Ninja'd by @Grumbleduke

4 minutes ago, LordCola said:

I don't remember that. Would you mind giving me page and line number so that I can read up on that?

The first Thrawn novel references an unspecified hostile alien race from the Unknown Region, who is a threat to everyone (much as other Zahn books have). Thrawn: Alliances labels them Grysks, and they have some narrative similarities to the Yuuzhan Vong, but definitely aren't them. The Yuuzhan Vong almost made it into canon via The Clone Wars, but for now are definitely not canon.

2 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

The first Thrawn novel references an unspecified hostile alien race from the Unknown Region, who is a threat to everyone (much as other Zahn books have). Thrawn: Alliances labels them Grysks, and they have some narrative similarities to the Yuuzhan Vong, but definitely aren't them. The Yuuzhan Vong almost made it into canon via The Clone Wars, but for now are definitely not canon.

2 minutes ago, BlueSquadronPilot said:

They are not canon. There was a very very vague statement about a threat out there, but it did not mention nor describe the Yuuzhan Vong specifically . It was a nod for the old legends race, nothing else but that and a way to make people excited and theory craft. Until they come out and say it, they are not canon.

I know all of this. My original statement was meant to be sarcastic.

32 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You have to admit, There is a fundamental assumption there that the ability to fix things easier doesn’t lead to sloppier first instance production...

Am I completely off base comparing working for FFG to my job? We're in drastically different industries, but I do my level best to produce the highest quality product the first time. Just because I know I will have an opportunity to correct errors doesn't mean I get lazy. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that the folks behind Armada should be taking pride in their work and giving us their best.

Regardless, even without the app there are examples we could all point to of "sloppy" work. There are a pile of upgrades (plus some ships and squadrons) that are near universally considered to be poor. They are going to make errors, we all do. An app lets you fix those errors. I'd rather have a method to fix my mistakes than bet on me making none.

1 hour ago, IronNerd said:

Am I completely off base comparing working for FFG to my job? We're in drastically different industries, but I do my level best to produce the highest quality product the first time. Just because I know I will have an opportunity to correct errors doesn't mean I get lazy. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that the folks behind Armada should be taking pride in their work and giving us their best.

Regardless, even without the app there are examples we could all point to of "sloppy" work. There are a pile of upgrades (plus some ships and squadrons) that are near universally considered to be poor. They are going to make errors, we all do. An app lets you fix those errors. I'd rather have a method to fix my mistakes than bet on me making none.

Look, I’m with you.

But it’s still a fundamental assumption to be made.

That’s all I pointed out.

16 hours ago, ArmadaMatt said:

I've seen this a few times in reference to X-wing, but since I don't play, I don't know what this really means. Can someone explain?

X-wing 2.0 cards do NOT have printed costs.

Instead, all points are contained in several pdfs - and then reflected in the fleet builder app.

Ships also do NOT have upgrade icons - they too are listen in the pdfs/app.

(you find it here, at the bottom, under Points Cost, https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/ )

Approx 2 times per year, FFG will update the points (and to a lesser degree upgrade slots).

The game launched 13 Sept and we had the first update on 28 Jan: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/1/28/balance-in-the-force/

(next update this summer, I believe)

Regarding the actual app: It's a piece of hot garbage, but with SOME redeeming features. The GUI is horrible, and it was more like a beta when it launched. It still probably is the least user friendly app (there are 3rd part apps too). The redeeming features are logging using forum username, and both web/mobile clients. And it supports custom formats, which is very neat.

(I build all my fleets in YASB 2.0, and only use the FFG app for official events - and sometimes to build fleets for custom formats, such as a the Yavin IV battle event).

But the app is just a tool to help you. It's not really essential (but oc, who builds fleets without a builder!?). The main things is the variable costs and flexible upgrades.

Now, some will claim that this is just lazy game design and whatnot. That they should get it right the first time bla bla bla.

This is just rubbish.

You CANNOT make a competitive game with this many parts and get it right. No matter how well put together (2.0 is extremely well done for the most part) and thoroughly playteststed (a lot), players WILL "tear it apart". This is true of every board game, miniatures game, computer game, whatever. It's hard to get right, even if there was just the core game and no future releases. With who knows how many waves in the making, it's just impossible.

The first batch of points released was maybe a little skewed towards Empire and Scum, not so much Rebels. So in January both the TIE Bomber and Punisher got points increases. Along with some of the upgrades that had made them super-effective. Other Empire ships actually got a points decrease. Same with Scum. Rebels got away with few increases, but they did up the cost of my precious Proton Torpedoes.

For upgrades they, as an example, took away the Phantoms Crew slot. It was problematic mostly bc you could stick Darth Vader in it - and together they were much more effective then any other ship/Vader combo.

Now many of the old tricks no longer work. My Nationals Rebel list sits at 206 pts. I have Empire lists where EVERY SINGLE card got a points increase

So of course NEW stuff is floating up to the top. Some of which maybe well be just as cost effective in the new meta as the old stuff was before. Well, I do see more list variety post-update. So maybe balance IS a bit better (but some cards, like Leia, is now so cheap she's in the almost auto-include category).

But for me the ideal isn't the ULTIMATE BALANCE. I don't think that can happen. Players are clever. They find the effective combos.

You can strive for GOOD balance, but the most important part (for me) is that the meta will CHANGE, and not just as a result of new waves.

This keeps the game fresh and exiting.

Oh, and FFG is not shy about going ad hoc updates either. We had a "Tripsilon" build - three First Order shuttles deploying in your face r1 - cut down at the knees before it could become a big thing. FFG even explicitly stated that they didn't plan on doing that often, but that it was a build that pretty much broke a core aspect of the game, namely careful maneuvering. It wasn't unbeatable, but for less experienced players it was just frustrating and dumb to play against.

The try to avoid direct errata of cards, but they do keep a forum thread with official rules interpretations in addition to the RRG/FAQ.

TL;DR When you think about how many ARMADA upgrades just sit there, unused, and how many ships are just niche because their price or upgrades just isn't competitive... or how long it took for stuff like Rieekan, Demo, Yavaris, flotilla spam to be (somewhat) reined in... X-wing 2.0's model is INFINITELY better.

Few are as Zealous as the Converted 😁

8 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Few are as Zealous as the Converted 😁

I quite like 2.0

But it's very different from armada.

Fast and furious, but sadly not as deep.

But I approve very much of the 'model' they've landed on for keeping game fresh and interesting.

4 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I quite like 2.0

But it's very different from armada.

Fast and furious, but sadly not as deep.

But I approve very much of the 'model' they've landed on for keeping game fresh and interesting.

I’m just more concerned at the level of effort and input required to rebalance from scratch - not that it gets easier as you go further either 🙂

Fresh and Interesting will happen without it, though - just in its own way.

8 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I’m just more concerned at the level of effort and input required to rebalance from scratch - not that it gets easier as you go further either 🙂

Fresh and Interesting will happen without it, though - just in its own way.

But what would happen if the Assault Pelta had double weapon slots?

And Sensor Team cost 3 points?

😃

30 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

But what would happen if the Assault Pelta had double weapon slots?

And Sensor Team cost 3 points?

😃

Assuming everything else was changed and shifted with that?

Nothing.

The x wing system looks awesome. I'd love to have that in Armada.

Just tweaking costs alone could mayyybe make a few dud upgrades useful.

3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

But what would happen if the Assault Pelta had double weapon slots?

And Sensor Team cost 3 points?

😃

Or you know, the Pelta just got a gunner slot for Ordinance Experts or Gunnery Teams

53 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Or you know, the Pelta just got a gunner slot for Ordinance Experts or Gunnery Teams

Yeah, weapon team

9 hours ago, Green Knight said:

X-wing 2.0 cards do NOT have printed costs.

Instead, all points are contained in several pdfs - and then reflected in the fleet builder app.

Ships also do NOT have upgrade icons - they too are listen in the pdfs/app.

(you find it here, at the bottom, under Points Cost, https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/ )

Approx 2 times per year, FFG will update the points (and to a lesser degree upgrade slots).

The game launched 13 Sept and we had the first update on 28 Jan: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/1/28/balance-in-the-force/

(next update this summer, I believe)

Regarding the actual app: It's a piece of hot garbage, but with SOME redeeming features. The GUI is horrible, and it was more like a beta when it launched. It still probably is the least user friendly app (there are 3rd part apps too). The redeeming features are logging using forum username, and both web/mobile clients. And it supports custom formats, which is very neat.

(I build all my fleets in YASB 2.0, and only use the FFG app for official events - and sometimes to build fleets for custom formats, such as a the Yavin IV battle event).

But the app is just a tool to help you. It's not really essential (but oc, who builds fleets without a builder!?). The main things is the variable costs and flexible upgrades.

Now, some will claim that this is just lazy game design and whatnot. That they should get it right the first time bla bla bla.

This is just rubbish.

You CANNOT make a competitive game with this many parts and get it right. No matter how well put together (2.0 is extremely well done for the most part) and thoroughly playteststed (a lot), players WILL "tear it apart". This is true of every board game, miniatures game, computer game, whatever. It's hard to get right, even if there was just the core game and no future releases. With who knows how many waves in the making, it's just impossible.

The first batch of points released was maybe a little skewed towards Empire and Scum, not so much Rebels. So in January both the TIE Bomber and Punisher got points increases. Along with some of the upgrades that had made them super-effective. Other Empire ships actually got a points decrease. Same with Scum. Rebels got away with few increases, but they did up the cost of my precious Proton Torpedoes.

For upgrades they, as an example, took away the Phantoms Crew slot. It was problematic mostly bc you could stick Darth Vader in it - and together they were much more effective then any other ship/Vader combo.

Now many of the old tricks no longer work. My Nationals Rebel list sits at 206 pts. I have Empire lists where EVERY SINGLE card got a points increase

So of course NEW stuff is floating up to the top. Some of which maybe well be just as cost effective in the new meta as the old stuff was before. Well, I do see more list variety post-update. So maybe balance IS a bit better (but some cards, like Leia, is now so cheap she's in the almost auto-include category).

But for me the ideal isn't the ULTIMATE BALANCE. I don't think that can happen. Players are clever. They find the effective combos.

You can strive for GOOD balance, but the most important part (for me) is that the meta will CHANGE, and not just as a result of new waves.

This keeps the game fresh and exiting.

Oh, and FFG is not shy about going ad hoc updates either. We had a "Tripsilon" build - three First Order shuttles deploying in your face r1 - cut down at the knees before it could become a big thing. FFG even explicitly stated that they didn't plan on doing that often, but that it was a build that pretty much broke a core aspect of the game, namely careful maneuvering. It wasn't unbeatable, but for less experienced players it was just frustrating and dumb to play against.

The try to avoid direct errata of cards, but they do keep a forum thread with official rules interpretations in addition to the RRG/FAQ.

TL;DR When you think about how many ARMADA upgrades just sit there, unused, and how many ships are just niche because their price or upgrades just isn't competitive... or how long it took for stuff like Rieekan, Demo, Yavaris, flotilla spam to be (somewhat) reined in... X-wing 2.0's model is INFINITELY better.

Doesn't change the fact that you are buying a game that is unplayable out of the box, if the app is no longer supported either.

5 hours ago, Church14 said:

Or you know, the Pelta just got a gunner slot for Ordinance Experts or Gunnery Teams

Or Flight Controllers...

I can see the super carrier Pelta now, Raymus Antilles, Fighter Coord Team, Boosted Comms, Flight Controller, AFFM! Phoenix Home title, and Adar Tallon for a 98 point ship to push 3 B-wings (probably Ten Numb and 2 generics) that can hit like X-wings.

1 hour ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Doesn't change the fact that you are buying a game that is unplayable out of the box, if the app is no longer supported either.

If you have the latest set of points costs/upgrade slots via pdf then it’s no different than buying an out of print game and using those components....

5 minutes ago, Cap116 said:

Or Flight Controllers...

I can see the super carrier Pelta now, Raymus Antilles, Fighter Coord Team, Boosted Comms, Flight Controller, AFFM! Phoenix Home title, and Adar Tallon for a 98 point ship to push 3 B-wings (probably Ten Numb and 2 generics) that can hit like X-wings.

In an ideal world only the assault pelta would get one to prevent this very thing. The assault frigate already gets pushed out of so many roles by more specialized ships, flight controller platform is pretty much its last use outside of Ackbar

1 hour ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Doesn't change the fact that you are buying a game that is unplayable out of the box, if the app is no longer supported either.

What?

Pdfs list the cost.

3rd part builders take care of the rest.

2 hours ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Doesn't change the fact that you are buying a game that is unplayable out of the box, if the app is no longer supported either.

Besides the pdfs as alternatives to the app that other mentioned, the game is playable from the box with quick builds cards supplied in the boxes if you don't want to customize the builds yourself

54 minutes ago, Revanur said:

Besides the pdfs as alternatives to the app that other mentioned, the game is playable from the box with quick builds cards supplied in the boxes if you don't want to customize the builds yourself

See, I don't like that.

i want a fully customizable game out of the box, that I can play WITHOUT having to print a PDF or download some app.

Yeah, I'm a 52 year old cranky dude. Lol. Too much tech is too much. I will admit however, that having the ability to adjust stuff that seems out of whack is convenient. Hmm. I'm torn on this.

6 hours ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Doesn't change the fact that you are buying a game that is unplayable out of the box, if the app is no longer supported either.

This is only true if the internet dies and you can no longer access it. The .pdf's are published on the home site. Even if they take it off one day, you will still have the .pdf's or print outs. Should you lose or misplace them there are always your old cards with the points on them to fall back on. Really, the sky is not falling here...

I just want to say as useful as the 2.0 thing is for X Wing, there are places without internet connectivity at game stores (what did they build this place out of?!?!?). I also really dislike the technology required to play a 'manual' miniatures game. But t hat's mostly a personal preference thing for me.

I'd really hate to be forced to a 2.0 for Armada. Especially since how it sure feels like they've let this game go to rot up until recently. I am curious what FFG has up their sleeves for Armada next. I really don't know if they'll take a leap into Clone Wars.

2 hours ago, Stasy said:

I just want to say as useful as the 2.0 thing is for X Wing, there are places without internet connectivity at game stores (what did they build this place out of?!?!?). I also really dislike the technology required to play a 'manual' miniatures game. But t hat's mostly a personal preference thing for me.

 I'd really hate to be forced to a 2.0 for Armada. Especially since how it sure feels like they've let this game go to rot up until recently. I am curious what FFG has up their sleeves for Armada next. I really don't know if they'll take a leap into Clone Wars.

Can you explain why you need connectivity at the game store?

2 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Can you explain why you need connectivity at the game store?

Not ready to play out of the box.

Now, you purchase a complete game, or game expansion. You only need to download the errata if you are playing competitive.

A 2.0 with unlisted upgrade slots, ship, squadron & upgrade costs is nothing but an incomplete game.

Yes, it is usually easy enough to download a PDF. That doesn't change the fact that it is something you must do if you even want to play the table top miniatures wargame you have already purchased!

That model makes 2.0 an inferior product right out of the gate.

Not a deal breaker by itself, but definitely a strike against it. Add in a $30 conversion kit for each faction, that I will still need to buy multiples of, and the game only has one strike left.

I don't see how it is inappropriate for me, as a consumer, to expect a complete product.