1 minute ago, meffo said:

no need. it's already well established within the documentation that rerolling is different from rolling. to reroll, you need to have already rolled. sure, you can say that rerolling is also rolling and be right about it, but rerolling is still not the same event as rolling. the sentence "after dice are rolled" applies only to immediately after the dice have been rolled. if you later modify those dice by rerolling them, you've missed that opportunity.

i will happily admit it could be even clearer, just like most rules in this game, but it's definitely clear enough for me to be content with @thespaceinvader s suggestion.

Citations or it is just "Because I Say" (B.I.S.). B.I.S. is only valid when you're a tournament judge judging the tournament in progress. I presented citations and explanations for my reasoning why the suggested change would cause Rebel Han pilot to function in the way I outlined. Where are yours?

5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Citations or it is just "Because I Say" (B.I.S.). B.I.S. is only valid when you're a tournament judge judging the tournament in progress. I presented citations and explanations for my reasoning why the suggested change would cause Rebel Han pilot to function in the way I outlined. Where are yours?

i honestly don't view it as important, since it's just a suggestion, but sure, i'll humor you.

"• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again."

it doesn't say rerolling is the same as rolling, it doesn't say rerolling is the same as making a dice roll. it says "pick up the die and roll it again". that doesn't have the same meaning as rolling. do you have examples of where rolling and rerolling are defined as the same mechanic or is it all just because you say?

i can't see any objections you've made to @thespaceinvader s suggestion that are valid. you are simply ignoring the once per opportunity rule and claiming a reroll is the same thing as a roll.

lets break it down.

"After you roll dice, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, you may reroll all of your dice. These dice do not count as having been rerolled  ."

this means, immediately after you've made a dice roll, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, the ability triggers and you may reroll all the dice or as many as are eligible of the ones you have just rolled. that's that opportunity. let's say you choose to reroll all of your dice. you don't end up with a result you're happy with. yet, you still cannot trigger han solos ability again, because of the once per opportunity rule. also, the timing window of "after you roll dice" is well passed. you didn't just make a dice roll, you used an ability to reroll all your dice after having made a dice roll. your dice don't count as having been rerolled, so if you're attacking you could reroll them again with a target lock, reroll a singe one of them with predator etc.. if you were defending you could use elusive.

where are your citations regarding that a reroll is a roll or that once per opportunity wouldn't apply, so that han could trigger off his own ability infinitely until he gets a roll he's happy with?

@meffo it is in the definition that you quoted. Try to reroll dice without picking up and rolling them. Or in the case of a digital randomizer, without initiating its randomization function... Reroll is a subtype of Roll. If a Roll does not count as a Reroll it remains a Roll.

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

@meffo it is in the definition that you quoted. Try to reroll dice without picking up and rolling them. Or in the case of a digital randomizer, without initiating its randomization function... Reroll is a subtype of Roll. If a Roll does not count as a Reroll it remains a Roll.

ok. there is no rerolling without rolling, but there is rolling without rerolling. you're still ignoring the timing and once per opportunity rule in your interpretation, though. please note that the suggestion says that the dice do not count as having been rerolled.

it doesn't say that the reroll never happened or that we can treat the dice as though they've just been rolled. there is a minute but major difference here. the dice have been through a process after having been rolled, there is no ignoring that. they don't count as having been rerolled, but they haven't just been rolled either. rerolling is not rolling, even if you want it to be. the sentence we both use to support our opinions says it all. if you think rolling is the same thing as rolling again, then that's up to you. to me, it is very clear that some effects in the game requires you to make a roll. if you want to use an ability that lets you reroll those dice after you've rolled them, then by all means go ahead, but i will not agree that you're doing the same thing as when you rolled the original dice from a game technical perspective.

you're still choosing to ignore the once per opportunity rule and have decided that rerolling is the same thing as rolling. can you please explain on what you base these decisions?

Han's timing is after the physical act of rolling and only checks to see if it qualifies as a reroll and thus is limited to only one, per the limit listed in the Dice Modification section, because rerolls still count as such to him per his current wording. If the roll the happens as a result of his ability triggering is no longer counted to him as a reroll then it is still a roll and thus a new opportunity since nothing in the rules states a Reroll is not a Roll.

"Original Roll" is not a term used in the Rules from what I've seen and I would appreciate a citation of where it is if I missed it.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Han's timing is after the physical act of rolling and only checks to see if it qualifies  as a reroll and thus is limited to only one, per the limit listed in the Dice Modification section, because rerolls still count as such to him per his current wording. If the roll the happens as a result of his ability triggering is no longer counted to  him as a reroll then it is still a roll and thus a new opportunity since nothing in the rules states a Reroll is not a Roll.

  "Original Roll" is not a term used in the Rules from what I've seen and I would appreciate a citation of where it is if I missed it.

han timing is after rolling dice. are you saying it's ok to use han after using a lock to reroll a bunch of dice? after all, that's after rolling dice according to your definition. those dice do not count as being rerolled for the purpose of other effects, so in that sense, it should be ok.

original roll is not a term used in the rules, no. i just mean a roll that's not a reroll.

3 minutes ago, meffo said:

han timing is after rolling dice. are you saying it's ok to use han after using a lock to reroll a bunch of dice? after all, that's after rolling dice according to your definition. those dice do not count as being rerolled for the purpose of other effects, so in that sense, it should be ok.

original roll is not a term used in the rules, no. i just mean a roll that's not a reroll.

Currently, and as it should stay, Han considers his ability as a reroll so it is currently limited by that check. If the wording were to change to what was originally suggested why would a Lock even be taken for the reroll effect? His ability would make Locks pointless for rerolling.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Currently, and as it should stay, Han considers his ability as a reroll so it is currently limited by that check. If the wording were to change to what was originally suggested why would a Lock even be taken for the reroll effect? His ability would make Locks pointless for rerolling.

what? hans own ability only lets other effects not regard the dice as having been rerolled. "This does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects." would mean, with your interpretation, that han could reroll dice that have already been rerolled, since his reroll doesn't count as a reroll and there is no restriction that his reroll can only trigger after a roll, but after any reroll as well in accordance with your logic.

if the ability was changed to "After you roll dice, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, you may reroll all of your dice. These dice do not count as having been rerolled.", locks would absolutely be useful for han solo, for a great number of reasons. you might want to reroll when you're not at range 0-1 of an obstacle, you might want to reroll another number of your dice rather than all of them, you might want to use the lock after you've rerolled with his ability etc.

i'm sorry to say i think your interpretation of the suggested wording and your interpretation of his current ability are both completely wacko.

a reroll is not a roll. sure, it's a type of roll, but in game terms, a reroll is a very different thing from a roll.

" a. Roll Attack Dice: The attacking player determines the number of attack dice to roll based on the chosen weapon’s attack value, range bonus, and any abilities that add or remove attack dice. Then they roll that many dice."

"• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again."

these are very different things. similar maybe, but a reroll is definitely not a roll. rolling again is rolling again, it's not determining how many dice should be used and rolling them. it's taking rolled dice and rerolling them. not the same thing.

20 minutes ago, meffo said:

" a. Roll Attack Dice: The attacking player determines the number of attack dice to roll based on the chosen weapon’s attack value, range bonus, and any abilities that add or remove attack dice. Then they roll that many dice." 

20 minutes ago, meffo said:

"• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again."

20 minutes ago, meffo said:

i'm sorry to say i think your interpretation of the suggested wording and your interpretation of his current ability are both completely wacko .

One of our interpretations is for certain... Han's ability refers to the physical act of rolling any dice. Remove the check for if it is a reroll completely by eliminating "for the purpose of other effects" it effectively turns into "When you would roll dice, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, set the dice to show the results you want"...

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

One of our interpretations is for certain... Han's ability refers to the physical act of rolling. Remove the check for if it is a reroll completely by eliminating "for the purpose of other effects" it effectively turns into "When you roll dice, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, set the dice to show the results you want"... 

i don't agree at all. the physical act of rolling is not a game term. you can use the FFG dice app or what have you. hans ability triggers after rolling dice. it does not trigger after a reroll.

that would be game breaking even as it is. it's very badly worded, yes, but not as badly worded as that. hans ability referring to a physical act is simply not true. it refers to a game mechanic, no matter how that game mechanic is being engineered.

13 minutes ago, meffo said:

i don't agree at all. the physical act of rolling is not a game term. you can use the FFG dice app or what have you. hans ability triggers after rolling dice. it does not trigger after a reroll.

that would be game breaking even as it is. it's very badly worded, yes, but not as badly worded as that. hans ability referring to a physical act is simply not true. it refers to a game mechanic, no matter how that game mechanic is being engineered.

A reroll is rolling dice by its own explanation... It is limited to once a few statements below where it is explained. "Physical Act of Rolling" includes using a stinking randomizer in place of physical dice. The point is that Han triggers off of what his controlling player is doing to randomize results involving him by Han's own wording and requires the reroll check that exists in his current wording or he can "roll" till the player gets the results they want.

As for Rolling Dice being a Game Mechanic exclusive of rerolling and not a reference to the act of rolling dice (or using another permitted randomizer, a.k.a. the Dice App), cite where that is specifically outlined...

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

A reroll is rolling dice by its own explanation... It is limited to once a few statements below where it is explained. "Physical Act of Rolling" includes using a stinking randomizer in place of physical dice. The point is that Han triggers off of what his controlling player is doing to randomize results involving him by Han's own wording and requires the reroll check that exists in his current wording or he can "roll" till the player gets the results they want.

As for Rolling Dice being a Game Mechanic exclusive of rerolling and not a reference to the act of rolling dice (or using another permitted randomizer, a.k.a. the Dice App), cite where that is specifically outlined...

no, rerolling dice is very specifically outlined:

"• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again."

that's it. you need to have rolled before to reroll, otherwise you don't fill the criteria and are unable to reroll.

"psysical act of rolling" does not exist in the game. it's something you made up as a reference. of course, the physical act of rolling comes about quite often during a game of x-wing, but it's not always the case.

there are no clear definitions of what constitutes rolling dice in x-wing. how ever, it is common knowledge - and the difference between rolling and rerolling becomes more apparent if you read the rules. especially the rules about attacking, since they deal with both rolling and modifying dice quite a bit.

to take this even further, your definition of rolling dice would let you use saturation salvo at the modify attack dice step if you use a lock or fire control system to reroll one or more die, since rerolling is the same act as rolling according to your logic.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

there are no clear definitions of what constitutes rolling dice in x-wing. how ever, it is common knowledge - and the difference between rolling and rerolling becomes more apparent if you read the rules. especially the rules about attacking, since they deal with both rolling and modifying dice quite a bit.

So you're assuming.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

to take this even further, your definition of rolling dice would let you use saturation salvo at the modify attack dice step if you use a lock or fire control system to reroll one or more die, since rerolling is the same act as rolling according to your logic.

Since you keep dodging in a way and pulling in things that don't apply to Han's ability:

A reroll is a roll that has an additional limiters of "once" added to it and taking place after another roll of the same dice. Unlike Rebel Han pilot Saturation Salvo does not have an effect that specifies it isn't a reroll. Han does with the limitation that he still treats it as a reroll while other effects don't, so he can only "Han" a roll once (the reroll from a spent Lock is an "other effect"). Remove the "for the purpose of other effects" from Han's ability and it is no longer subject to the limitations on rerolls since the reroll rolls would no longer be treated as rerolls at all for any effects including his.

9 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

So you're assuming.

Since you keep dodging in a way and pulling in things that don't apply to Han's ability:

A reroll is a roll that has an additional limiters of "once" added to it and taking place after another roll of the same dice. Unlike Rebel Han pilot Saturation Salvo does not have an effect that specifies it isn't a reroll. Han does with the limitation that he still treats it as a reroll while other effects don't, so he can only "Han" a roll once (the reroll from a spent Lock is an "other effect"). Remove the "for the purpose of other effects" from Han  's ability and it is no longer subject to the limitations on rerolls since the reroll rolls would no longer be treated as rerolls at all for any effects including his.

i am assuming that i know what constitutes a dice roll in general, yes. for attacking and defending it's clearly defined. rolling attack dice and rolling defence dice have very specific timings and don't come about again during modification, which is what you claim happens based on your assumption that rerolling is the same thing as rolling for all intents and purposes.

please define to me how i'm dodging in a way. i will happily pull up as many other examples as i can, because you seem to need it to understand the consequences of your interpretation. you still haven't even mentioned how the suggested wording would not be affected by the once per opportunity rule. that's how you're dodging.

rerolling is a very different game effect than rolling. rolling is done with dice to determine the outcome of a specific scenario. rerolling is a modification done to dice that have already been rolled. or is that all just assumptions?

saturation salvo does not apply to hans ability, it does how ever apply to the example at the end of the rules reference which also touches on the OPs question, but has been mostly ignored through out this thread. please tell me how any dice can be ineligible to be rerolled with han solos ability if he isn't limited by magva. his card clearly states his reroll doesn't count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects, so it doesn't matter if the dice have already been rerolled, right?

"ROLLING AND REROLLING DICE

Q: If a card such as Han Solo [YT-1300, Scoundrel for Hire] or Saturation Salvo instructs a player to reroll “all dice” or a specific number of dice but there are not enough eligible dice, what happens?

A: The player rerolls as many eligible dice as possible.

In the case of Han Solo [Scoundrel for Hire] and other effects that reroll “all dice,” this means that if 1 or more dice are for any reason ineligible to be rerolled or modified, Han Solo still rerolls the available dice that are eligible.In the case of Saturation Salvo and similar effects, if a ship uses Saturation Salvo (which rerolls 2 defense dice) against a ship that rolled only 1 defense die, it can still cause that ship to reroll its 1 defense die by resolving the effect as completely as possible (against the 1 eligible defense die).

Note that if the ship uses Saturation Salvo against a ship that rolled 3 defense dice (for example: 󲁄, blank, blank), it must choose exactly 2 of those dice to be rerolled, as it must resolve the effect as completely as possible (on 2 eligible dice, in this case)."

9 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Remove the "for the purpose of other effects" from Han  's ability and it is no longer subject to the limitations on rerolls since the reroll rolls would no longer be treated as rerolls at all for any effects including his.

again, i don't agree. it doesn't matter. since there is a once per opportunity rule and you've already performed your roll, the dice roll is not being redone because you use han solo, it is being modified. just like every other trigger, it can only happen once per opportunity.

rerolling the dice with han is not making a brand new roll as far as i've understood the rule book and the rules reference. please let me know if you find a place where it says it is. and no, i do not agree that this means a reroll is a brand new roll, in fact i think it means quite the opposite of that.

• Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again.

@meffo you must be fun at parties.

56 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

@meffo you must be fun at parties.

indeed. there is always a party where i'm at.

Yup that's certainly a clarification.

I do wonder if this means they're not going to amend the rules reference. DIsappointing if so.

Yep but at least we have clarity, it's a dice mod that isn't a reroll (and the 3PO thing is cleared up to).