if a shrine is attacked, the monks there will fight.. it's their duty to protect the shrine. Shugenja will do whatever they deem necessary to defend the spiritual purity of the samurai, and if that means mixing it up with someone whose trying to desecrate the ancestral armor of the mouse clan, then the shugenja should be ready to fight.

To my knowledge, the only samurai who don't fight under any circumstances are the Ide family.

The Asahina are famously pacifist, and Kakita Yoshi (at least used to) labour under a curse where he couldn't wield a weapon.

Monks can totally engage in fistfights, randomly jumping into a tavern brawl with Kihos blazing is a very monk thing to do in a "if understanding must come to you in a shape of my fist, then so be it" way.

The Shugenja are more complicated because they are not supposed to be martial period . So having Shugenja engage in a fistfight is like having a painter or a geisha do the same. It is just... a bizarre sight to behold. A Shugenja blasting a tavern brawl into pieces with a fireball is a whole different matter tho, and is more akin of a supernatural intervention for others than actually throwing weight in a fight.

Iuchi Shugenja are trained in Martial Melee.

probably to whip their horses.

I would think that there are a number of monastic groups that get into trouble all the time. And not just the Ise Zumi. Are you playing a Fortunist monk dedicated to Osano-wo? I bet you are not living a meek quite life. Bishamon? Similar. In fact they get mentioned in Emerald Empire for the headaches they sometimes cause ... and the trouble with standing them down without causing a local riot. The Shinsei-ist monks? Maybe a lot less "boisterous,"...but if a cause or circumstance feels right then they are probably not going to be shy about defending something either.

Bottom line. A monk in a bar room brawl may gain or loose honor. But it should be for the causes embraced and actions taken...not from the fact that a monk is fighting.

Like others, I think Shugen-ja fist fighting is an incident that raises more eyebrows. Even if its weird and a story remembered for years to come, I don't think they gain dishonor unless the choice to fight itself is dishonorable. Using the Kami to tear apart ordinary people (ronin) knocking heads is probably not very honorable...

My 2 cents

As the brawl is taking place before their gempukku, the lot are, technically, children. Don‘t judge them to harshly!

Monks are complicated, but Shegenja can have some interesting viewpoints:

First, Shugenja are still Samurai. Even a courtier has the duty to fight and, if necessary, die for their lord. This means that, even pacifistic Clans and families(Phoenix and Asahina) have some capability in combat, if even for just self defense.

Second, while they might have weapon skills, the most appropriate skills for self defense for a shugenja would include unarmed combat. Especially as some Shugenja Schools get access to kiho.

Third, a Shugenja engaging in a fist fight could be argued as representing Compassion and Courtesy, because they are not calling on the Kami for powerful offensive prayers in another Lords territory, and also by not calling on the Kami for a trivial, earthly situation.

This is how I would evaluate this sort of situation, anyway.

I'd base it on character concept. For monks in particular there are tons of drunken master tropes in East Asian literature, films, etc. I could certainly see a Dragon monk in this vein. And historically at least, Japanese sohei were infamous for brawling. They were essentially thugs hired by temples to fight off samurai and other undesirables.

2 hours ago, Masakiyo said:

I'd base it on character concept. For monks in particular there are tons of drunken master tropes in East Asian literature, films, etc. I could certainly see a Dragon monk in this vein. And historically at least, Japanese sohei were infamous for brawling. They were essentially thugs hired by temples to fight off samurai and other undesirables.

...and occasionally threaten and run protection rackets on the nearby ruler.

And we can't forget their responsibility of rooting out spiritual corruption, wherever it sows and festers with a good ol' fashioned inquisition!

Enter stage left: Mel Brooks' nuns

15 hours ago, T_Kageyasu said:

And we can't forget their responsibility of rooting out spiritual corruption, wherever it sows and festers with a good ol' fashioned inquisition!

Enter stage left: Mel Brooks' nuns

We still talking about monks here? 'Cos that's a job for the Asako shugenja.

On 8/15/2019 at 6:03 PM, T_Kageyasu said:

And we can't forget their responsibility of rooting out spiritual corruption, wherever it sows and festers with a good ol' fashioned inquisition!

Enter stage left: Mel Brooks' nuns

OY! (yabun)

To bring Kenny Rogers into this: Sometimes you have to fight when you're a man.

Meaning that no, starting a fight with hinin because you are drunk is not the shugenja way.

But not stopping thugs from beating up the helpless because you are too holy isn't, either.

This can be used as a great example of how difficult it is to be a good samurai: Honor might ask you not to brawl in a tavern, but Courtesy might call for your help. That struggle is very L5R.

Regarding monks, I would say noone would be surprised to hear the fought someone empty-handed, it is what they are known for. People would generally expect that the others started the fight, however.

Take the old TV series Kung Fu as an example. Kaine always gets into brawls without coming across like a thug.

Hey all, hate to dredge this up again (been a while since my group has revisted and just want to verify). So the bar fight is started by a bunch of ronin stirring up trouble, and the player characters got involved (a dragon monk, a Phoenix shugenja, and a lion from the Akodo family) were all involved, my heart ache with this is that in the next act (the final event in the topaz championship) It specifically states "shugenja and Monks, are strictly proscribed against the spilling of blood". I don't want to split hairs but I want to give my players the most knowledge possible, is it as minute a detail as "well I called upon a kami to roast this guy. Technically I didn't 'spill blood'"? I want my players to understand in-depth the importance of the social implications of their actions and that it's not quite the same as DND (they're coming from a DND background and I've never DM'd L5R). Im trying to assist my players in maintaining character congruence through having a well rounded knowledge of how a "typical" monk/shugenja acts and what is expected of them from Rokugani culture, so that they can make better decisions. Thanks all for your great responses and further clarification of the Rokugani culture!!!

On 11/30/2019 at 6:16 AM, Mwysor said:

I don't want to split hairs but I want to give my players the most knowledge possible, is it as minute a detail as "well I called upon a kami to roast this guy. Technically I didn't 'spill blood'"?

Redredging this from the Festering Pit of 3 months ago, in hopes it can still be useful to the OP:

What is, to a modern Western eye, splitting hairs would be anything but to a Rokugani. The concepts of morality that "we" are used are centered around individual intentions and consequences- we see a big difference between intentionally vs. unintentionally harming someone. Conversely, the moral line between personally hurting someone vs. taking indirect action to ensure that they get hurt by someone else is hazy at best. All these ideas are part of a generally Judeo-Christian and specifically Protestant philosophical tradition that is concerned with the conscience and "what's in your heart".

This is not the case for pre-modern, non-Western morality systems. Remember that the moral "good" which shugenja epitomize is not kindness, justice, or righteousness, but ritual purity . Blood and flesh is defiling by nature, regardless of the circumstances in which you came into contact with it. If you read old folk tales and legends, Asian or otherwise, you'll notice that very often a character who would seem like an underdog protagonist to us is instead the butt or villain of the story, because of their failure to uphold standards of propriety (even when it was completely out of their hands, because they were tricked, helpless, etc.). I just now read a Japanese folk tale in which a group of hunters are punished for allowing a desperate woman in need to stay with them, against a ritual proscription from women being in that place, by being turned into exploding mice. No joke.

The point of this is, if you really want to dive into the alterity of Rokugani culture, you have to set aside some of your familiar ideas about what a good/bad person or act is. In the case of your bar brawl, the factors that might play into society's appraisal of the scenario might be:

Did the shugenja come into contact with their flesh or blood

If so, did they ritually purify themselves afterward to remove that impurity

What caste were the combatants in? Fighting heimin is more defiling than fighting samurai (even ronin) and fighting hinin is extremely defiling

Did they make inauspicious use of invocations- in other words, did they make their problems into the kami's problems and thereby disturb the natural balance unnecessarily (this might depend a lot on the particular kami they called upon!)

Were they themselves wounded

Did anyone die

Was there a major disruption to the balance of the elements as a result of the fight- ex., did the sake house catch on fire and result in steaming hot casks of sake flowing into the village watershed

Remember that the shugenja serve their lords, but they also serve the will of the kami. Both feudal lords and ageless nature spirits are known to be less interested in what you meant by something than the consequences of what you did on the whole . Also, keep in mind that whereas we hold "fairness" up as a central ethical principle, and try to apply rules equally across different individuals in the same situation, while also only holding individuals accountable for their own actions, Rokugani prize order and propriety above all else. Think less in terms of individual agency and responsibility, and more in terms of social harmony and hierarchy, and you'll find it easier to navigate these kinds of questions.