Can I use a 1.0 dial in a 2.0 tournament if it's the same. For instance, Empire Ties, Rebel K-wings, Scum Fengs, etc?

Has there been a ruling on this anywhere? thanks,

In a tournament, technically no.

The tournaments regulations, pg 4:

Multiple Faction Ships All ship cards and ship bases in a player’s squad must belong to the same faction. If a player’s ship has different versions in more than one faction, the player may use any version of the miniature and dial that match the full ship name when assembling a squad. All dials must be from Second Edition. Plastic dial backs from the premium maneuver dial kit may be used.

But as ever, if it's a super casual kind of tournament, it's worth asking the TO beforehand.

7 hours ago, RebelRogue said:

In a tournament, technically no.

The tournaments regulations, pg 4:

Multiple Faction Ships All ship cards and ship bases in a player’s squad must belong to the same faction. If a player’s ship has different versions in more than one faction, the player may use any version of the miniature and dial that match the full ship name when assembling a squad. All dials must be from Second Edition. Plastic dial backs from the premium maneuver dial kit may be used.

But as ever, if it's a super casual kind of tournament, it's worth asking the TO beforehand.

I would _not_ want to be the TO who has to try and remember which dials are the same between 1.0 and 2.0, and which dials are not the same.

Especially if they're _very_ similar. 😕

43 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I would _not_ want to be the TO who has to try and remember which dials are the same between 1.0 and 2.0, and which dials are not the same.

Especially if they're _very_ similar. 😕

As long as you're not color blind a quick look at the straight 2 will tell 1e from 2e

2 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

I would _not_ want to be the TO who has to try and remember which dials are the same between 1.0 and 2.0, and which dials are not the same.

Especially if they're _very_ similar. 😕

Easily rule we've adopted locally: TIE Fighters are okay, everything else no. 90% of the time they're why people are asking, anyway.

There are a few others that haven't changed, but they're things like Upsilons and ARC-170s which people should have more than enough of thanks to the conversion kits.

TIE Fighters, meanwhile, both haven't changed and only came in relatively limited numbers in the conversion kits, so more casual players have a legitimate reason not to have enough.

Yeah I was thinking base Feng Fighters

9 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Easily rule we've adopted locally: TIE Fighters are okay, everything else no. 90% of the time they're why people are asking, anyway.

There are a few others that haven't changed, but they're things like Upsilons and ARC-170s which people should have more than enough of thanks to the conversion kits.

TIE Fighters, meanwhile, both haven't changed and only came in relatively limited numbers in the conversion kits , so more casual players have a legitimate reason not to have enough.

2 in the Core, 4 in the Imp kit. Limited?

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

2 in the Core, 4 in the Imp kit. Limited?

Not everyone bought the core. Conversion kits & the promo damage deck meant it wasn't strictly necessary.

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

Not everyone bought the core. Conversion kits & the promo damage deck meant it wasn't strictly necessary.

So the people that refused to buy a core set, which is explicitly stated to be a requirement to play 2.0 (hatched maneuver templates), get a pass, but the people that want to run more than 2 k-wings or lambdas or u-wings or shadowcasters or more than 3 gunboats or fang fighters or TIE Aggressors get told no? Doesn’t seem fair.

But anyway, the default is to require 2.0 dials, because it is a headache to have to prove to each opponent that they are the same, especially if you have the old dial covers that obscure 90% of the dial face. Always check with your local Organizer to see if they’ll give you an exception, but don’t be surprised if they say no. If it’s just for casual play, just check with your opponent first and bring a backup list just in case.

4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

2 in the Core, 4 in the Imp kit. Limited?

Yes, limited. Fortunately for me, my 2 rebel kits mean I have enough dials for all 10 of my TIE Fighters.

Why do I need all 10 to be available? Well, epic will be a thing (One day...) and my son also plays in tournaments and this way we can fly e.g. Vader plus 4 and the Inferno 6 at the same event.

Thank you for reminding about the Rebel Tie. I'm considering flying the ocho just to say I did.

14 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Not everyone bought the core. Conversion kits & the promo damage deck meant it wasn't strictly necessary

you mean that promo deck you got by pre ordering a Core Set?

18 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

I would _not_ want to be the TO who has to try and remember which dials are the same between 1.0 and 2.0, and which dials are not the same.

Especially if they're _very_ similar. 😕

http://xhud.sirjorj.com/xwing.cgi/dialcomp

So one of the guys at my local store uses the 2.0 dials, but the 1.0 dial faces. I wonder if that's technically legal or some strange edge case.

7 hours ago, Koing907 said:

So one of the guys at my local store uses the 2.0 dials, but the 1.0 dial faces. I wonder if that's technically legal or some strange edge case.

I do the same thing, since I hate the style of the new dials - and there's no reason it shouldn't be legal so long as the maneuvers are the correct ones. After all, at that point it's no different from using an 'official' dial cover.

11 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

I do the same thing, since I hate the style of the new dials

Why? I thought the new dials were one of the biggest improvements. You can now see all the options at once without having to buy the deluxe dials. Why do you prefer looking through your options one at a time?

A similar issue came up in 1st edition when FFG decried that dials from one faction could not be used when flying the corresponding ship from another faction (e.g. flying a Rebels list using a Scum Y-Wing dial was not allowed). Someone made a thread saying that the rule solved a problem that did not exist and that players should be allowed to use whatever dial they wanted (corresponding with the ship, of course) as it had no impact on the game. The forum erupted with a crusade of knights sporting "FFG" on their shields instead of red crosses. The arguments went on an on with people refusing to acknowledge that it was a question of form over function. FFG ultimately reversed its rule and, unsurprisingly, the game did not cease to function or to be played. The only resulting change was that the vast majority of the players with collections spanning all three factions had access to more options.

The point is that there is currently a rule that serves no purpose other than protect the integrity of the game from a threat that does not exist. If you want that rule to change, just get this thread past 20 pages of argument and, depending on how insistant FFG is about getting people to buy an additional conversion kits for the sole purpose of using their two spare TIE Fighters, you should be golden.

2 hours ago, Rapture said:

The  point is that  there is currently a rule that serves no purpose other than protect the integrity of the game from a threat that does not exist

I, for one, have exactly no interest whatsoever in memorising the dials that did carry over to 2.0 unaltered, just so I can tell if my opponent is honestly using the 1.0 equivalent or are they trying to "smuggle in" additional blue banks or whatnot. Especially since 1.0 dials are pain in the lower back to go through all of the maneouvres for confirmation.

Next thing we notice, y'all going to play on 1.0 base-boards because the stats are obsolete anyways, initiative is printed on the ship card anyways, and this particular ship doesn't actually use any arc but primary forward, so what's the big deal?

17 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

I, for one, have exactly no interest whatsoever in memorising the dials that did carry over to 2.0 unaltered, just so I can tell if my opponent is honestly using the 1.0 equivalent or are they trying to "smuggle in" additional blue banks or whatnot. Especially since 1.0 dials are pain in the lower back to go through all of the maneouvres for confirmation.

Are you honestly suggesting that someone would attempt to use a 1.0 dial that does not match the corresponding 2.0 dial? Do you really thing that is realistic?

It will not happen. If it did happen, there is no way that such a person would make it though multiple games without the attempted deception being caught. Just like any other modified or improper game component, it would be a desperate attempt to win with almost no chance of long term success. Too many people play enough to know what a ship can or cannot do. The defense to players cheating with improper dials is not everyone memorizing everything, but the guarantee that one of the cheater's opponents will notice the issue and report it.

Also, 1.0 dials cannot be describes as a "pain in the lower back." You just spin them. It is not challenging. Spinning them exposes the moves. There is not anything difficult about it. I will concede that you can scan a 2.0 dial faster, but that will save you less than five seconds to fully twisting the cover of a 1.0 dial.

Finally, the dials are all available online. Confirming what is or is not on a 2.0 dial takes all of the effort of pulling your cell phone out of your pocket and clicking on your squad builder application.

17 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

Next thing we notice, y'all going to play on 1.0 base-boards because the stats are obsolete anyways, initiative is printed on the ship card anyways, and this particular ship doesn't actually use any arc but primary forward, so what's the big deal?

Slippery slope arguments like this are such a waste of time, particularly when they have no actual basis. "Stats are obselete?" What does that even mean? What do dials have to do with bases? Who suggested that ship bases with the incorrect pilot skills and missing the hashes for barrel rolling should be used in 2.0?

The argument is that using a 1.0 dial has no impact on gameplay and you respond by arguing that not that it does, but that it would result in the breakdown of the use of other components that are actually required to properly utilize the mechanics of the rules?

20 minutes ago, Rapture said:

The defense to players cheating with improper dials  is not everyone memorizing everything, but the guarantee that one of the cheater's opponents will notic  e  the issue and report it.

If I go to a multiple rounds tournament, pair with the cheater in the first round, don't notice and loose - will I get my points back if it's noticed next round? Or the round after? No, I don't.

20 minutes ago, Rapture said:

"Stats are obselete?" What does that even mean? What do [1.0] dials have to do with [1.0] bases ?

I mean they are no longer printed on bases in 2.0.

They are both outdated, officially de-legalised cardboard components of the previous edition of the game.

Just as there are some particular dials that don't care much about 2.0 transition, there are some particular pilots with no EPT (for bullseye mechanics), no native barrel roll (dashed on the edge) and access to no turret (side and back arcs) that virtually wouldn't care which base they're put on.

2.0 is a separate, independent board game, not a fancy overlay expansion to 1.0. FFG went all the extra miles to make sure we can carry over ALL plastic components of the game over to 2.0. We are only supposed to replace our cards and cardboards.

There's just a small handful of 1.0 dials that would not impact the gameplay and it's ridiculous to put in a tournament regulations a very specific list of them making an exception to the rules that are set up for readability of both player's experience.

And speaking of readability - just ******ed move on to 2.0 equivalents for the sake of colourblind folks out there, ffs.

20 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

If I go to a multiple rounds tournament, pair with the cheater in the first round, don't notice and loose - will I get my points back if it's noticed next round? Or the round after? No, I don't.

You conveniently skipped these questions:

1) Are you honestly suggesting that someone would attempt to use a 1.0 dial that does not match the corresponding 2.0 dial?

2) Do you really think that is realistic?

I understand that you personally may be concerned with someone cheating by using an improper dial, but that does not make it a legitimate concern. Not to mention the fact that the opponent of a player using a 1.0 dial would instantly be on notice of potential discrepancies between the 1.0 version and the 2.0 version and very likely to check the compatibility of the dial during the first turn. Your fear is completely baseless.

If the blatant cheater that you are suggesting exists is really out there, the cheater would enter a tournament knowing that being caught was almost guaranteed. Cheaters typically show up for the purpose of winning and getting caught eliminates the potential for winning. A cheater is just as likely to show up with a two foot long range ruler as they are to show up with a dial containing the incorrect maneuvers for a ship.

Nothing else that you said is relevant. Particularly the comments about substituting 1.0 bases for 2.0 bases.

54 minutes ago, Rapture said:

1) Are you honestly suggesting that someone would attempt to use a 1.0 dial that does not match the corresponding 2.0 dial?

2) Do you really think that is realistic?

I do. Because as soon as 1.0 dials would be officially allowed at the tournament scene, they will no longer cause an alert in the opponents seeing them across the board. Your point being that someone sure would notice is strong as long as everyone would focus on keeping an eye on these dials. But they won't with what you propose. Meanwhile, even at high-level plays, featured on streams and having a live commentary, I constantly see people missing assigning stress tokens, missing crit triggers, etc. People lose their focus. I don't share your believe someone sure would notice the difference in the dials, especially since 1.0 dials cover up 90% of their content consistently. And it's not about whether or not I think there's this tosser lurking out there, waiting for their shot, but about not setting up precedence and the opportunity in the first place.

54 minutes ago, Rapture said:

Nothing else that you said is relevant. Particularly the comments about substituting 1.0 bases for 2.0 bases.

Well, I do find it relevant. Also, you're not the absolute judge of finding anything I post relevant or not - Personally, I find the whole thread irrelevant but then here we are.

In the conversion kit, you will find enough dials but not enough bases to field 3x or 4x of certain generic pilots. If so, wouldn't replacing the "missing" base copies with 1.0 equivalents cause at least a bit less confusion than using a 2.0 base from a different pilot, when bases feature initiative and name tags?

I'll put in in a different perspective - Are you mate honestly suggesting that FFG should

• make a vague, case-specific exception to the "no-first-edition" policy in their game,
• and specifically, do so in its official tournament rules
• just because there's some handful of players out there that
  • treat this game seriously enough
    • to go to higher tier tournament
    • and to own an extensive amount of copies of some bunch of ships
      • that cannot be covered with one conversion kit
      • but for sure would be covered by two kits
    • but they are too cheap to buy another Kit
  • and who are antisocial enough not to have a single fellow soul to borrow the missing dials from?

At your kitchen table and FLGS you can use 2.0 dials, 1.0 dials, make a deck of manoeuvre cards, draw them in sand or do whatever you wish, for in this setting all I care about is for you to have fun, really.

But we're talking tournament regulations here. After a long day at the venue, after a couple of rounds, I simply don't have the focus, nor energy, nor patience to have to double check your legacy dials because you think they should be all fine to you and me.

38 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

I do. Because as soon as 1.0 dials would be officially allowed at the tournament scene, they will no longer cause an alert in the opponents seeing them across the board. Your point being that someone sure would notice is strong as long as everyone would focus on keeping an eye on these dials. But they won't with what you propose. Meanwhile, even at high-level plays, featured on streams and having a live commentary, I constantly see people missing assigning stress tokens, missing crit triggers, etc. People lose their focus. I don't share your believe someone sure would notice the difference in the dials, especially since 1.0 dials cover up 90% of their content consistently. And it's not about whether or not I think there's this tosser lurking out there, waiting for their shot, but about not setting up precedence and the opportunity in the first place.

FFG saying that identical 1.0 dials can be used will stop people from considering the possibility that their opponent may be cheating? Be serious.

What does forgetting to assign a stress token have to do with any of this? You are stamping your feet about the potential for intentional deception by using improper game components and are supporting it by citing to the very common occurrence players missing critical hit triggers? Do you not see yourself desperately reaching outside of the argument to prop yourself up? That is a sign of a weak argument. You should reconsider.

Regarding your concern of "opportunity" to cheat:

1) Why are you not advocating for only using the dice application? It would stop players from the almost undetectable method of cheating by using altered dice.

2) Why are you not advocating for only using the 2.0 Core Set maneuver templates? It would stop players from using modified custom templates.

3) What about acrylic range rulers?

My point is that you do not actually care about opportunities to cheat. You only care about this opportunity to cheat (which, again, would almost guarantee getting caught and is just about the dumbest way to cheat that I can think of). I respect the fact that you have found your bridge to die on, but you should really reconsider.

38 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

In the conversion kit, you will find enough dials but not enough bases to field 3x or 4x of certain generic pilots. If so, wouldn't replacing the "missing" base copies with 1.0 equivalents cause at least a bit less confusion than using a 2.0 base from a different pilot, when bases feature initiative and name tags?

No one, other than yourself is even suggesting that 1.0 bases be used in 2.0 (as it would make it impossible to use all of the game mechanics, like being tractor beamed, barrel rolling, or anything to do with a bullseye arc). Whatever point you are trying to make is not working.

38 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

I'll put in in a different perspective - Are you mate honestly suggesting that FFG should

• make a vague, case-specific exception to the "no-first-edition" policy in their game, ( [I must have missed that global policy. I have been using a bunch of 1.0 of models and dice. I also use my 1.0 shield tokens that I won.]
• and specifically, do so in its official tournament rules [ You have a undesirable tendency to exaggerate and make things sound more vastly difficult than they actually are. You honestly can't come up with reasonable language for the exception? You also do not think that a professional game designer at FFG can not either? Stop. ]
• just because there's some handful of players out there that
  • treat this game seriously enough
    • to go to higher tier tournament
    • and to own an extensive amount of copies of some bunch of ships
      • that cannot be covered with one conversion kit
      • but for sure would be covered by two kits
      • but they are too cheap to buy another Kit [ You keep making this about things that it is not. The only question is whether or not it would have a negative impact on the game. You yourself, by establishing that the poor and friendless (your characterization, not mine) among us might be able to play different lists if the restriction did not exist, so we have a benefit. You are clinging to the argument that serious (and very obvious) cheating will occur, which is the perceived negative. ]
  • and who are antisocial enough not to have a single fellow soul to borrow the missing dials from? [ You are all over the place. What does that have to do with the benefit vs. the harm? Antisocial? Maybe they play primarily on vassal and do not congregate with other players other than at tournaments. Maybe they are traveling and do not want to borrow a friend's components for the trip? You honestly can't think of instances where someone could not secure extra dials? You are being obtuse. ]

My responses are in brackets. You are trying so hard to cling on to your argument that you keep leaving the fundamental question behind - would this be good for the game, or would this be bad for the game?

Other than the (highly unlikely) deeply confident and stupid cheater that you think is lurking around (and maybe the difference between the "easy" maneuvers being green vs. blue, which is still a bad argument, but you would be doing at least slightly better with it), there is no argument against the 1.0 dials. The positive is obvious and you acknowledged it. Unless you have a better argument? I am always waiting to be convinced.

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

What    does forgetting to assign a stress token have to do with  any of this?  You are stamping your feet about the potential for intentional deception by using improper game components  and are supporting it by citing to the very common occurrence players missing critical hit triggers? Do you not see yourself desperately reaching outside of the argument to prop yourself up? That is a sign of a weak argument. You should reconsider.

Point is, people get sloppy during an average tournament so it's not a given they would detect a fraud/mistake/missunderstanding.

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

Why  are you not advocating for only using the dice  application? It would stop players from the almost undetectable method of cheating by using altered dice.

Foremost because the thread is about dials, so I talk about dials.

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

Why  are you not advocating for only using the 2.0 Core Set maneuver templates  ? It would stop players from using modified custom  templates

Foremost because the thread is about dials, ...

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

What  about acrylic  range rulers  ?

Foremost...

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

No  one  , other than yourself is even suggesting that 1.0 bases be used in 2.0 (...) Whatever  point you are trying to make is not working.      

So, my edge-case request to let me into a tournament with 1.0 components is not working.

Yet, your edge-case request to let you into a tournament with 1.0 components is working.

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

You honestly can't come up with reasonable language for the exception? You  also do not think that a professional game designer at FFG can not either?

After all the cards I've seen in both editions of this game, figuring out a decent, complete and unambiguous wording for a rule is about the last thing I would trust these devs with, sorry-not-sorry.

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

I must         have missed that global policy. I have been using a bunch of 1.0 of models and dice.  I also use my 1.0 shield tokens that I wo   n  . 

Good job on winning, congrats. If only you were skillful enough to figure out I obviously mean they didn't allow any cards and cardboards (except of tokens) that would be even greater.

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

You  honestly can't think of instances where someone could not secure extra  dials   ? 

I can easily think of instance someone could not secure whole bases, ships, cardboards, cards, tokens, templates and dice when prepping for a tournament, but what does that have to do with anything at all, really? Either you come to the tournament prepared or you don't, who actually cares? You miss some pieces and you either play a different squadron or don't play at all.

33 minutes ago, Rapture said:

The  only question is whether or not it would have a negative impact on the  game.

The only question of the thread is whether or not it is legal to use 1.0 dials in 2.0 tournament and it has been throughoutly answered in the first response to the thread.

Then you've posted with an argument that the rules as they are are unnecessary, and could and should be changed. This is what I argue with.

Drop your argument that 1.0 dials should be legalised in the tournament environment and I'll stop arguing.

Your argument for letting them into the tournament scene is, be honest, nothing more than that you or any player X has some of these dials, which technically don't change how the game plays. And you can't put your hands on some 2.0 copies.

My argument is, spare anyone dozen bucks on another conversion kit and simply play by the rules we've been given. Or borrow before tournament. Write on the event page the day before and someone sure will bring you the dials. Simple.

Cheers.

20 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

After all the cards I've seen in both editions of this game, figuring out a decent, complete and unambiguous wording for a rule is about the last thing I would trust these devs with, sorry-not-sorry.

"Sorry-not-sorry?" Act your age.

The game has a huge number of rules and complex interactions between them. The majority of the rules and their wording do not have issues. Pretending that FFG can not come up with somehting for such a simple situation is stupid.

Besides, your attempt at deflection is obvious. Just acknowledge that you started in a bad position and were desperate to come up with anything to support it, including deriding other players for being unable to afford an additional (and likely mostly unnecessary) expansion kit and not have sufficient friends who play and will lend them components.

20 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

So, my edge-case request to let me into a tournament with 1.0 components is not working.

Yet, your edge-case request to let you into a tournament with 1.0 components is working.

Did I not, literally in the post that you quoted, set out explicitly why 1.0 bases are incompatible with the gameplay mechanics for 2.0? Did you miss that? The problem with your "edge-case" is that you put just as much time into it as the rest of your argument (meaning an insufficient amount). So, if you are going to assert that they have some kind of equivalency, go ahead an explain how using 1.0 bases and using 1.0 dials present the same issues. The mental gymnastics from you on this one should trump even your previous arguments in this thread. I will wait.

Your arguments make it evident that you reached your conclusion first and then came up with your argument. Try going in the opposite order. It will result in some clarity and less reactive grasping. Anything more to you would just be me repeating myself. Our arguments speak for themselves.