5 minutes ago, Revanur said:

How  often will it happ  en that you are list building without internet connection? Maybe lucky living in the Netherlands as th  e only time without internet is when the provid  e  r has a technical failure and those are rare.  

Every Game Day.

As stated, my FLGS does not have WIFI and I have no data.

I list build on the spot ALL THE TIME. This is because I’m not just a player, I’m an administrator, game runner, tournament organizer and community manager... I get to the FLGS before it opens to set up tables, and in there at the end to clean up - because I’m helping them and the local community.

I can’t take a set plan, or a set list, because I have to be ready to adapt to teach, or lend ships, or build fleets for others to play or try... To verify tournament lists...

SOO MANY REASONS to build on the fly.

abd quickly, without having to reference a document to tell me what I can equip before I look elsewhere to see how much it is to equip

Like I said - I’m already having these issues with a different company.

So I’m justifiably wary it’ll happen here, too...

You know, the simple way to solve the issue would be to have the core set and all expansions have a printout with the points costs of all of the ships and cards in them. You still don't have to errata cards and can adjust points costs on the fly via the app and online pdfs, but the game is still playable without the app directly out of the box.

Tournament players would just have to print off PDFs whenever points costs change.

I mean, I think all of the whining about having to find the PDFs online is a bit overblown, but the basic idea about wanting to be able to play the game out of the box without needing anything but what comes in the box is a valid one. And it would be easy for FFG to do that and get all the benefits of updating via the app.

6 minutes ago, Onidsen said:

You know, the simple way to solve the issue would be to have the core set and all expansions have a printout with the points costs of all of the ships and cards in them. You still don't have to errata cards and can adjust points costs on the fly via the app and online pdfs, but the game is still playable without the app directly out of the box.

Tournament players would just have to print off PDFs whenever points costs change.

I mean, I think all of the whining about having to find the PDFs online is a bit overblown, but the basic idea about wanting to be able to play the game out of the box without needing anything but what comes in the box is a valid one. And it would be easy for FFG to do that and get all the benefits of updating via the app.

You are seriously underestimating the annoyance of trying to fleet build on paper with a system where each upgrade can have a different cost on each variant, and theoretically, combinations of upgrades become more expensive. It's a system that is almost impossible to represent on paper, even at the number of ships that Armada has. FFGs main claim to fame in the miniatures world was making systems that don't require giant piles of paper and tedious record keeping.

Would it be nice if Armada did a 2.0, sure. Not worth the pain of having to reprint a low selling game though. So really, I would be very surprised if they did it.

20 minutes ago, AdmiralYor said:

You are seriously underestimating the annoyance of trying to fleet build on paper with a system where each upgrade can have a different cost on each variant, and theoretically, combinations of upgrades become more expensive. It's a system that is almost impossible to represent on paper, even at the number of ships that Armada has. FFGs main claim to fame in the miniatures world was making systems that don't require giant piles of paper and tedious record keeping.

Would it be nice if Armada did a 2.0, sure. Not worth the pain of having to reprint a low selling game though. So really, I would be very surprised if they did it.

I mean, that's why they went with the app to begin with, along with the pregen squads. I was just spitballing a way to answer the objection that you can't play everything right out of the box. If you're doing the pdf online anyways, it doesn't hurt to print off a current-as-of-printing copy and put it in the box.

I'm a fan of the mixed media idea, personally, and wish armada had an app that could be updated on the fly. I just think that there a valid point in the midst of all the complaints about wanting to be able to play straight out of the box which could have been answered easily.

Sure it would be ridiculously complicated, and people who tried it would see exactly why the move to the app happened.

Perhaps another move could have been to make the app available offline.

No, everything I need to play every component in the core box should be in the box!

Builder apps are convenient for when I don't have all my cards handy, but I still enjoy building a list with JUST the cards. Why bother having cards at all, if only half the stats you need to play are included?

Why bother making balanced ships, if they can just fix them indefinitely?

Why do I need to download anything to play a brand new, table top miniatures wargame?

Why bother buying an incomplete game, when the one I have now is better?

Sell me a complete game, or I don't get my money. I already have a great Star Wars Armada game, why would I want to switch?

A 2.0 would be less, not more.

13 hours ago, Onidsen said:

[ ...]

Perhaps another move could have been to make the app available offline.

Seems to be the obvious move. Cannot understand why not to.

14 hours ago, Onidsen said:

I mean, that's why they went with the app to begin with, along with the pregen squads. I was just spitballing a way to answer the objection that you can't play everything right out of the box. If you're doing the pdf online anyways, it doesn't hurt to print off a current-as-of-printing copy and put it in the box.

I'm a fan of the mixed media idea, personally, and wish armada had an app that could be updated on the fly. I just think that there a valid point in the midst of all the complaints about wanting to be able to play straight out of the box which could have been answered easily.

Sure it would be ridiculously complicated, and people who tried it would see exactly why the move to the app happened.

Perhaps another move could have been to make the app available offline.

Just to mention....I think you've mentioned these pregen squads before, which I believe are a concept from Xwing 2.0. Myself, I totally despise that....lol. I will never play with anything I didn't customize myself to my liking. That's one of the things I like about Armada. I have a couple friends here play Xwing, and no one uses those pregen things. Just saying. 😊

5 hours ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Why bother making balanced ships, if they can just fix them indefinitely?

So every ship in the game is perfectly balanced right now? The Victory and the Pelta are perfectly balanced against say the ISD and the CR90? People make mistakes, they release unbalanced ships. The assumption that they are producing perfect balance now, and will continue to (assuming they keep giving us more product...), is silly. Why would we not want the ability to adjust things?

Regardless, this conversation isn't getting us anywhere. One side wants an app, one side doesn't. Agree to disagree? Just like we've learned to do on many other divisive Armada topics?

I agree to disagree.

Current game with Clone Wars ships? I'm all in.

7 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

I agree to disagree.

Current game with Clone Wars ships? I'm all in.

I agree to agree on that point! Despite my issues, I love the game enough to keep playing it and supporting *if* FFG gives us more. Just not more huge ships, please.

On 3/8/2019 at 3:16 PM, LordCola said:

What? 🤨 I don't remember that. Would you mind giving me page and line number so that I can read up on that?

I'll try to find you the page number later today. The mention of the outside threat that is looming, and why the Chiss are seeking allies. I'll look later today.

9 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

I'll try to find you the page number later today. The mention of the outside threat that is looming, and why the Chiss are seeking allies. I'll look later today.

Did you read Thrawn: Alliances? In that book it is explained that the unnamed threat Thrawn speaks of is a species called the Grysk. Which, while somewhat similar to the Yuuzhan Vong, are distinctly not the Vong.

To be fair, the Grysk are "One Of" those threats.

Not The .

11 hours ago, cynanbloodbane said:

1) No, everything I need to play every component in the core box should be in the box!

2) Builder apps are convenient for when I don't have all my cards handy, but I still enjoy building a list with JUST the cards. Why bother having cards at all, if only half the stats you need to play are included?

3) Why bother making balanced ships, if they can just fix them indefinitely?

4) Why do I need to download anything to play a brand new, table top miniatures wargame?

5) Why bother buying an incomplete game, when the one I have now is better?

6) Sell me a complete game, or I don't get my money. I already have a great Star Wars Armada game, why would I want to switch?

7) A 2.0 would be less, not more.

Numbered your points to clarify what I am awnsering.

1) Everything to play is in the X-wing 2.0 core game. I played my first trial game without the app or any other online reference.

2) The cards are still there to visualize the list in a way that is in my eyes clearer to view from accross the board then a hand written or printed out army list I was used to with games like Warhammer. Also I still like to go through my Armada ship cards etc, but haven't build a list that way in ages.

3) Even when the game designers and testers are extremely passionate about the game and strife only for the best game with great balance mistakes will happen. And as a game grows in size through new expansion it will become more difficult to find all interactions. Things will always be overlooked during testing that the community will find, everyone playing the game brings way more time into it than any company can test it. I welcome the option to fix it.

4) You only need to when you want to customize your upgrades yourself, no need otherwise. And the bar to do it is not that high.

5) It's not incomplete and how do you know it's better? Only because you have a minute less work on it? I think the better game is the one with better balance and the one that can evolve to that better balanced state. Although Armada's balance is pretty decent I would welcome certain ships and squadrons getting different costs to make them viable.

6) Luckily that's everyones choice to make for themselves/

7) For you that may be true. For others it will be more. I now play X-wing 2.0 with a lot of fun and am buying a collection for it. Something I wouldn't have have done with 1.0

I guess we will never agree on this and that's fine. To each their own way of enjoying a game.

On 3/8/2019 at 10:08 AM, codytx2 said:

All ship/upgrade cards are printed without point costs or upgrade slots. You use the FFG X-wing app to build your list. The great thing about it is the game can be balanced with point adjustments if needed and upgrade slots added/removed to older ships when a new upgrade type is added in later waves.

I can see why some would like this, but maybe I am just to old school. I do not like having computers and such around when playing my board/table top games, so I am very much an anti-app person.

Wow, just read the rest of the posts. Some thoughts

First yes I have a phone and it does one thing only, make phone calls. You may call it a dumb phone or what ever it is pre-flip phone, and still answers calls just fine (I am on my 4th battery in my almost 15 year old phone) and that is all I want a phone to do.

I can see why some would like the app and the cards with out all the information on them that is changed, however for me I am out of internet area's a lot, and several of the places that I have lived in over the last 10 years or so at best have today dial up speeds. So the app looks less and less appealing to me (besides not wanting a computer with me to play a game).

I do not check the FAQ's and all that very often, so I could see having an old out of date print out. Now not a big deal as FAQ's and such are not mostly game changing (some are but not most), but showing up someplace and wanting to play, start building your list there (something I do all the time) and then find out that you do not have the current fleet lists so you can not build what you are trying to and now you need to borrow someone's computer to look up stuff or their print out. This just sounds like to much of a pain, just so you can have an app to make life easier to me at least it is making it much harder.

I also worry about when the game is dead and the app no longer supported. I have several games that are "dead" finding stuff online for them is difficult and some of the companies do not keep any information about old games available to the public, making it more difficult.

6 hours ago, CDAT said:

I can see why some would like this, but maybe I am just to old school. I do not like having computers and such around when playing my board/table top games, so I am very much an anti-app person.

Wow, just read the rest of the posts. Some thoughts

First yes I have a phone and it does one thing only, make phone calls. You may call it a dumb phone or what ever it is pre-flip phone, and still answers calls just fine (I am on my 4th battery in my almost 15 year old phone) and that is all I want a phone to do.

I can see why some would like the app and the cards with out all the information on them that is changed, however for me I am out of internet area's a lot, and several of the places that I have lived in over the last 10 years or so at best have today dial up speeds. So the app looks less and less appealing to me (besides not wanting a computer with me to play a game).

I do not check the FAQ's and all that very often, so I could see having an old out of date print out. Now not a big deal as FAQ's and such are not mostly game changing (some are but not most), but showing up someplace and wanting to play, start building your list there (something I do all the time) and then find out that you do not have the current fleet lists so you can not build what you are trying to and now you need to borrow someone's computer to look up stuff or their print out. This just sounds like to much of a pain, just so you can have an app to make life easier to me at least it is making it much harder.

I also worry about when the game is dead and the app no longer supported. I have several games that are "dead" finding stuff online for them is difficult and some of the companies do not keep any information about old games available to the public, making it more difficult.

You print things out. You can go to a public library, look up the rules, and print them out for pocket change bam. You have all of the point costs and available upgrade slots in a more condensed source.

1 hour ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

You print things out. You can go to a public library, look up the rules, and print them out for pocket change bam. You have all of the point costs and available upgrade slots in a more condensed source.

And when your town does not have a public library? My home town does not.

3 hours ago, CDAT said:

And when your town does not have a public library? My home town does not.

From a fellow CDAT, what @CDAT just said. The whole point we are trying to make is this: we want to be able to play WITH JUST THE BOX CONTENTS, IF WE HAVE TO. Meaning, we buy the box, go home, open it and can play. And no, NOT with some premade crap. I don't want to have to go to the library to print anything, or have to download some app, etc.

Guess this is a divide between the younger folks who grew up smart phone in hand and us older folk who dislike the current state of civilization....lol! We shall have to agree to disagree, as has been suggested, and just wait to see what FFG puts out.

I am of the "younger folks" and I still don't like the idea of fleet builder apps.

As it was pointed out already, it means that devs don't need to balance anything anymore. OP? Justincrease the point cost. Too weak? Just change the text or lower the point cost.

Armada is sucha great gamr because it's so well balanced. I don'twantit to take X-Wing's path thankyouverymuch.

Plus I don't want to google my phone all the time, I want to PLAY! See and touch what I'm playing and interact with my opponent, not googling what thatnever used card that happens to be in his list can do.

And how would I introduce the game? Hey guys, you like my huge plastic ships? Wanna play? Uh... Ok, just download this app on your phone first. Suuuure it's not a spyware or anything, I swear! How much time till it downloads? Well see you next time then...

17 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

Guess this is a divide between the younger folks     who  grew up smart phone in hand and us older  folk   w  ho dislike the current state of civilization....lol! We shall  have to agree to disagree, as h  as been suggested, and just wait to see what FFG puts out.

Speaking as one of the younger folk, it’s not so simple. I don’t want another mobile app because I don’t want to agree to Disney’s privacy policy. They’re not the worst, but there’s something to be said for the status quo of not installing anything right now...

2 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

From a fellow CDAT, what @CDAT just said. The whole point we are trying to make is this: we want to be able to play WITH JUST THE BOX CONTENTS, IF WE HAVE TO. Meaning, we buy the box, go home, open it and can play. And no, NOT with some premade crap. I don't want to have to go to the library to print anything, or have to download some app, etc.

Guess this is a divide between the younger folks who grew up smart phone in hand and us older folk who dislike the current state of civilization....lol! We shall have to agree to disagree, as has been suggested, and just wait to see what FFG puts out.

I'm a (younger folk)? but I agree with your stance on being able to play right from the box without needing anything else. Having an app is great and all, really opens the doors for many things, but people who just want to get home or wherever and just play should be able to from the box. I spend too much time on my phone and on computers for work anyway, it's nice to just put the tech away at the end of the day.

I absolutely, completely understand the concerns for those that don't want an app. Just a couple quick comments to defend the app:

1. You know you don't need it to play, right? Point costs change, it's not like they are re-writing the rules with every revision. You'll still have cards that tell you what everything does. Once your list is made, you can completely ignore the technology again.

2. Introducing an app doesn't mean everything will come out unbalanced! The game isn't perfectly balanced now, otherwise we wouldn't have so many discussions about why the VSD and the Pelta are terrible (then talk for 20 pages about how they *can* work if you just try hard enough). Armada is fantastic and relative to other tabletop games, it IS well balanced. It is still far from perfect, however. This particular argument just holds absolutely no water to me.

To be completely frank, I'm not excited about constant changes and always having to check my phone for the newest update. Still, that annoyance is totally worth it to me to have the most balanced game possible.

32 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

To be completely frank, I'm not excited about constant changes and always having to check my phone for the newest update. Still, that annoyance is totally worth it to me to have the most balanced game possible. 

I suppose I'll chip in now.

My only real concern about going to an app like X-wing has less to to with the subjects brought up by everyone else, and more to do with FFG's standard treatment of Armada.

I feel like even if we got an app, the updates would not be timely, ever, the app quality would be poor (and likely require wifi), and the game would still have the "imperfections" it was designed to "fix"....

I mean, I don't know how to code, but I know that typing up a paper with images and converting it to PDF only takes a few minutes and yet almost every FAQ we've had over the last few years has been delayed by months

Somehow I don't think an app would be great for us , not because it would ruin the game balance or let them sell an incomplete product, but because we are the starving forgotten stepchild of FFG , I have no doubt the app would suffer from the same level of neglect as everything else Armada related...

17 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I suppose I'll chip in now.

My only real concern about going to an app like X-wing has less to to with the subjects brought up by everyone else, and more to do with FFG's standard treatment of Armada.

I feel like even if we got an app, the updates would not be timely, ever, the app quality would be poor (and likely require wifi), and the game would still have the "imperfections" it was designed to "fix"....

I mean, I don't know how to code, but I know that typing up a paper with images and converting it to PDF only takes a few minutes and yet almost every FAQ we've had over the last few years has been delayed by months

Somehow I don't think an app would be great for us , not because it would ruin the game balance or let them sell an incomplete product, but because we are the starving forgotten stepchild of FFG , I have no doubt the app would suffer from the same level of neglect as everything else Armada related...

I.....doggone it, I don't want to agree with you.....but I have to...... 😢