I was wondering if there was anyone here that thought that Clerics should have a way to get Pure Faith. I've decided that the cleric in the campaign I'm running is going to able to buy it now for 350 (he's at 6000+xp at this point), with purge the unclean available for 400, and blessed radiance availble at 500. I may have him wait a level in between each upgrade, though...

Thoughts?

I think it's quite acceptable if he plays his character in such a way that he is a Cleric that is, well, pure.

Go for it. Just remember that Pure Faith essentially imposes the paladin's code of 40k onto the character - you are being held to a very high standard of behaviour, and not by any worldly authority.

I thought the straight trasport of the TT Mechanic very limmiting for a RPG and personnally would allow ANY devout character access to the SoB Faith Point Abilities, it really has nothing to do with them being SoB its all about their Faith and Devotion. That isn't limited by your Career but a matter of play. Unlike in a TT game where all units of a given type and points value are EXACTLY the same that isn't the case for a Role Playing Game.

Dark Heresy doesn not read as a direct translation of Inquisitor or the Witch Hunter's or Daemon Hunter's Codex, nor should it. SoB in games I run won;t just have acess to the Faith Abilities on the merit of being a SoB alone ( just becasue in the current TT rules that's one of their 'defining merits') they must act acordingly. Likewise a zealot that was a Psyker, Guardsman, Assassin, Scum, Cleric or Arbite would all have access to such Traits or Talents providing they were aproriately demonstratiive of such a merit.

However one must keep in mind that the type of character a player makes will often dictat the kind of character they intend to play or portray, hence you'll unlikely to see the Tech Priest adhering to the Imperial Creed, and constantly lauding the greatness and holy infalibility of the Emporer, nor are you likely to have that Scum who's constly running off to the cathdral or the Psyker who longs to join the Cult of the Red Redemption. Although you might.... Likewise you're unlikely to have the SoB player who's feeling for those poor twists in the Shatters and who's all torn up about popping ole' Baron U. (again you might but not likely.)

A mechanic that's sole purpose is to represent the purity and power of faith in the Empoer shouldn't be limmited by the 'Class' of the PC but by there character. Jaq Draco would likely have had (at one point) acess to such wells of faith and adour that would put most SIsters to shame the same is true for many characters who like Sisters are thourghly 100% unquestioningly devoted to the Emporer, 'balance' aside I'd propbly say most Marines would qualify fo such feats as well. These are of course my opinons and I am sure mostl likely in the minority. I just though I'd share as it's come up here but I had decided the very momment I read the SoB chapte rin the IH that I'd allow the Pure Faith to be avalible to chracter from other CLasses providing they met the requirements (which I do not limmit to just being a woman raise by the Minostratium.)

Wu Ming has good points, and Snidesworth boiled down what I would have said.

So yeah give it a go. Just let him know that once he goes down that path, he's going to have to be wary of corruption points...any and all, especially if they come from a power inflicted on him while he's down or having a bad die day. If he can RP it, then all the better. The Emperor works in mysterious ways with the faithful.

Just always keep in mind: With greater power comes greater responsibility. (And a slightly more resticted personal code ala the Sisters of Battle) Not to mention a bigger fall from grace should that happen. Could play an interesting story-line hook for him and you though. Not to mention if any of your groups members decide to go the opposite route and take a Dark Pact or finds a minor mutation or two along the way.

I pointed this very thing out in the playtest feedback. There is nothing inherently unique about a sister of battle (no organs, psychic ability etc) which means their faith powers come entirely from their belief and piety. Thus, so long as someone has the same level of belief and piety as an adepta sororitas they should also be able to manifest miraculous powers. It doesn't make sense otherwise (unless the Emperor is sexist and only gives teh powerz to teh laydeez).

I have no problems with guardsmen, arbitrators or even TECH PRIESTS (on the very rare and interesting occasion) receiving that ability. Although you can vouch for the piety of a sister (due to their grueling training) not all CLERICS are similarly pious. Some may be more political.

For Cleric PCs I would have the Pure Faith Talent as an option at the beginning of character creation dependent on the personality of the character. I would make it a roll or choose table (just like everything else in DH) something like this:

Clerical Disposition

01-30 Militant (receive +3 to WS)

31-80 Political (receive additional Peer Group)

81-00 Pious (receive Pure Faith Talent)

This could be expanded out to look a bit like the psyker sanctioning table, but the above is the 3 'types' of cleric I think are most common to the Imperium. Not all clerics are Pure of Faith (unlike in D&D).

Hellebore

Yeah, this dude is most definitely the Pious type. He shouldn't have too hard a time resisting corruption points since he has flagellent, as well. He will, however, need to whip himself extra to get rid of some of his corruption points that he already has. I forget how he racked them up, but he's at 9 right now...we'll see how that goes.

Thanks for everyone's input.

I definitely think there needs to be a distinction between a Cleric who is basically a normal person who is holy who eventually has so much faith that they can do miraculous things, and a sister of battle who is raised, schooled, trained, whipped, beaten, and prayed for, for the specific reason of making her the most pious, devout, unassailable thing that ever was. I feel like the average sister of battle has truckloads more piety and "faithpower" than the average cleric.

Interesting idea Hellebore.

Just curious though, what if the rightious character gets 'corrupted' along the way? Character concept is great and all, but during the course of play, some characters (and players) may change thier minds just a tad about what path they see Mr. Pious going down. Would they then lose the bonus granted by thier now-hallow faith, just as Pure Faith, until redeemed or cleansed?

On a side note and in the same vain: has anyone thought of clerics with more 'magik' abilities, such as Warhammer Fantasy clerics? The power of faith being thier empowerment and all. Similar in psi-abilities to an adept (perhaps a max of rating 1 or 2 because of the lack of formal training/knowledge reading in the Imperial Cult and useage). Replacing certain skills and talents for them? Just a thought because I have seen certain Battle Priests on the field in Warhammer 40K have very limited use powers to help inspire and morale the troops in a very non-mudane sense. My apologies if someone has already put this into errata already. Seeing if there's any presedence for this.

Solardream said:

I believe the talent says that if the character ever reaches a specific level of corruption they can't use their Talent anymore (I think it may even be 1+ corruption points). So there is provision in the rules for someone to lose their Pure Faith abilities.

Solardream said:

The Pure Faith Talent is the only kind of supernatural ability clerics would get. Unlike WFRP priests, clerics in the Imperium aren't psykers. Religious power in 40k is restricted to the Sisters of Battle abilties. The priests in the guard codex have a righteous fury ability but it's more of a demagogic ability than any kind of psychic power.

Hellebore

An interesting note: I've been told that the Psychic Null background choice from DotDG, when taken, prevents the character from developing a Psy Rating or Pure Faith, which says all sorts of things about the latter.

That for a game with rules and mechanics where devolopers are worried about players Making SoB and then buying Null might be 'unballanced'? Nobles Forge Worlders, and Schola Raised PCs are aperently 'immune' to being Psykers what might that say? (even though Jaq Draco was Schola Rasied and quite the Potent Pious Psyker) Sometimes rules and the abstractions they represent are more reflective of articfical 'ballance' and less representive on how something actually functions within the univerese.

Pure Faith is not suposed to be representive of any psychic abilities if though that's the stance you might take for your games it would be interesting, especially if you allowed a Soritas to discover this or other Purtitans, or Redeptionist and then watch the purging of the Witches begin.

Any miraculous ability manifested by a pious individual WILL be a psychic phenomena, because it will be warp empowerment from a warp entity.

The abilities of the sororitas are more akin to the marks of chaos for chaos champions etc, or chaos rewards. Abilities that are gifted by a warp entity but are not technically psychic power.

The most that a cleric of chaos would get is a mark of their god. I don't see much of a difference.

However there is a difference between the miraculous and pushing the human maximum. A person driven by their piety can push beyond normal endurance not because they've been bolstered by warp power but simply because of their mental fortitude due to their belief. Most 'miracles' are going to be the latter, whilst the extreme abilties of the sororitas will be the former.

Hellebore

I cannot disagree more, regarding Soritas & 40,000. Reason being the Emporer himself seemed to have had a Necho-esque take on dieties, he did not think that people should venerate such warp entities, nor do I think he, himself would assist or approve of the contemporary 'followers' of his. It also kind of defeats his aspirations of the 'realised race' of humanity (i.e a psychically potent race more akin to himself.)

However if you are positing that all Soritas are in fact venerating another Warp Power eitihier a diffrant exsiting entity like say Malal or a new being born long ago to represent 'the Emporer' than perhaps I might more readily buy into your premis. However as things currently stand I am more inclined to see such abilities as functioning purely as manifestations of supernatural feats of sheer willpower fueled by extreme devotion and belife.

Just look at the accounts of the romans regarding the zealots and siccari and their utter bafflement and wonderment at their seeming unatural abilities such as not even crying out durring extreme torture, a feat which has even being atribbuted to their children. Such acts of utter devotion are not uncommon to our history, and both historical and contemprary accounts are full of examples of seemingly 'supernatural' abilty being posessed by individuals of indetermitable will as a product of their faith.

I would say the Pure Faith abilities are just those. Acts of Faith, the fact that Coruption Points disrupts or suspends them could be used as a mechanical evidence if you will of their non-psychic non-warp origins, as CPs tend to represent the exsposure and influence of the immaterium more than anything else and seems to have NO effect at hindering psychic abbilities and in some cases is actualy a requirement for some abilities (like Psychic Vampire).

Chaos Champions are Chaos Champions, Wytches are Wytches Psykers are Psykers and Sorcerors are Sorcerors and yes Soritas are Soritas. I stand by my affirmation that many of the rules are in effect not because they are representing the actual physics of the 40,000 Universe but to represent an artificial 'balancing' mechinism menat to make the game 'fair'. Really anyone whose not a Blank or Null can become a (or be a) Psyker, Nascent or otherwise, in DH that's not the case you must be from a specific Home World and take the 'Psyker' Career, is this representitive of the actual 40K universe or simply an artifice making for a more 'balanced' engine?

Everyoe is free to their own views of the universe official or otherwise and free as well to run thier games in a manner that thry like, I'm not trying to squelch the freedom or right to an unique 40K experience, just voicing that the above opinon regarding Soritas and the genisis of their abilities is just that, an opinion, and not insofar as I am aware an acutual 'fact' explained by the source or background material.

What's that got to do with it? The emperor doesn't have ANY control over who or how he is worshipped. He didn't WANT to be worshipped in the first place. Don't you think he'd just deny the whole thing then?

Humanity worshipped an IMAGE of the emperor. They could not and cannot know what he truly is so they created a caricature of him. Worship creates gods. it's that simple. The Emperor humanity worships is nothing like the emperor that actually existed, for one, he's a god. So they worshipped the emperor and that emotion and soul power formed a nascent warp god called The Emperor. It couldn't do anything else. Exactly the same way the eldar created Slannesh (although much more focused than that, as Slannesh didn't have a centralised church of worship per se). The way gods form in 40k is very explicit. Thus, when humanity worships the emperor, they created the emperor. The image the Ecclesiarchy holds up as the Emperor is nothing like his true self, so what do you think happens when trillions and trillions of people turn their every devotion to that concept? The same thing that happens every other time trillions of sentient creatures worship something, a god forms.

The abilities given to the Sororitas on the Table Top ARE supernatural. They can have an invulnerable save that somehow prevents antitank weapons from obliterating them. They produce an anti psychic field that stops enemy psychic attacks working. They can put their fists through power armour. None of these are within the scope of a normal human being. They aren't a case of pushing the human body to the limit, they are doing things that only daemonically possessed individuals can replicate. Saint Celestine can come back from the dead if you kill her. There is no coming back from being hit by a battlecannon unless you have some unnatural warp based power. Thus, the 40k universe portrays the sororitas powers as supernatural abilities not within the scope of a normal human.

I'm not sure where you think everything I said is hearsay, it's all based on the background as presented by Games Workshop. The followers of gods receive powers from them as rewards. That is fact. A worshipper of Khorne is marked by Khorne, becoming unnaturally bloodthirsty and violent. Followers of Nurgle become pustulant and resistant to disease. Followers of Khaine develop supernatural combat abilities (Exarchs and Exarch powers as described since 2nd ed). Thus the logic is pretty much definitive that followers of the GodEmperor would generate their own abilities. Whether that is literally the withered husk sitting on the throne or a Star Child created by the masses worshipping a fractured image of that husk is immaterial to that.

If they DO worship the Emperor in his entirety (somehow) that worship alone will affect how the godform thinks. Just as eldar anger and human anger produce two different but similar gods (Khaine and Khorne). Humanity sees the God Emperor in a specific light, so their worship will FORCE change onto him, make him fit that mould simply by worshipping that specific image. The soul that forms the Emperor cannot stand against the trillions of emotions and souls that fuse with him under worship.

So either there is a seperate god construct made by humanity in a caricature image of the Emperor or the true emperor has simply been subsumed into a construct built around an idealised image of him.

Necoho is not worshipped. The less worship that goes on the more powerful he becomes. Followers of the Emperor all worship him - don't you think that if a god of atheism can stop people worshipping it he would too? Shouldn't the Church of the God Emperor be the 'Organisation for the Secular Hero, The Emperor' or something? Shouldn't 'true' worshippers of the Emperor be atheists? If he is like Necoho and lack of worship and belief in gods empowers him, then surely the Emperor is now dead or completey decayed due to the overabundance of worship that has such a negative effect on him?

There is a galactic movement of worship for the God Emperor. Atheist gods are powered by lack of worship. Ergo, the Emperor is not an atheist god ala Necoho or he would encourage lack of worship (just as Tzeentch encourages change, or Slannesh encourages excess).

Now what exactly is your argument for refuting that?

Hellebore

I have no argument.

I don't wish to enter into any debate, or discourse, or argument regarding the inconsistent and often subjective metaphysics and quasi-theology of of the Warhammer & Warhammer 40,000 universes. I've seen and at times participated in the endless cyclic circular 'discussions' that always seem to result from such exchanges. Your views expressed in your post are logically derived, and I can see and follow easily the path that led you to your view(s). I disagree with your interprations,, which isn't to say you are incorrect just that I disagree.

Likewise I've based my views on established material from Games Workshop (or their subsidaries Flame, Citidel, Hogs Head ect.) and I've come to diffrent conclusions, devolped diffrent views, and reached diffrent understandings of the same materials and sources. Its possible on many aspects of teh setting we agree, its likely we do not. However whichever the case I shall not enage in any refutation of your stated views nor present counter-views as I really don't think anything will come of the discourse. I'm not casting any aspirations on you, so please don't take offense its just been based on mys past experiences with discussions on this very topic which has left my a bit reluctant (so basically: Its not you its me... )

As regards your TT refrence I can only point back to my previous post, and add that TT is TT there are many descrepinsies between what occurs in TT and what occurs in RPG and I think most of what happens in TT are there more to provide intersting flavours, to make each army 'unique' in more than a purely cosmetic fashion, its intersting to note that the SoB recently got these 'supernatural' powers, while they've been in exsitence since the begining ( Rogue Trader ) they have only recently since the WItch Hunter Codex been ascribed these abilities.

SoB aren't psykers, they aren't marines, they needed something to give them both flavour and to make them apealing as troops over other options. Regarding specifcally SoB and someone expictly stating that they're abilites are meant to reprsent they're supernatural 'chaos rewards' or unconsious psychic gelsalt abbilities it is at the end of the day your opinon. And its a fair one, I'm not arguing that its not, I'm just saying I disagree. And to my knowlegde nothing of the sort has been stated regarding Soritas.

There are numerous aspects of the setting that I hate and will NEVER allow into my games, Necrons, C'tan, Tau, Hrud there are other purged or expunged aspects that remain despite officially no longer exsiting Mala, Solkan, Arinka, Zoats, Squats ect. however I would never debate or argue whther or not 'officially' Tau should be in or are in the 40,000 setting or whether Solkan or Squats are officially out there if GW wants Batlemech Piloting alines in their game its in. If they want Space Dwarfs and Reptilian Centaurs out they are out. However if I want them in MY game that's another thing altogether...

My point?

While your stance regarding Soritas and the origins of their abilities is a valid interprtation based on the setting and the rules its still your interprtation, and until I've seen evidence stating that that is the official GW 40,000 stance on the matter it will contiue to be just that. That doesn't mean it isn't valid, nor that other players shouldn't feel free to take up the same view and implmentation of in their games of DH. I can see hwo your ideas would make for very good side points or even the main focus of DH games (something I think I aluded to in previous posts.) I just don't except it is THE singular conclusion or ONLY answer.

Seriosuly and sincerly I don't want to offend or antagonise anyone so if ANYTHING in my post has upset anyone know its not intentionally but due most likely to my ineloquence in electronic and other forms of communication.

Wow, I look away for a minute and this turns into a full blown meta-theological discussion! Allow me to philophosize...

To my eyes, Acts of Faith and Miracles and such are fuelled by something other than warpcraft. I don't really buy that the Emperor has become a full blown God in the form of the Chaos Gods or Khaine. The reason being is that I picture him as being much more present in this layer of reality than those Gods are. I don't see him as existing mostly in the warp where he moves with his own purposes and bestows his favor on his loyal subjects. I picture him as being shackled to this side of the Veil where he is more limited in his scope. He can pretty much be all present and help out where people have him on their minds, but he can't truly pass over to the next plane. Perhaps, if he was able to ascend, he could mastermind the evolution of humanity into a psychic race capable of defending itself from the predations of the Gods, but for now, he is stuck as the Psychic Lighthouse.

I picture him as projecting a layer of protection over all of humanity that they can tap into if they are pure enough of purpose and faith. He would rather that their faith should be in the power of humanity to overcome all odds, rather than in than Himself, but it's their faith in Him that give them the conviction to persevere. Whether that would be an innate psychic power or some kind of warptaint, or simply some "next-level" powers of conviction is anyone's guess. I'd prefer it if humanity and the Emperor were breaking the shackles of reality and were creating their own "warp" that they could tap into that would be free of the predators and corruption that is the current Warp. A layer of reality that the Emperor could guide them through, and protect them from, and allow them access to in times of need. Of course, while he's stuck here, he's not going to be able to do that, so Humanity is pretty well good and screwed.

It is also interesting to note that there are Atheistic views of the Emperor still in existence, but it doesn't seem to stop people from venerating him anyway. The Astartes put him pretty much in the category of "that guy was totally awesome!" rather than "God", whereas for anyone else to suggest that would pretty much get them flogged and eaten by masses of insane zealots.

That being said, everyone here is pretty well informed and have come to their own conclusions, which I think is totally awesome. I'm glad that everything is so open to interpretation and that we have so much information to draw from, yet still so few solid answers. I feel like it is important to maintain that level of guess work, because the 40K universe is doing just the same thing. All of the different factions are pretty much arguing over the things that we're arguing about, and they don't have any more solid answers than we do.

Just like real religion, when it comes to 40K lore, everyone thinks they're right, and have the proof to back it up. You just gotta pick one to believe. Or call them all crazy and ignore them. Or make up your own.

Well Black Priest of Maccabeus (IHB pg 54-55) can get Pure Faith for 300XP and Purge the Unlclean for 300XP as early as rank 4. So I dont see why not let your priest have it.

Any origin can technically have any career. It just isnt standard or common enough.

But that would be an interesting background package or alternate career rank or elit package. Emperor's Blessing: Character can have Pure Faith and etc etc.....

Santiago, Patriot, N0-1-H3R3 get writing on it now

Peacekeeper_b said:

This is of course true. However when I stated things to the contrary in my posts in this thread I was pointing out one of the 'balancing' abstractions of the Homeworld system of the RAW which disallows this despite the obvious, as you pointed out, conflict with the established background material.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Also of interesting note, as I was rereading the section on Soritas in the IH the otherday to prepare for one of my player's who will be running a Sister I came across the following (bottom of p. 50):

'The Adepta Soritas and certain other blessed individuals ...'

So right there interestingly enough at the begining of the Power of Faith section is the state that others can also have the abilities. Just food for thought.

Exactly my point. If Black Priests can have it, that means that other people can get it at some point too.

Also, my Sister of Battle character in the campaign I'm actually playing in now has Wrath of the Righteous and I can't wait to cleave some scum with it.