7 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Not ready to play out of the box.

Now, you purchase a complete game, or game expansion. You only need to download the errata if you are playing competitive.

A 2.0 with unlisted upgrade slots, ship, squadron & upgrade costs is nothing but an incomplete game.

Yes, it is usually easy enough to download a PDF. That doesn't change the fact that it is something you must do if you even want to play the table top miniatures wargame you have already purchased!

That model makes 2.0 an inferior product right out of the gate.

Not a deal breaker by itself, but definitely a strike against it. Add in a $30 conversion kit for each faction, that I will still need to buy multiples of, and the game only has one strike left.

I don't see how it is inappropriate for me, as a consumer, to expect a complete game

So, like, if it was available for free online, it would be complete. I know internet isnt reliable everywhere but jesus public libraries exist

1 hour ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

So, like, if it was available for free online, it would be complete. I know internet isnt reliable everywhere but jesus public libraries exist

No. If it was available with ALL information needed to play the game right out of the box!

If they included all initial point costs and upgrades in the box for each product, I wouldn't have this complaint.

Just like, if X-Wing 2.0 had made it a year before it needed a change in points cost/upgrades, then my argument that it only encourages lazy game design would hold less water.

I find it annoying that a table top miniatures wargame REQUIRES an app or a PDF just to play.

I firmly believe that expansions WILL receive LESS play testing and vetting, than they do now.

NOTHING is stopping FFG from publishing errata that corrects point costs on lesser used cards now. They don't. Why?

Because it is inconvenient to need to check what costs have changed for many different components every 6 months?

Instead with a 2.0 Armada, you would need to check all of them.

My point of view: if they need to change more than a few things, than they half-arsed the game design process in the first place. If not, than they should provide everything I need to play in the product I purchased. They can then correct those FEW mistakes with errata, that I can CHOOSE to download if I want to.

As far as I'm concerned, this is no different than not including the rules in the box, just so they can save on printing, even if they are available FREE for download! That is bush league, at best!

I'm with @cynanbloodbane on this, sorry..... I know a lot of folks live on the net these days, and that's fine for you. But I'm old school, and if I buy a game, I don't want to have to bother with getting on my comp and downloading extra stuff just to play.

Third party list builders are great ( I use battlescribe myself) but you're at the mercy of whoever is updating the files. And you can say, oh print the PDFs....except I don't own a printer ( and no I ain't buying one. Don't need it.)

Maybe I need to retire from war gaming and just go sit in a corner and eat my gruel. 😆

Apps are only good for as long as they decide to support them.

Once your favorite game starts slipping in popularity, that app will become unsupported.

My Armada collection isn’t cheap, I am not going to stop playing the game when it stops getting supported. It is not suddenly going to become a bad game because FFG doesn’t produce it any longer.

So let me stick with physical products for my physical games and electronic products for my electronic games.

I don’t buy into mixed media games. I have never seen one maintain longevity.

2 hours ago, n815e said:

Apps are only good for as long as they decide to support them.

Once your favorite game starts slipping in popularity, that app will become unsupported.

My Armada collection isn’t cheap, I am not going to stop playing the game when it stops getting supported. It is not suddenly going to become a bad game because FFG doesn’t produce it any longer.

So let me stick with physical products for my physical games and electronic products for my electronic games.

I don’t buy into mixed media games. I have never seen one maintain longevity.

Do you play Armada without the FAQ/errata, too? Or do PDFs with all the relevant information not count as "mixed media"?

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

Do you play Armada without the FAQ/errata, too? Or do PDFs with all the relevant information not count as "mixed media"?

Only some pdfs count.

Faq is ok.

Points lists not so much.

9 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Do you play Armada without the FAQ/errata, too? Or do PDFs with all the relevant information not count as "mixed media"?

The point is, you can play Armada without FAQ/errata. It is only required for tournament play. Without it the game is still perfectly playable.

2.0, you are buying an incomplete rules set, because FFG wants to be able to adjust things.

Again, include all initial point costs and upgrades in the product, as sold, and I'm at least willing to give it a fair shake. Don't try to sell me an unfinished product, and try to tell me it's superior to the original.

1 minute ago, cynanbloodbane said:

The point is, you can play Armada without FAQ/errata. It is only required for tournament play. Without it the game is still perfectly playable.

2.0, you are buying an incomplete rules set, because FFG wants to be able to adjust things.

Again, include all initial point costs and upgrades in the product, as sold, and I'm at least willing to give it a fair shake. Don't try to sell me an unfinished product, and try to tell me it's superior to the original.

Armada by its very definition is unfinished (we hope). Pretty much every card and miniature game on the market is unplayable out of the box. It will include rules of how to play a learning game and that's it. For Armada at least, there are meta breaking balance errata that mean that playing the game without is playing a completely different game.

If you don't care about FAQ, errata, and such, why do you even care about point values at all? Build whatever you want with the cards and play the game. If you have no interest in a balanced game, why bother with balance at all?

With xwing 2.0 I think FFG did it correctly. They made a fleet builder more or less required. However, they also made the system so complicated that honestly, I wouldn't WANT to do it without a builder. If you want to play out of the box, they give loadouts for that, with balance to be taken with a grain of salt.

All that being said, I expect Armada is too young to scrap for a 2.0. I just expect mechanic changes and MAYBE some more complexity to the fleet building process.

I dont think we are getting 2.0 expansion, but its possible, I do however think an app of some sorts is unavoidable if we are going to be supported by OP and GEM. If I had to guess what is going to be anounced: a CC esque box squadrons for pack 2 maybe some ship titles and faction unique upgrades, with an app for OP, A rebel Huge ship, clone wars, Armada 2.0 in that order. I think an app for OP is unavoidable as FFG wants all OP games on GEM and it seams that you need an app to do that, now what that app is is up to debate could just be a OP app that help track and orginize events and track what is doing well in tounaments. I could be completely off and maybe we dont need an app for this, but I get the impression that we will need some sort of app to be part of the new OP system.

I can't think of a single miniatures game I've played that hasn't had some form of digital components or updates. That's an absurd restriction.

**** even in like 2nd edition 40k back in the dark ages we were making our lists with excel sheets and things were digitally upgraded online.

Without a shred of sarcasm, do you guys not have phones?

10 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Without a shred of sarcasm, do you guys not have phones?

I didn’t until 6 months ago. I still had just a phone, not a smartphone.

as it is, I don’t have Data, only Wifi, which the FLGS does not supply.

13 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I can't think of a single miniatures game I've played that hasn't had some form of digital components or updates. That's an absurd restriction.

**** even in like 2nd edition 40k back in the dark ages we were making our lists with excel sheets and things were digitally upgraded online.

Without a shred of sarcasm, do you guys not have phones?

I started playing Warhammer in first edition, and all the way till third edition, used hand written and calculated army sheets, lol.

And yes I have a phone. It's a newer smart phone too. And the only app on it its FB, and the only thing I ever will do on that thing is text, check fb and phone calls. Some of us older folk don't like al, this newfangled techie stuff. 😂 😂 😂

By far my favorite part about this whole thing is how y’all are complaining about having to use the internet on the internet

5 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

By far my favorite part about this whole thing is how y’all are complaining about having to use the internet on the internet

We don't have a problem using the Internet. For myself, I have a problem spending money on a game, and being REQUIRED to go online and download/ print stuff to play said game, before I'm able to play it.

5 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

We don't have a problem using the Internet. For myself, I have a problem spending money on a game, and being REQUIRED to go online and download/ print stuff to play said game, before I'm able to play it.

I mean, you’re not required to do anything really. If you want to play the game with Monopoly models and cards against humanity cards as upgrades you are free to do so.

I on the other hand think that being able to points/slot adjust cards in the future as metas shift/content gets out into players hands is a pretty cool thing. Being able to handwave Tarkin down to 30 points, add a dretro to the vic, get errata out into the Wild quickly all sound pretty nifty to me.

Also- do you guys just not play with any of the FAQ or updated rules? Cause, ya know, the only place to find those are shudder...

Online

I just don't see how it would be any different than things are now. You go online, read the latest FAQ/errata, and then use a fleet building website to make your fleet, the author of which has already updated everything.

Numerous cards have already been modified. Honestly what's a few more?

I play without the FAQ all the time. I bring Rhymer and TIE Bombers, three flotillas (two with BCC and one with Jamming Field). My opponents pick my Most Wanted and then all my TIE Bombers are Keyan clones than can shoot at medium range. What's not to love?

(Not a true story.)

1 hour ago, MandalorianMoose said:

I mean, you’re not required to do anything really. If you want to play the game with Monopoly models and cards against humanity cards as upgrades you are free to do so.

I on the other hand think that being able to points/slot adjust cards in the future as metas shift/content gets out into players hands is a pretty cool thing. Being able to handwave Tarkin down to 30 points, add a dretro to the vic, get errata out into the Wild quickly all sound pretty nifty to me.

Also- do you guys just not play with any of the FAQ or updated rules? Cause, ya know, the only place to find those are shudder...

Online

My problem is the fact that I can download the FAQ and Rules and use them offline. Where my store doesnt' have WIFI that I can use.

There's no guarantee that an APP will have offline capability - which WILL stop my current work of "Build a list on the spot while i'm waiting for players because I don't have time to do that before going to the store"...

Its a tricky part to adapt there.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

My problem is the fact that I can download the FAQ and Rules and use them offline. Where my store doesnt' have WIFI that I can use.

There's no guarantee that an APP will have offline capability - which WILL stop my current work of "Build a list on the spot while i'm waiting for players because I don't have time to do that before going to the store"...

Its a tricky part to adapt there.

I mean..... don’t they have everything in a PDF in addition to the app

Just now, MandalorianMoose said:

I mean..... don’t they have everything in a PDF in addition to the app

Given the amount of upgrades, ships, slots, and all... Its not exactly user friendly to sit down and build a list, having to reference ALL of that on the PDF... Going back and forth between Ship, Slots and points... Its *horridly* inefficient. Its in the same region as "you might as well memorise everything" , in the fact its theoretically possible, but not exactly readily plausible.

I mean, when was the last time you sat down and made a list with nothing but the cards in front of you and a calculator?

Imagine what it'd be like if you also had to reference a PDF to not only tell you what slots your ship had, but the points costs for each thing in those slots...

You really need automated access at that point. I mean, people *already* need Automated access and they have the slots and points cost potentiallyin front of them... So it becomes a neccessary - And if its not offline, you're boned.

13 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Given the amount of upgrades, ships, slots, and all... Its not exactly user friendly to sit down and build a list, having to reference ALL of that on the PDF... Going back and forth between Ship, Slots and points... Its *horridly* inefficient. Its in the same region as "you might as well memorise everything" , in the fact its theoretically possible, but not exactly readily plausible.

I mean, when was the last time you sat down and made a list with nothing but the cards in front of you and a calculator?

Imagine what it'd be like if you also had to reference a PDF to not only tell you what slots your ship had, but the points costs for each thing in those slots...

You really need automated access at that point. I mean, people *already* need Automated access and they have the slots and points cost potentiallyin front of them... So it becomes a neccessary - And if its not offline, you're boned.

This right here. I have the errata and such on my tablet, and can access anytime. But, if I'm at the store and their net goes down, and I want to make a new list, if it's all on some app that requires online access you're done for.

Yes, I think the ability to update content online might be useful. But going full Xwing 2.0...... Nah.

22 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Given the amount of upgrades, ships, slots, and all... Its not exactly user friendly to sit down and build a list, having to reference ALL of that on the PDF... Going back and forth between Ship, Slots and points... Its *horridly* inefficient. Its in the same region as "you might as well memorise everything" , in the fact its theoretically possible, but not exactly readily plausible.

I mean, when was the last time you sat down and made a list with nothing but the cards in front of you and a calculator?

Imagine what it'd be like if you also had to reference a PDF to not only tell you what slots your ship had, but the points costs for each thing in those slots...

You really need automated access at that point. I mean, people *already* need Automated access and they have the slots and points cost potentiallyin front of them... So it becomes a neccessary - And if its not offline, you're boned.

That's what 3rd party army builders are for. For Armada I also build most of my lists on Armada Warlords and not with the cards themselves. A lot easier then a pdf file and will be supported way after FFG stops supporting the game.

I really don't understand the fuz people are making about it. You can play the game right out of the box, although not with full customization by using the pre-build threat cards and If you want to fully customize go to the app, pdf or 3rd party army builder. That's not a lot of work to do and gives the upside that they can fix mistakes with the plus side of having the meta-game change once in a while without them having to release the next OP ship.

2 hours ago, Revanur said:

That's what 3rd party army builders are for. For Armada I also build most of my lists on Armada Warlords and not with the cards themselves. A lot easier then a pdf file and will be supported way after FFG stops supporting the game.

I really don't understand the fuz people are making about it. You can play the game right out of the box, although not with full customization by using the pre-build threat cards and If you want to fully customize go to the app, pdf or 3rd party army builder. That's not a lot of work to do and gives the upside that they can fix mistakes with the plus side of having the meta-game change once in a while without them having to release the next OP ship.

Urgh, so many people ignoring my core worry:

As long as they are offline - that’s my caveat.

FABs for example is not.

But then, effectively having someone use not only an app, but a 3rd party app is a failure of the system itself.

I mean, my thoughts are not without merit or example: I am having these very issues with Infinity right now... Witg their webpage builder being the only one updated in the timely manner, and the mobile app builder not outputting correctly...

8 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Urgh, so many people ignoring my core worry:

As long as they are offline - that’s my caveat.

FABs for example is not.

But then, effectively having someone use not only an app, but a 3rd party app is a failure of the system itself.

How often will it happen that you are list building without internet connection? Maybe lucky living in the Netherlands as the only time without internet is when the provider has a technical failure and those are rare.

But besides that, how often do you need to build a list on the spot? I will never build my list at an LGS as I wouldn't have my entire collection with me anyway. And if you do expect to do that every now and then. Just print out the points list and ok you will have to write stuff down the old way while doing it, but doing it old fashioned offline was already the idea

It should be an app/program that does not require connection to the internet to build fleets etc., but is just updated to the latest version of the program, when updates are needed so as long as you have the most up to date version no problem. However if the app is also going to be used to report stuff to GEM then connection might be required for OP, but my thoughts, there is no reason the app could not build fleets offline, though this is all just if we get an app, though I do think it is likely with the changes to OP, but I have been wrong before.