Our group finally completed our Ascension last week, and all was great until the choosing of our commisionable items came up. Using the RAW, and with 40 Influence to start with, all thoughts of ordering combiweapons or advanced cybernetics went out the window (tests at about -20 or -30 leave very little chance of success and lots of chance to lose permanent Influence).

Even ordering something as mundane as a best quality Boltgun was -10!

So my question... should the rules for population availability apply to commisioning rolls? So in the Tricorn on Scintilla such things would be considerably easier to get hold of?

S.K.

I would say so. Since it's availability plays into the difficulty of the requisition, and an items availability is determined/modified based on population and planet, then it most definitely should. After all, requisitioning or commissioning a hand cannon on a feral world would take a hell of a lot of resources and clout just to find the one guy who might be able to do it for you and get him to do it where as commissioning one in Gunmetal City should be about as easy as walking down the street or waiting for that gunfight over there to end. Table 1-5 should be the availability of the item/service/what ever after modifications for population from DH tables 5-3 through 5-5 are consulted as well as any additional modifications the GM wishes to implement based on location and other factors.

Also, don't forget there are other ways of modifying your Influence check. There are Contacts who can reduce availability of course (a true boon in the Influence System... you might want to pick one up!) as well as Peer and Good Rep talents each give you a +10 as long as you're going to that group for the commission for a total possible +20. Likewise, with GM approval, a social skill may be tested with each DoS adding +2 to the Influence for that test. Also, dressing and grooming to awe the masses and show your power as a Throne Agent can grant up to a +20 on the Influence test as well.

I'd like to add that the Availability rules need a little consideration. They list Availability by Population, which means you need to consider the area in which you "go shopping". You do not go "shopping" on Scintilla. Just as I don't go "shopping on Earth". Contacts and global communications networks may help, but usually it does not help that Planet X has a population of billions if you're stuck in Sector 17, level 2 which has 3000 souls.

Slight derail: am I one the only one who finds it rather weird that modifiers to an Influence roll are so much higher for appearances than for social skills? Even someone scoring 5 successes on a Charm roll will only get +10, while the appearance modifiers go up to +20...I would certainly reverse these, as a very good social roll is much harder to achieve than the appropriate attire.

This is why the game includes the magical "further modifiers subject to the GM's judgement"

Solomon Kane said:

Why are you wasting time and effort using influence to acquire something this mundane? Just buy it. With ascended rank incomes this won't be a problem.

Remember influence-acquired objects have to be returned, so you expend all that effort and influence to acquire a BQ boltgun...that you have to give back! Something you can simply buy and keep...

Save your influence for favours and calling in really big resources like starships.

Also, why risk revealing your Inquisitorial presence via exerting influence just to do a bit of shopping?

Solomon Kane said:

If you feel they should, go for it! I see no reason why they shouldn't and in all rules debates, common sense should rule or you get into D&D 3e 'peasant railgun' territory...

Personally i think the suggestion in Ascension that the GM should consider adopting Profit Factor from Rogue Trader is a also good one...

Luddite said:

Not necessarily. If you use your Influence to Commission an item from an artisan, you don't have to return it -it is your property as it was made for you. However, the item you commission has to be Best Quality and you have to wait 1d5 - Influence Test DoS in weeks before it is completed, but it will be yours. More on Commissioning Items can be found in Ascension pg 136.

Alternately, you can permanently Requisition an item but doing such adds a -20 to your Influence test to acquire the item. However, doing such will get you the item immediately (within reason). Finally, if you really wanted to, you could just keep the item that you Requisitioned for a days use, but doing such would cost you Influence equal to 10% of the Influence of the organization who once owned the item you just took. It might be better in such a circumstance to just use the "This One Thing I Ask" rule. More on requisition and duration can be found in Ascension pg 15.

I also think, though I might be completely wrong here, but "Pocket Money" box seems to imply that you either chose to use the Influence System for item acquisition, money, etc, for the game or you chose to use the old income system and "buy" the item, but you don't mix them. Solomon's GM seems to have chosen to go the Influence Requisition rout as opposed to the Income rout.

I'd say it is even very difficult to not use the influence system to purchase items, as there are no prices on the new equipment...

But the best quality boltgun is clearly out of range for a newly instated inquisitor.

You have 40 Influence, the boltgun is very rare, upped to 'nearly unique' by the best quality and you want to keep it. This would make it -70 to requisition.

However, as I understand the commision rules, you just order the plain vanilla item, boltgun -20, and the artisans go out of their way to craft you a best quaility version that befits an Inquisitor.

Thus, you will have a 20% chance to get one + any applicable peer and good reputation.

Just my 2 thrones (influence )

From going over the system, with Influence and requisitioning/commissioning items, it's, like most other aspects of the system, highly dependant on modifier manipulation and hoarding. Going with the Boltgun example:

Just going to some random hive district of 10,000 - 100,000 souls to find a fella who can make one for you would result in a -30 to the Influence Test. However, having Peer (Adaptus Mechanicus) and going to that same district to seek out your contact, the Weapon-Mystic Dorn of the Adaptus Mechanicus who can increase the availability of bolt and sp weapons by 2 levels would result in a +0 to the Influence Test. If you also went there in full Best Quality Hexogramiticaly Warded or Sanctified Carapace Armour bedecked and bedazzled with more =][='s then you could count, a swarm of Load-Hailer Skulls and Censor Skulls to sing the praises of the Emperor (and Omnisiah for this occasion) and 20 conscripted valet-at-arms to announce your presence and glory, then you'd definitely get that +20 for appearance raising your total to get that Boltgun made to +20 (60% chance for a new Inquisitor)... and that's before schmoozing your contact and lauding on about his great achievements and mastery of weapons manufacture for the Emperor/Omnisiah for a few more odd points; lets say 4 or so being the common outcome for a decently social inquisitor. Another +10 could be heaped on top of that if your contact is a Magus of the Lathes and you go there for the Boltgun, or you have Peer Nobility, your contact is in GMC, and you go to one one of the Fanes of Gunmetal City (assuming one produces Boltguns). And all that's before further augmentation for Good Reputation.

With all of that, a newly minted Inquisitor with 40 Influence can get a modifier for commissioning a Boltgun of +40 - +50 (depending how well the schmoozing goes) for a total of 80% - 90% chance of getting that gun made for you. Likewise, with a bonus like that, there's no chance in hell of your Influence going down due to a bad roll ;-)

Just like combat or anything else really, it's all about approaching the situation from the most advantageous angle you can muster.

Hi Graver,

Can you explain with less fluff for the slow ones (me)?

I start with 40 influence, -50 for nearly unique, -20 for keeping it, +10 peer, +10 good rep, +20 appearance, +4 charm = 14

I did not include the modification due to population, as I don't perceive it in the RAW for influence and there is no entry for nearly unique there, either.

What did I miss?

Edit: This includes the permanent modifier in case you wanted the best quality boltgun for non-personal use

ZillaPrime said:

@ Revak : you need to the "-20 for keeping it" part, this thread (at least to start with) was about commissioning, not requisitioning. Also the quality of the weapon has no bearing on the roll, its just on simple rarity...

@ Graver : Thanks for your comments, i did kinda think that population availability should come into it..

@ Luddite : You hit the nail on the head for me in your post. Even with all the extra accoutrements and cherubim and laud hailers of graver's example, the commissioned item is still only a BOLTGUN, admittedly a best quality one at that, but still something that by level 9 you would expect the characters to have aquired long ago if they had wanted to... And the difficulty level to order one in is ridiculous. Especially since you could ask the GM for 9000 thrones in expense money and go buy one...

Looking at something more befitting an Inquisitor (incidentally this is what our Sororitas wanted) - a Combi Stormbolter/Meltagun with underbarrel grenade launcher, targeter, and all the trimmings... the Influence modifier was something like -70!!!

So in summary, joining the much vaunted ranks of the inquisition, where wealth is no object and where mere mortals fear to even gaze upon you and your mighty weaponry and armour.. the best a starting inquisitor can get with an decent chance (70% or so) - a best quality lasgun...

Am i missing something - especially since the book is filled with funky new equipment and stuff...

S.K.

revak said:

Ok, I did use the Availability modified for population as well as latter, adding a small amount for location -it just seems logical to do such ;-)

The above number I arrived at: Boltgun (very rare) made (scarce) by Contact = +0. Best Quality makes Boltgun (very rare) again = -20. Being in an area with a 10,000 - 100,000 population takes Boltgun from (very rare) to (rare) = -10. Seeking Boltgun in a place where Boltgun is manufactured should have an effect and I opted for a conservative +10 (or the effects of looking in an area 1 population size larger) = +0. Making the best possible entrance under the appearance rule for a +20= +20. Having the appropriate Peer Talent gives a +10 = +30. Having the appropriate Good Rep Talent for a +10 = +40. Depending how well the Social Skill check goes a further 0 - 20 Influence points could be added for a total of +40 to +60 for the Influence check (I forgot to put in the maximal amount for the social schmoozing in my previous post, sorry).

Without the judgement call and the population modifier it would be:
Boltgun (very rare) made (scarce) by Contact = +0. Best Quality makes Boltgun (very rare) again = -20. Making the best possible entrance under the appearance rule for a +20= +0. Having the appropriate Peer Talent gives a +10 = +10. Having the appropriate Good Rep Talent for a +10 = +20. Depending how well the Social Skill check goes a further 0 - 20 Influence points could be added for a total of +20 to +40 for the Influence check., a bit higher then you figures ;-)

@Solomon: Even barring population modifiers and GM "It Makes Sense" rulings, remember that the 40 Influence, for an Inquisitor, is a reflection of him being the new kid on the sector-wide block. Now, keeping that in mind, it would be difficult for the new kid on the block to seek out and get an artisan to craft a supper special rare and sacred weapon. That's something done with time, perhaps after you've established a bit of a reputation and a stable of favors and contacts (your influence being a bit higher). That doesn't keep such things out of your hands though. Even as a newly minted Inquisitor, you still have access to anything you can find. You don't really need to have a large personal arsenal, you can simply use someone else's for a mission or two and cash in on the +20 modifier, but that only really counts if the owner of the arsenal you are using has 40+ Influence themselves. If they don't, you can pretty much request anything of them and know that there is little they could politically (and thus Influence-wise) do to you and your standing as per "The Power of the Rosetta" on pg 17.

One other point, the Boltgun isn't mundane really, it's a rare thing... well, outside of the halls of power and the rich, and thus its very rare nature. Granted, it could seem mundane by 9th rank, but remember, generally speaking, it's still a "very rare" sight and things to find ;-) You are correct, by 9th rank, if a Throne Agent wanted a Bolter, he would have a Bolter, but that would be covered by the game you played the last 8 ranks through ;-) In the case of a newly created character, I reckon such would be a case of a GM's call on what is reasonable and logical as usually must be done when making a character with advanced XP from scratch.

Graver said:

That's not the way I saw it, though my copy of Ascension is currently missing, so I can't double-check. Still, as far as I'm concerned, the use of influence to obtain money seems to exist for practical reasons more than anything else - sometimes, cash is useful to have around, even if you possess the authority not to need it.

Using your influence is a matter of political savvy, negotiation, power and connections, no matter what you're doing. Commissioning or requisitioning an item through influence directly requires that no money change hands - the influence you possess is sufficient. Using influence to obtain money (from the accounts and other sources your influence provides), however, gives you the means to obtain items and services without flashing your credentials and advertising your presence, as well as allowing a Throne Agent to still have cash to bribe informants and similar things for which influence is inappropriate.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I see the use of Subtle Influence as the mechanic of getting things done without flashing your credentials ;-) Bribery, for me, would just be a use of Subtle Influence modified by various social and scummy type skills to manipulate an individual or group of individuals... no need to styart bringing matters of hard cash numbers into it. But then again, your view is just as valid (and useful) in looking the rules over. I guess my personal prejudices against the monetary system (every time currency comes up, things either start feeling too much like a fantasy adventure or too consumerist to suit my view of 40k) and my desire to see it completely eradicated color my view and interpretation of the rules a bit.

Graver said:

Graver said:

I see the use of Subtle Influence as the mechanic of getting things done without flashing your credentials ;-) Bribery, for me, would just be a use of Subtle Influence modified by various social and scummy type skills to manipulate an individual or group of individuals... no need to styart bringing matters of hard cash numbers into it. But then again, your view is just as valid (and useful) in looking the rules over. I guess my personal prejudices against the monetary system (every time currency comes up, things either start feeling too much like a fantasy adventure or too consumerist to suit my view of 40k) and my desire to see it completely eradicated color my view and interpretation of the rules a bit.

Same here. I've been waiting a long time to get rid of the DH monetary system. I was about to port over the Proft Factor from RT when Ascension came along.

Btw what would be the Influence Level of a group of starting Acolytes? 5, 10 or maybe 20?

Meatpuppet said:

It would depend a bit on the characters and their background but, just going off of the chart of Influence Levels, I'd say no higher then 5 for a freshly minted rank 1 cell. However, a character with a Noble backgoround would add +5 to the Influence total of the group. It seems a bit low and their options for owning Stuff will be limited, but with enough modifier manipulation on their part, it might work, and getting it up higher through successfull missions would become even more important to them.

Edit: Or, perhaps to illustrate the class divisions in Imperial Society, the Income and Social Class Table 5-1 could be used as a guide. The group would start with a base 0 Influence. Each character of Outcast and Drudge class would add a +1 to the Influence total. Each character of Military or Supine class would add a +2 to the total. Each character of Learned or Trading class would add a +3 to the total. Each character of the Mechanicus or Ministorum would add a +4 and every character of the Noble class would add a +5.

So, a group of 4 acolytes consisting of an underhive Scum, a psyker court Fortune Teller, a rank and file Arbiter, and a Noble born Guardsmen would have a total starting Influence of 11 (1+3+2+5). After completing their fist mission, assuming they didn't bork it up completely, would raise their total to 12 to 16 as well as, by then, opening up Rank 2 and allowing them to purchase most of their first Peer talents. Even if that group did poorly and their total is now a 12, the Arbiter can still get a 54% chance (12 Influence + 10 Peer + 20 duration + 2 inf for skill checks + 10 being in uniform and saluting right) of being able to requisition a Combat Shotgun from the Arbites armoury for a single mission (or a 36% chance of getting one assigned to him permanently) without taking population size or any GM bonuses for going where combat shotguns are and doing what you rightfully should to get one (a +10 at least). It seems like that might work...

Graver said:

I still see a distinction; subtle influence is still influence. It still comes with the same risks and difficulties, it's merely less overt. Cash transactions are anonymous, swift and can be more readily used undercover where even a subtle use of influence might arouse suspicion (use your Inquisitorial authority to coerce a mercenary, and you'll likely get a different result than if you simply handed over a case of money).

Beyond that, it's also fairly difficult to take part in an auction using political influence - the events in House of Dust and Ash provide a good example of a situation where using Inquisitorial authority to obtain cash is preferable to a more direct use of authority.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Ya, we just see it differently ;-) I can see Subtle Influence being the cash you have on hand as well... after all, nothing greases the machine quit like wealth and that is included in the Influence. I just see it as a package all-in-one deal. After all, you have to roll Influence to get the cash so when suing the cash, in the end, it is the Influence that did it for you and enabled what ever you used the cash on to happen ;-)

Meatpuppet said:

Graver said:

Graver said:

I see the use of Subtle Influence as the mechanic of getting things done without flashing your credentials ;-) Bribery, for me, would just be a use of Subtle Influence modified by various social and scummy type skills to manipulate an individual or group of individuals... no need to styart bringing matters of hard cash numbers into it. But then again, your view is just as valid (and useful) in looking the rules over. I guess my personal prejudices against the monetary system (every time currency comes up, things either start feeling too much like a fantasy adventure or too consumerist to suit my view of 40k) and my desire to see it completely eradicated color my view and interpretation of the rules a bit.

Same here. I've been waiting a long time to get rid of the DH monetary system. I was about to port over the Proft Factor from RT when Ascension came along.

Btw what would be the Influence Level of a group of starting Acolytes? 5, 10 or maybe 20?

I am pretty sure they wouldn't have influence. If I wanted to abandon money as a system for my games I would determine their inquisitors influence and have him make tests for the characters. The frequency of the tests and the quality of goods attempted to obtain would be dependent on how successful the cell has been in the past and how important the acquisition seems to future success.

Actually that is a lie. I wouldn't have the inquisitor test at all. They would just be provided equipment appropriate for their rank and training modified by how well they have been doing on adventures thus far, I would need no mechanic. If acolytes wanted to obtain something independent of their inquisitor I might dummy up some system of acquisition where they need to make a d100 test against an arbitrary number assigned based off of social status, rank, how often they have been testing for acquisitions, and unique situational modifiers (you did the seller a favour in the past, you have something to barter that the seller couldn't buy with money, etc).

Graver said:

Well thought out

Thanks Graver