Hello,

Here is a case I would like to discuss with you.

During a tournament, I was against a player who played some I2 ships and one I4. During engagement phase, he shot with I2s before the I4. He requested afterwards to have his shot with the I4, claiming the engagement is mandatory for every ship during engagement phase, even if we moved to the next Initiative step.

The Rules Reference states :

"Engagement Phase : During this phase, each ship engages, one at a time, starting with the ship with the highest initiative and continues in descending order.

- When a ship engages, it may perform an Attack.

- After all ships of a given initiative have engaged, all destroyed ships are removed. Then, continuing in descending order, this process continues with all ships of the same initiative engaging and then removing all destroyed ships."

If the engagement seems mandatory, the shot is optionnal. Does this make a missed opportunity or the forgotten ship may be able to attack retroactively to properly engage ? I'd like your thoughts on this. Thanks

Personally, as a judge, I'd rule that missing the engagement is not optional (because there are crits that trigger from engaging, and those happen regardless of shooting, available targets, or even being in range of an opponent (so, e.g., even if your opponent's last ship dies to a rock, you still technically go through the whole engagement phase, and if your Console Fire kills your last ship, you go to final salvo), but shoot is optional, so if you forget to engage a ship, then any effects triggered by its engagement take effect, but it missed the opportunity to shoot.

But that's a personal opinion as a judge, not a RAW statement. If I was playing the game against that opponent, I'd probably let him go back and take the shot as long as not too much had changed. I'm here to play against my opponent's best game, not to take advantage of their absent-mindedness.

I'd probably agree with @thespaceinvader for a completely legalistic, judge ruling. Engagement *has* to happen, so you go back and rectify it, but the attack is skipped as a missed opportunity. The same happens if a low-initiative ship neglects to attack during the end of the engagement phase: if you miss your utility shuttle's shot, and you're well into or past the subsequent system phase, that attack is forfeit.

Depending on the situation (casual game, vs. store league, vs. store tournament, vs. regional tournament, etc), I feel that it's best to allow the attack once or twice, as long as it's not giving your opponent a marked advantage for doing so. There are situations when it becomes distinctly advantageous to take shots out of order - Thane Kyrell, for example, is usually most effective when he shoots last among your ships; his high pilot initiative can make that difficult. You might want to use a lower-initiative ship to burn down shields before your high-init gunship unloads a Proton Torpedo at maximum efficiency. I wouldn't allow the attack in those situations.

In a nutshell, if the tourney is high stakes, and/or it grants your opponent a marked advantage, disallow the out-of-order shot. If it's a casual event, let them have it once or twice.

Thanks for your answers.

In a casual atmosphere I would definitly have let the shot happen without further question, but this was the top 8 of an Hyperspace Trial. Not that it would have changed a lot though. I was already nearly destroyed.

The TO ruled it as a missed opportunity but I like to clarify also for my personal knowledge.

2 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Engagement *has* to happen, so you go back and rectify it, but the attack is skipped as a missed opportunity.

In a nutshell, if the tourney is high stakes, and/or it grants your opponent a marked advantage, disallow the out-of-order shot. If it's a casual event, let them have it once or twice.

This sounds like the best to me. Engagement (for stuff like Console Fire) happens, but missed attacks don't (mostly).

I'll actually add something else: depends on who skips it. For example, If I get carried away, do my Init 4 and then my Init 2 before my opponent is able to get to their Init 3, they'd get the attack. Missed opportunity only makes sense one person actually has a chance to miss the opportunity, not if the other player skips it and doesn't give them a window.

54 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'll actually add something else: depends on who skips it. For example, If I get carried away, do my Init 4 and then my Init 2 before my opponent is able to get to their Init 3, they'd get the attack. Missed opportunity only makes sense one person actually has a chance to miss the opportunity, not if the other player skips it and doesn't give them a window.

Yeah this. I've had people flip their dials right after I say "I'm ready, you ready?" then try to tell me I missed a system phase opportunity

On 3/12/2019 at 8:49 AM, prauxim said:

Yeah this. I've had people flip their dials right after I say "I'm ready, you ready?" then try to tell me I missed a system phase opportunity

Same here, when my opponent ran from the system phase (bombs) to his (higher initiative) first ship's activation... skipping straight over my "beginning of activation" triggers. It's a good thing he's a good friend, and I could mock him endlessly about it!

Yeah, it's fine if it's a friend but can get pretty choppy otherwise. There's no way to take back revealed info.

They put it in the tournament rules...

"If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, that player cannot retroactively use it without the consent of their opponent."

also, in the regular rules (as you mentioned)...

"When a ship engages, it may perform an attack."

The way I would rule it, unless there is a negative affect (ie Crit) that should have resolved by engaging, then its a missed opp. The ship "engaged" but the player chose to not attack or use any of their optional abilities.