This just makes infinitely more sense. The notion that a Volger loses the Wary Trait, someone hailing from, by far, one of the worst, most dangerous and inhospitable hives in the entire Imperium, is patently absurd. I feel so strongly about this as to suggest that it should be errataed.

Thinking about it, I have to totally agree with you.

I can see it either way really. I could well imagine that your average volger is less on edge simply because they welcome the sweet release of death at the hands of murderer.

Or perhaps give the player the option of losing BOTH traits and replacing them with Paranoid?

There was an attempt to toss in a little "game balance" on the part of the writers that unfortunately conflicts with setting logic. The thought seems to have been along the lines of making "thug hivers" that have both an effective +10 Toughness (replacing a -5 with a +5) AND an inherent initiative bonus not becoming the "default" character choice, especially coming at the cost of only a -5 Fellowship, which the thug character really couldn't care less about.

ZillaPrime said:

I say if the designers would have had such qualms the Metallican Gunsling would have never been born

I might have been an attempt to balance it, possibly. But I don't think it doesn't make sense. After all it's an entire hive with millions, if not billions of people all living together and being forced to work in the same place. And it's probably more overcrowded that most hives because there are large parts of it that people can't go in.

I think it's more likely that that resistance to toxins replaces wary directly. After all slightly better reflexes aren't going to help against a slow death by poisoning.

I also assume that crime is lower in volg than most hives seening as the first thing a successful criminal is going to do is leave the place.

"I might have been an attempt to balance it, possibly. But I don't think it doesn't make sense. After all it's an entire hive with millions, if not billions of people all living together and being forced to work in the same place. And it's probably more overcrowded that most hives because there are large parts of it that people can't go in.

I think it's more likely that that resistance to toxins replaces wary directly. After all slightly better reflexes aren't going to help against a slow death by poisoning.

I also assume that crime is lower in volg than most hives seening as the first thing a successful criminal is going to do is leave the place."

I don't mean to come off as rude, but this just smacks of someone being a fan apologist. Look again through the entry for the Volg Hive. Consider how utterly deadly and inhospitable the place is, with a population of distrustful, anti-social, survivalist sociopaths who would sooner mug or kill than hang around each other, beneath which lies nests of deadly feral mutants that commonly surface to raid the hive (such that there are permanent stubber emplacements dotting its catwalks) and vast, sprawling deposits of toxic waste. Further, look at the passage on Pg 122 under Riot, Revolt and Calamity where it mentions Volg's population doubling as an outcome of food riots elsewhere only to return to more typical numbers over a few months due to attrition. Then there's the mention that, and I quote: "Volgers know not to trust such protection (the stubbers) or anyone but themselves, to keep watch on the dark, and keep their mercykiller close. To survive in Volg, one needs more than just strength or even luck; one needs steel in the soul, an utter lack of conscience, constant vigilance and perhaps a touch of destiny." I'd say that passage almost in its entirety is about as black and white as it gets in support of retaining Wary.

In summary Accustomed to Crowds by _far_ makes the most sense of the two attributes to lose, both because Volg is for obvious reasons undoubtedly one of the lesser populated hives, and because few on Volg surely like actually gathering and moving around in crowds, also for obvious reasons. Besides this, there is also a definite multitude of factors actively in favour of retaining Wary as detailed above. Granted, Resistance(Poison) also makes a great deal of sense, though it should definitely not substitute for Wary as the Volger's fellow man is just as, if not more deadly than his environment.

"Or perhaps give the player the option of losing BOTH traits and replacing them with Paranoid?"

That could work, despite the Talent being strictly better than both Traits combined, though I acknowledge that ultimately, this may only save him 100-200 XP in the long run. I personally think Wary is fine though. If I were to add any additional Talents to the Volger, I'd probably include Resistance(Poison) with the Born Survivor Trait at an additional cost.

"There was an attempt to toss in a little "game balance" on the part of the writers that unfortunately conflicts with setting logic. The thought seems to have been along the lines of making "thug hivers" that have both an effective +10 Toughness (replacing a -5 with a +5) AND an inherent initiative bonus not becoming the "default" character choice, especially coming at the cost of only a -5 Fellowship, which the thug character really couldn't care less about"

An attempt to balance? Maybe, since +1 Initiative is in most cases more useful than not treating crowds as difficult terrain, but given the litany of balance failures in IH even post errata, and the fact that they could _easily_ compensate with other deficits that make sense (a random mutation or Corruption Points perhaps), I don't really see this as a meaningful justification. That said, I'd say there's absolutely no issue with Volgers being the obvious choice for a combat orientated hive thug, as the default hive world is an excellent and obvious choice for the sociable one.

I think paranoid could do the trick. After all, all "normal" hivers will be able to buy paranoid "as well" (either from their career or as an elite advance). It would even "handicap" the Volg Hiver since he is not able to "stack" that way. ..

...but to be honest, I would have no problem to stick with "Wary" and get rid of "Crowds". They are Volg Hivers, after all. What else would such a background be appealing for?

Social Conman? - will stick to regular hivers
Tech Priests? - oh good emperor, yes this could work...*shudder*
Adepts? - weird choice, wouldn´t it?
Cleric? - sweet love of the creed, none but the Red Redemption, me claims
Psyker? - now thinks get UGLY...
Arbitrator? - Mean bully, with TONS of Toughness

Except for really interested roleplayers, me thinks that Volg Hivers where INTENDED to give the possibility to to beef up once character for backyard brawls and dirty gutterfighting... and a sanction to play it with a mean streak as wide as a Titans stride.

I don't see any problem with making the switch suggested by the OP. It will make Volg Hive even more similar to Hive Mutant, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Both are, at their origins, the dregs of the Imperium - one by nature and the other by (lack of) nurture.

Lasers said:

Actually that is a bit rude making assumptions about me because I don't imediately agree. I've read the stuff on Volg (which I wasn't able to do yesterday) and most of the description is aptly represented by the populous having a 10 points lower fel than your average hiver.

But you're extrapolating as much as me when you say it isn't crowded when it mentions 10's of millions of people, shanty towns and generally much higher population than anyone expected and just because they don't like each other doesn't mean they have the luxury of spaces to themselves when they all probably work and live the same places.

Although I am naturaly dubious about changing this package because reading these forums make it sound like 90% of techpriests come from Volg.
For PC's i've always counted wary as better than acustomed to crowds but for people who live their whole lives in a hive 'acustomed to crowds' is probably better especially when that crowds on the verge of riot.

Even so, there's a case for both, and probably a couple of other traits that seem to be appropriate. But you could let people start by buying paranoid and/or resist toxins (probably others).

"Actually that is a bit rude making assumptions about me because I don't imediately agree. I've read the stuff on Volg (which I wasn't able to do yesterday) and most of the description is aptly represented by the populous having a 10 points lower fel than your average hiver."

You mean to tell me you read it in its entirety, and you _still_ think removing Wary rather than Accustomed to Crowds is a more reasonable and sensible choice?

"But you're extrapolating as much as me when you say it isn't crowded when it mentions 10's of millions of people, shanty towns and generally much higher population than anyone expected and just because they don't like each other doesn't mean they have the luxury of spaces to themselves when they all probably work and live the same places."

But I'm not. I'm saying relatively speaking, Volg is a lesser populated hive, and even IF they are forced to work and mill about in crowds, that doesn't mean the Volgites ever become really accustomed to or comfortable with them given the sociopathic and dangerous nature of the populace; enough to get by perhaps, but probably not to the extent that a normal hiver is.

"Although I am naturaly dubious about changing this package because reading these forums make it sound like 90% of techpriests come from Volg.
For PC's i've always counted wary as better than acustomed to crowds but for people who live their whole lives in a hive 'acustomed to crowds' is probably better especially when that crowds on the verge of riot."

"Even so, there's a case for both, and probably a couple of other traits that seem to be appropriate. But you could let people start by buying paranoid and/or resist toxins (probably others)."

I personally don't get that sense, though Volgites do have sociopathy and a relative lack of emotion in common with Tech-Priests. Again, while Volgers may have lived their whole lives in a hive, they do so with people they don't want to interact with or even get near for the most part, so there is a justification for removing Accustomed to Crowds whereas there is basically none for removing Wary.