Honestly, I keep reading quite a lot to keep up with all the rules and special abilities, but I am a bit confused about all the new stuff coming up. It's getting harder and harder to keep up with all the rules, special rules and game effects.

Yeah, maybe it's just me getting older...

Anyway, I feel like I am the rules-guy in my local gaming group. Usually people turn to me, when they don't really remember what will happen after flying through a debris cloud instead of flying over an asteroid. Things won't be easier to remember with ion clouds an all the other new stuff coming up.

Of course I am not talking about ion clouds in particular.... it wouldn't be much of a problem, if that's the only change to the game. But it feels like there will be a whole lot of completely new game effects coming with the new factions.

We are just a bunch of normal guys, with normal jobs and normal families. There is not so much time for rocket science and studying XWing rules.

Please keep this game easily playable.

I think second edition is much more accessible in this regard than first edition was at the end, and there's always Hyperspace if you want to keep the card count down.

It looks like the Republic and especially Separatists might be more complex and difficult to play/understand than the other three, though. If FFG is going for a 'hard mode' I'm all for that, but maybe new players should be made aware of that before they buy a bunch of Vultures that'll just explode horribly in the first engagement.

I think the designers are trying to ensure each of the seven factions have a distinct feel. But I agree that in the process the game is getting more complicated. Seperatists will certainly require some getting used to, maybe their games will need to be an hour and a quarter. Back in the 1e days people posted a lot about rule accretion and powercreep, wich culminated with a consolidation of the rules known as 2e. this seems to be just more of the same at a faster pace.

you could be a stick in the mud like me and only play XWing to recreate battles involving a Death Star 😜

I don't find the knowing of things tricky. Theres not much I'm surprised or confused about when viewing squads, encyclopedic knowledge of everything available kinda goes hand in hand with my level of interest.

It's the remembering of things whilst playing that I have a problem with. I'm well aware of what Proxy mines do, but that's no guarantee I'll set my dials with that knowledge in mind

Even remembering my opponent has ships he can move in my way is not automatic for me....

For better or for worse, increased complexity is just the price you have to pay for an ongoing game with continual expansions. They need to keep releasing new mechanics and etc from time to time, because the alternative is that the game starts to get stale. If you want an idea for what X-Wing might be like if they weren’t continually releasing new stuff, go take a peek at the Armada forums (spoiler alert: they’re not exactly bubbling over with positivity at the moment).

One of the difficult things right now is that we don't really have the "rules" for some of these new things. We have explanations of the rules but not necessarily the actual rules that we can fit together and categorize with other actual rules. So it seems like there is a bunch of complicated stuff when we just haven't been given the complete picture.

Don't let the amount of things confuse you with those being complicated things.

This is again back to not having the whole picture. It is difficult to "see" what some of these clone pilots do because they aren't on the table together in front of us. We have knowledge of what an effect is but not understanding of how it affects the game because we haven't been able to get the entire picture.

It just seems overwhelming cause it is all in our head and not in front of us as cards and tokens and ships.

We are getting to the point where the quick reference sheet on page twenty of the rulebook could be expanded and re-arranged a bit as its own download.

I personally try to know the rules that affect what I'm flying. I'll let my opponent explain and wacky mechanic or interaction that his list does. Eventually you develop a general idea of most rules.

You can always play different formats, like Battle of Yavin. (I would have said Hyperspace, but that's getting the crazy new shizit anyway, so when it comes to complexity it's at the same level as Extended at this stage.)

2E has kind of failed at its goal of reigning in the complexity creep and making rules and abilities clearer to understand.

I mean, just look at the whole deal with the turret arc symbols and all the confusion that has created.

11 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I mean, just look at the whole deal with the turret arc symbols and all the confusion that has created.

...que? Seriously, I haven't seen anything about that?

IMO the heart of the issue is that XWing is based a few simple mechanics. Establish squads. then based on the squads, I roll dice, you roll dice, and then they are compared, much like Risk, and ultimately whoever achieves more positive results from the dice wins (weighted by number of hit points on either side). Then they layered a clever mechanic for hidden movement. And after that they started layering on special rules.

It seems like after a while the game becomes more about the special rules then the core mechanics and at this point, again IMO, the game starts to feel overly complex. It seems to me that to keep the game “healthy” they need to further develop the core mechanics before they add more special rules. Perhaps separating pilot cards and ship cards, perhaps further exploring hitting and damaging a target. Who knows. but it just feels like what seem to be faction specific special rules (we will see if Force powers feel different with a whole squad of republic ships have them) bolted on to a simple game do not enhance the experience.

🙈 💕 😈 💩

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

...que? Seriously, I haven't seen anything about that?

Mostly, it's stuff like Outmaneuver--front arc effects with forwards pointing turrets--and Veteran Turret Gunner and Rebel Han Gunner--what constitutes a different turret arc?

For example, after Han gunner lets Chewie shoot at Init 7, suppose Airen Cracken lets him rotate. Where can Chewie shoot at his own Init 4? It's not too bad, but at times it's a little awkward.

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 12:31 AM, Schu81 said:

It's getting harder and harder to keep up with all the rules, special rules and game effects.

Way better than keeping up with errata, no?

One tactic is to just not play that stuff. Like @PanchoX1 said, just know your stuff and let the other guy deal with his own complexity.

Personally, I avoided Harpoon Missiles not because it was broken, but because I didn't want to deal with latent effects.

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 5:58 AM, BenDay said:

It seems to me that to keep the game “healthy” they need to further develop the core mechanics before they add more special rules.

I mean, isn't each "development of a core mechanic" a special rule?

Quote

Perhaps separating pilot cards and ship cards, perhaps further exploring hitting and damaging a target.

Each of which immediately doubles the current rules/game mechanics.

Quote

but it just feels like what seem to be faction specific special rules (we will see if Force powers feel different with a whole squad of republic ships have them) bolted on to a simple game do not enhance the experience.

I would argue the opposite. Faction-locked special abilities means you can ignore them (for the most part} if you don't play that faction.

9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Way better than keeping up with errata, no?

One tactic is to just not play that stuff. Like @PanchoX1 said, just know your stuff and let the other guy deal with his own complexity.

Personally, I avoided Harpoon Missiles not because it was broken, but because I didn't want to deal with latent effects.

I mean, isn't each "development of a core mechanic" a special rule?

Each of which immediately doubles the current rules/game mechanics.

I would argue the opposite. Faction-locked special abilities means you can ignore them (for the most part} if you don't play that faction.

Is each development to a core mechanic a special rule? If everything is core is anything core? I suppose it could be, but I was thinking that a core mechanic is the essential part of a game that makes it fun to play. It would be something like hidden orders (what drew me to XWing in the first place) and the special rules would be all the stuff that lets you reposition after knowing that information, for exsample. So a special rule would be something that gives a player an advantage in certain situations and at the same time lessens the value of being good at a core mechanic. Sort of like a crutch.

For me the fundametal mechanics are list building, planning/guessing clever maneuvers, and then a simple dice comparison just so we can get our heart in our throat. My personal favorite example of core mechanics getting overshadowed is basic settlers of catan and the expansion cities and knights. I feel the expansion layered of bunch of mechanics that seemed disconnected from the original aim, expanding across the island the fastest, and so distracted from my enjoyment. The expansion simply and unessesarily made the game more complicated. This is only my opinion.

So, for example separating pilot cards from ships would expand on a core mechanic (in my mind) but adding things like condition cards is a special rule which has to be done with caution as you can accidentally remove the value of the original bits that first drew you to a game.

I would also say if you ignore faction specific rules for factions you don’t play you end up “learning while you loose”.

Perhaps I am just being inflexible in my opinion of what xwing is.

57 minutes ago, BenDay said:

Perhaps I am just being inflexible in my opinion of what xwing is.

Nah. I just like complexity. . .and in X-Wing much of the complexity can be optional. IIRC, many have lauded 2.0 as allowing "naked pilots" to be viable, so you can easily discard any complexity that bothers you.

IHMO, 2.0 is a much simpler game. There are far less options overall, and many of the them are faction-locked, and thus able to be ignored by players outside that faction. I liked ships that needed various upgrades to be viable and/or variable--that made list-building part of the game. For example, I really don't like that most of the Titles have been stapled to the chassis, preventing you from deciding x7 vs. /D for the Defender as one case-in-point, or from using the TIE Bomber as a shuttle.

Second edition is waaay harder to keep track of than First edition. way more symbols, tokens, etc. the whole thing is already bloated and we have barely got 4 ships for 4 of the 7 factions. in a wave or 2 you'll need a semester long course to keep it all straight

I'll reiterate my call for a new quick-reference sheet with the new wave particularly because of the new strain tokens. I think there is likely a much better version of that sheet to be created. For example actions that grant a token could have the picture of the token and what the token is spent for next to the action. Maybe split actions that move the ship from actions that grant tokens.

On 3/7/2019 at 10:31 PM, Schu81 said:

Honestly, I keep reading quite a lot to keep up with all the rules and special abilities, but I am a bit confused about all the new stuff coming up. It's getting harder and harder to keep up with all the rules, special rules and game effects.

Yeah, maybe it's just me getting older...

Anyway, I feel like I am the rules-guy in my local gaming group. Usually people turn to me, when they don't really remember what will happen after flying through a debris cloud instead of flying over an asteroid. Things won't be easier to remember with ion clouds an all the other new stuff coming up.

Of course I am not talking about ion clouds in particular.... it wouldn't be much of a problem, if that's the only change to the game. But it feels like there will be a whole lot of completely new game effects coming with the new factions.

We are just a bunch of normal guys, with normal jobs and normal families. There is not so much time for rocket science and studying XWing rules.

Please keep this game easily playable.

Yeah. 2.0 is way more complicated than 1.0. I especially don't like the crit deck chains, but it seems there's more rules that are vague and require a FAQ. Ignoring obstacles and moving and the wording on cards seem to have gotten worse.

16 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Way better than keeping up with errata, no?

One tactic is to just not play that stuff. Like @PanchoX1 said, just know your stuff and let the other guy deal with his own complexity.

This is like one of things Not To Do if you play competitively, or even casual if you'd like to win occasionally. Sun Tzu , and all that.

I can agree with the OP. While I found the Ion Clouds an interesting addition, I did wrinkle my nose when I learned about the Strain tokens. I don't find their addition to the game all that beneficial. There comes a point when there are too many conditions to attempt to track. Descent 1E has so many tokens that even though I've been playing it for years, I keep the quick reference guide next to me while playing and look at it several times per game.

1 hour ago, Koing907 said:

This is like one of things Not To Do if you play competitively, or even casual if you'd like to win occasionally. Sun Tzu , and all that.

Agreed. Not the best approach to competitive play, but we we're discussing the game and learning of rules in general. When competing, I always take time to review what's across the table and ask questions about how something works if I've not seen it before.

While the game is getting more complex it is so much better setup then first edition was.

I run the local tournaments and am the rules guy. We just had a tournament this weekend and I had 0 rules questions to deal with in the entire tournament. Compare this to first edition and i was constantly clarifying rules for people.

2 hours ago, Koing907 said:

Yeah. 2.0 is way more complicated than 1.0. I especially don't like the crit deck chains, but it seems there's more rules that are vague and require a FAQ. Ignoring obstacles and moving and the wording on cards seem to have gotten worse.

I cant disagree with this more.

3 hours ago, Koing907 said:

This is like one of things Not To Do if you play competitively, or even casual if you'd like to win occasionally. Sun Tzu , and all that.

Man, if you lose X-Wing to the dog. . .