17 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

'These dice do not count as having been rerolled'

12 hours ago, Maui. said:

Han's ability is not a roll, and so cannot trigger itself.

If you roll the dice and it isn't considered a re-roll then it is a new roll of the dice. The limiter in Han's wording being modified as @thespaceinvader suggests would permit him to trigger from his own not a reroll roll.

13 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

If you roll the dice and it isn't considered a re-roll then it is a new roll of the dice. The limiter in Han's wording being modified as @thespaceinvader suggests would permit him to trigger from his own not a reroll roll.

You are incorrect. Han's ability is, in fact, a reroll.

Han's own ability says that it does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects. There's a bunch of things that are squirrely about this ability, but we can be 100% sure that Han's reroll still thinks of itself as a reroll (which, as an aside, means that to begin with, Han's ability can't reroll dice that have already been rerolled or are otherwise ineligible to be rerolled; see the FAQ entry in the Rules Reference for confirmation of this).

4 minutes ago, Maui. said:

You are incorrect. Han's ability is, in fact, a reroll.

Han's own ability says that it does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects . There's a bunch of things that are squirrely about this ability, but we can be 100% sure that Han's reroll still thinks of itself as a reroll (which, as an aside, means that to begin with, Han's ability can't reroll dice that have already been rerolled or are otherwise ineligible to be rerolled; see the FAQ entry in the Rules Reference for confirmation of this).

I underlined the part that the suggestion I had originally replied to would remove . Without that part Han would trigger off his own not a reroll roll since it would flat out not count as a reroll for any effect including his own. ******* read, don't skim man.

9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I underlined the part that the suggestion I had originally replied to would remove . Without that part Han would trigger off his own not a reroll roll since it would flat out not count as a reroll for any effect including his own. ******* read, don't skim man.

T he suggestion also removes the part of the ability that pretends the reroll isn't a reroll. Hence my responses that Han's ability is not a roll, and therefore can't trigger itself. The ridiculous ambiguity of 'hehe this isn't a reroll!' gets snipped right out of there.

1 hour ago, Ryfterek said:

Take a step back to see no one really questions Magva's absolute, golden rules reign over all the re-rolls in the game. You're completely, absolutely right at that. As long as anything is a re-roll, it is controlled and limited by Magva.

We're only pointing out Han is not a re-roll, RAW by his very own ability. Magva falls into "other game effects" bracket from Han's text, so you apply relevant bit of his ability to her.

Why should Magva now be a special snowflake to whom Han's "it's not a re-roll" ability doesn't apply? Yeah, I know she's using "a golden rule", no need to repeat that - why is she taking into consideration Han's operation when she's told directly his operation is not an operation she's interested in?

Edit : now I think about, I bet where we struggle to come to a common understanding is due to how we imagine the abilities apply. To me, Han never "stops to think" whether there are any outside effects limiting his freedom - it's whenever he'd interfere with limitations set by some other effect, that effect "intervene" and stops him from what he's doing. That's why I believe Magva has nothing to do, because from her point of view, there's no re-rolling going on during Han's manipulation.

Would I be wrong to dare to assume in your understanding, it's Han that realises that there are ongoing game effects applied to him that limit his possibilities - such as Magva's - that he then proceeds to try to fulfill and respect? Then it would've been true that Han himself knows well what he's doing is in fact a re-roll in a camouflage and he has to behave.

But then, I find this latter way of thinking somehow overcomplicated. If Magva's on the table, she's free to "step in" under her conditions and tell other ship what to do. But I find it weird these other ships trying to murder her are respectful enough to apply her effect to themselves on their own.

TL;DR: Magva is the source of Magva's effect, not Han, imho, thereby it shouldn't be applied to Han.

ok. step back taken - and you're still claiming magva is not absolute. your rationalization is that han states: "This does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects.". i understand and agree that hans reroll does not count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects.

how ever, maga is absolute. her ability cannot be overridden by other effects - and that's exactly what you're claiming hans ability does when han and magva interacts.

and please don't state hans ability is not a reroll. it is a reroll, it just doesn't count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects. if, on the other hand, those other effects are absolute, then hans cute little "This does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects." has no impact what so ever.

magva is a special snow flake because she's absolute. absolute effects don't care whether other effects are described to not be considered or to be ignored. absolute effects are just that, absolute. they always take precedence.

i appreciate the fact that you try to figure out the differences between where we imagine abilities apply, but that's besides the point. if an effect doesn't have any impact on another ability what so ever, then it can simply be ignored for the remainder of that ability.

han doesn't realize anything, no. he tries to do his thing. if magva is present, her ability only lets him reroll one dice. i do not think this interaction between two opposing players is intended, mind you, but it's the rules as written.

what han is doing is exactly that, yes. a reroll in camouflage. since magvas effect is absolute, he has to obey it. it doesn't matter that he states "This does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects.". effects that use the word "cannot" must be followed no matter what. there is no getting around that even when reading hans terrible mess of a card. an absolute is an absolute, no ways around it.

no, magva is not free to step in. her effect is both mandatory and absolute at range 0-2. there is no choice anywhere. enemies attacking a friendly ship at range 0-2 cannot reroll more than one attack dice. ever. under any circumstance. unless han rolled really badly when he first threw dice, this is good for him. again, there was probably other intentions for magvas ability, but that's how the rules work.

not that i expect magva vs han to come up much anyway, but we never know. magva is getting quite popular these days with u-wings a leia being a real power house in the meta.

3 minutes ago, Maui. said:

T he suggestion also removes the part of the ability that pretends the reroll isn't a reroll. Hence my responses that Han's ability is not a roll, and therefore can't trigger itself. The ridiculous ambiguity of 'hehe this isn't a reroll!' gets snipped right out of there.

🤨 Riiiight… How it would read with the suggested change:

"After you roll dice, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, you may reroll all of your dice. These dice do not count as having been rerolled  ."

Han checks after he rolls dice, period. The way the above is worded is that the triggering roll is considered to have not happened and the Han'd roll is now the original, including for Han. So any effects that trigger "After you roll dice" are triggered again since another opportunity just happened.

17 minutes ago, meffo said:

if an effect doesn't have any impact on another ability what so ever, then it can simply be ignored for the remainder of that ability. 

Yeah, well... That's kinda my point? Magva has an impact on rerolls.

Han is not a reroll.

What's Han's ability doing would not be overriding Magva's ability - that's an absolute ability and cannot be overridden. I believe it's not a:

Quote

I reroll X dice - No, you can only reroll 1 die - No, I still reroll X dice, FU

kind of scenario, it's:

Quote

I reroll X dice - No, you can only reroll 1 die - Ok, what if I do this other thing to X dice? - Ok, that's fine by me as long as it's not a reroll

I recognise that:

17 minutes ago, meffo said:

her effect is both mandatory and absolute at range 0-2. there is no choice anywhere. enemies attacking a friendly ship at range 0-2 cannot reroll more than one attack dice. ever.

but as this persisting event does not originate from Han's ability, it will be originating from "other ability" and as per Han ability's second part will not recognise Han's actions as rerolling. This bit of Han's ability is also absolute and nonvoluntary - no other game effect, including even the most core rules of the game, like Locking mechanics, can recognise Han's doing as rerolling and apply any sort of conditions, restrictions not benefits coming from rerolling dice to Han.

In the end, it looks like one or the other pilot's ability has to be broken at runtime not to make the game mechanics collapse. Me and my local community, we are in favour of having Han "bamboozle" Magva to escape her influence, since said influence applies to one specific thing and Han is doing specifically not that thing.

This extends further - as Han is doing what's not to be recognised as rerolling and offers no other classification of his operation, it falls out of the definition of dice-modification (it being one of four operations: rerolling, adding, changing to, and spending) and so trumps as well Blinded Pilot critical damage effect and TIE/FO Midnight's pilot ability - both referring to dice being modified.

4 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

Yeah, well... That's kinda my point? Magva has an impact on rerolls.

Han is not a reroll.

What's Han's ability doing would not be overriding Magva's ability - that's an absolute ability and cannot be overridden. I believe it's not a:

kind of scenario, it's:

I recognise that:

but as this persisting event does not originate from Han's ability, it will be originating from "other ability" and as per Han ability's second part will not recognise Han's actions as rerolling. This bit of Han's ability is also absolute and nonvoluntary - no other game effect, including even the most core rules of the game, like Locking mechanics, can recognise Han's doing as rerolling and apply any sort of conditions, restrictions not benefits coming from rerolling dice to Han.

In the end, it looks like one or the other pilot's ability has to be broken at runtime not to make the game mechanics collapse. Me and my local community, we are in favour of having Han "bamboozle" Magva to escape her influence, since said influence applies to one specific thing and Han is doing specifically not that thing.

This extends further - as Han is doing what's not to be recognised as rerolling and offers no other classification of his operation, it falls out of the definition of dice-modification (it being one of four operations: rerolling, adding, changing to, and spending) and so trumps as well Blinded Pilot critical damage effect and TIE/FO Midnight's pilot abilit  y - both referring to dice b  eing modified.

the most prominent marshal in my proximity defines hans ability as a modification - and so it is stopped by both blinded pilot and midnight.

and please do not state hans ability is not a reroll. that is a lie. his card clearly state that "... you may reroll all of your dice.". that is a reroll, whether you like it or not. that is doesn't count as a reroll for the purpose of other effects is a different story.

so you're still claiming that magvas ability is not absolute and han can simply ignore it because of the "This does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects." sentence on his card. that's neither consistent nor reasonable. you know the meaning of the term absolute, right? you're still claiming that the text on hans card about his reroll not counting as a reroll overrides magvas effect, since it explicitly states hans reroll does not count as a reroll. in other words, you're following hans card in favour of magvas. that reasoning has no support in the rules. that magva is absolute and cannot be overridden has all the support it needs in the rules on the other hand.

yes, rules on cards come before rules in the rule book or the rules reference. han even explicitly breaks one of the golden rules straight off the bat. you still cannot just interpret his ability without context or without taking other rules into consideration, which is exactly what you're doing.

again: "If a card ability uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects.". do you know what override means? that's what you're saying han does to magva. do you know what absolute means? that's what you're saying magva is not.

if you really agreed that magva is absolute, there would be no way for any other effect or ability to override her ability. that's what absolute means.

hans ability needs to be fixed, yes. i like @thespaceinvader s idea. seems fair, logical and functional.

4 minutes ago, meffo said:

you're still claiming that the text on hans card about his reroll not counting as a reroll overrides magvas effect, since it explicitly states hans reroll does not count as a reroll

I'm claiming they don't interact at all. Neither has to override another, one talks about blue rectangles, other about yellow circles.

At this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree though.

1 minute ago, Ryfterek said:

I'm claiming they don't interact at all. Neither has to override another, one talks about blue rectangles, other about yellow circles.

At this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree though.

what? hans ability is a reroll. magva restricts rerolls. that han states that his reroll doesn't count as a reroll would be fine in regards to abilities that dealt with rerolls as long as they didn't use "cannot". since magva uses "cannot", her ability cannot be overridden.

none of their abilities mention colors or geometrical shapes. both mention rerolls. to claim they have nothing to do with each other is ignoring the rules and really throwing a disambiguation into the interaction.

well, as stated earlier, to each his or her own. my thanks to you.

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Riiiight… How it would read with the suggested change:

"After you roll dice, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, you may reroll all of your dice. These dice do not count as having been rerolled  ."

Han checks after he rolls dice, period. The way the above is worded is that the triggering roll is considered to have not happened and the Han'd roll is now the original, including for Han. So any effects that trigger "After you roll dice" are triggered again since another opportunity just happened.

That's sheer fantasy. Just because a cat has kittens in the oven doesn't make them biscuits.

There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider Han's results a roll of the dice. There's nothing in the rules or that proposed text to suggest the reroll counts as a new original roll.

27 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That's sheer fantasy. Just because a cat has kittens in the oven doesn't make them biscuits.

There would be absolutely no reason whatsoever to consider Han's results a roll of the dice. There's nothing in the rules or that proposed text to suggest the reroll counts as a new original roll.

You roll the dice for a reroll (Pg. 9 of the Rules Reference, Dice Modification; " Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again. "). If it then doesn't count as a reroll it is a normal roll. Han triggers " After you roll dice, " with no other stipulation other than being at range 0-1 of an Obstacle. The suggestion (" These dice do not count as having been rerolled. ") makes him broken instead of just confusing since he checks after dice are rolled. His current wording (" This does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects. ") prevents him from reroll chaining since he still considers it a reroll while every other effect doesn't. There is no limit in the rules to the number of times dice can be modified other than " Although dice can be modified by multiple effects, each die cannot be rerolled more than once. " which thespaceinvader's suggestion shatters.

17 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Riiiight… How it would read with the suggested change:

"After you roll dice, if you are at range 0-1 of an obstacle, you may reroll all of your dice. These dice do not count as having been rerolled  ."

Han checks after he rolls dice, period. The way the above is worded is that the triggering roll is considered to have not happened and the Han'd roll is now the original, including for Han. So any effects that trigger "After you roll dice" are triggered again since another opportunity just happened.

no, because rerolling is not rolling. rerolling without the dice being counted as having been rerolled is not rolling either.

once per opportunity still applys.

11 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

You roll the dice for a reroll (Pg. 9 of the Rules Reference, Dice Modification; " Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again. "). If it then doesn't count as a reroll it is a normal roll. Han triggers " After you roll dice, " with no other stipulation other than being at range 0-1 of an Obstacle. The suggestion (" These dice do not count as having been rerolled. ") makes him broken instead of just confusing since he checks after dice are rolled. His current wording (" This does not count as rerolling for the purpose of other effects. ") prevents him from reroll chaining since he still considers it a reroll while every other effect doesn't. There is no limit in the rules to the number of times dice can be modified other than " Although dice can be modified by multiple effects, each die cannot be rerolled more than once. " which thespaceinvader's suggestion shatters.

I disagree, but if you really need handholding through it that much: These dice do not count as having been rerolle  d for the purposes of other effects.

That should remove that perceived issue.

The big issue with Han's writing is that the dice simultaneously count as being modified and not. Removing that simultaneity fixes the issue.

3 hours ago, meffo said:

no, because rerolling is not rolling. rerolling without the dice being counted as having been rerolled is not rolling either.

once per opportunity still applys.

Okay, prove it.

45 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Okay, prove it.

Nothing says it is, and that's all the proof you need in an exception based system.

16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nothing says it is, and that's all the proof you need in an exception based system.

Pg. 9 of the Rules Reference, Dice Modification; " Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again . "

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Pg. 9 of the Rules Reference, Dice Modification; " Reroll: To reroll a die result, pick up the die and roll it again . "

That says what a reroll is. It doesn't say that anything that isn't one, is a roll.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I disagree, but if you really need handholding through it that much: These dice do not count as having been rerolle  d for the purposes of other effects.

That should remove that perceived issue.

The big issue with Han's writing is that the dice simultaneously count as being modified and not. Removing that simultaneity fixes the issue.

Either way, this fixes the issue.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

That says what a reroll is. It doesn't say that anything that isn't one, is a roll.

Define a roll as it is outline in the rules..

Move the goalposts some more.

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Move the goalposts some more.

I'm not. Han's trigger is a physical action taken by his controlling player, specifically whenever they roll dice involving his ship he triggers immediately after the roll. Reroll is defined as picking them up and rolling them again. Reroll has a hard limit of 1 instance per modification step. If the reroll isn't considered a reroll then it is still a roll since Han's ability being a Dice Modification does not stop it from being a roll (Original Roll is not a term used in the rules that I have seen, cite its location if you've come across it). Han has to consider his ability a reroll to lock the player from being able to trigger him repeatedly since each time the dice are rolled it is a new opportunity for his ability to trigger. That is why the "hand holding", as you term it, of "to other effects" is necessary. Without it RAW adjusted for your original suggestion would permit Rebel Han Pilot to continually roll till the player gets the results they wanted.

If we've come to an agreement on a wording that would work, and FFG still haven't clarified how it's intended to work, is there any further point in arguing?

8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

If we've come to an agreement on a wording that would work, and FFG still haven't clarified how it's intended to work, is there any further point in arguing ?

Not really.

Back to the OP's original post, Han's ability is a Dice Modification but is only considered a Reroll by him so @Tvboy ruled correctly.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

If we've come to an agreement on a wording that would work, and FFG still haven't clarified how it's intended to work, is there any further point in arguing?

Here's the other thing: If FFG came up with a better text for Han, they could also do a little clean up in the rules reference at the same time, to shut down silly "infinite Han" arguments, depending on however they wanted to phrase Han.

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Okay, prove it.

no need. it's already well established within the documentation that rerolling is different from rolling. to reroll, you need to have already rolled. sure, you can say that rerolling is also rolling and be right about it, but rerolling is still not the same event as rolling. the sentence "after dice are rolled" applies only to immediately after the dice have been rolled. if you later modify those dice by rerolling them, you've missed that opportunity.

i will happily admit it could be even clearer, just like most rules in this game, but it's definitely clear enough for me to be content with @thespaceinvader s suggestion.