18 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think I'm just a very bad player!

The individual ship is easy, sure, because it has 3 greens and a ridiculously good dial plus a rear arc.

But using these ~40 points well enough to win games is not exactly easy. Play against a 5 Yions or BBBBA or some scum han+fenn lists and tell me your secrets!
And if it is so easy, please go ahead and play extended with them. They are ez mode after all.

Ummm, a couple of things. First, I didn't mean to insult you, but you're not the only one with experience with running 5RZA (I've actually followed and enjoyed your thread, so I can understand your reaction here). I have been playing them -- among other lists -- since December as well but have about 12-15 games with them and I have yet to lose.

My point was addressing the comment that this list "doesn't allow for a single mistake," which to me was, frankly, preposterous. There's a long way between that and "EZ mode," though. I already gave my reasons why I think the 5 RZ2 list allows for plenty of mistakes and I stand by it despite not having as many games as you. I'm not sure what you've flown before, but in general, I've flown 3-5 arc based ship lists since Wave 3 and have a respectable record with those types of lists. I use this comparison because I just realize that, in general, I have so many more options for decisions with RZ2s than I do with a similar ship that doesn't have linked actions and a rear arc option (often with more expensive ships).

In the end, I have been looking forward to flying good Awings for a long time and after a bunch of games with them, these just don't fly the way I thought Awings would and that feels like it's in large portion due to the rear arc.

12 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

That is why I don't agree with saying that A-wings are ez mode (otherwise: where are they in extended?!) and the rear arc is annoying/amazing but not the key component. Free boost + optics is. E: or rather all together of course. But optics play a huge part that is severly underestimated. If interceptors had 2h2s at i3 and 40pt, I'd give that a try too. Or RZ1s with optics.

You're right that it's a combination, but the rear arc is the central culprit, imo. It just provides a duty cycle that is so strong. (It's easy enough to test if you want to fly RZ1 with optics -- just never change your arc and see how different it is). I think the Interceptors you describe would be tried by anyone. That's just way too cheap and too durable of a platform for 3 Attack Dice.

Also of note: I don't use optics. Partially because I think that while it does look mathematically strong (though I think its use shrinks with heroic), but also because I think it emphasizes something the Awings are already good at -- consistent damage. I've been using those points for other things that help the Awings put burst damage out, like prockets, whichcompliment the rear arc and often force my opponents into bad situations because they do not want to take that five dice attack. This is something that also works better against those lists you mention struggling with since the Awings have higher I and optics isn't very often going to swing the damage to the point where you can take one off before it shoots.

8 hours ago, AlexW said:

My point was addressing the comment that this list "doesn't allow for a single mistake," which to me was, frankly, preposterous. There's a long way between that and "EZ mode," though.

Thanks for the reply, that makes things much clearer.

The way I see it, it really depends on the point of view and skill level of a player. An A-wing does not allow for a single mistake like bumping (no actions on 4hp) or moving onto a rock (50% to lose 1/4 of hp! and no action to guard the other 3hp) or remaining in too many arcs. Those are important for beginners and maybe intermediate players.

What you are talking about however is that the A-wing is very forgiving regarding your maneuver choice, and there I completely agree. You can go any way and choose basically any maneuver and you will be fine. That is indeed very easy.

But these are two very different things and I think we should be careful in calling it ez mode or even forgiving mistakes. It's not forgiving mistakes, it's forgiving choices or decisions. The difference is important because you can't give a new player 5 Awings and say "here, it's super easy and very forgiving, have fun". But it was possible to do that with Dengaroo or Paratanni. Those were ez mode, I could give them to my wife and she beat me to pulp with anything I put on the table. The Awings are not like this.

And the reason it bugs me so much: they have been out for 2,5 months. Three guys played them well in Phoenix and one more in Toronto, someone won a trial in the Netherlands, and some few smaller events had winning Awings (I know of 2). That is a handfull people playing it to the top. But now that they are on the radar they are suddenly ez mode. I checked listfortress and found 11 people playing 5 Awings 15times in 13 tournaments since December. That is still a very small number when compared to other lists.

I stand by what I said: they alone are clearly not broken because you don't see them alone in extended. There were lists with Poe or Vennie, sure. But not yet 5 Awings. And that is necessary for the ship to be so over the top good and efficient.

12 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

4x Omega Squadron Expert (Advanced Optics, Special Forces Gunner)

• The hitting power on the first pass is just going to be a lot better with 4x3 attacks than with 5x2 attacks. Heck, 3x3+Optics hits about as hard as 5x2+Optics, if you're opponent is rolling 2 or 3 green dice. Init 3 isn't too bad, either, since there's a growing amount of Init 2 stuff in the meta. I mean, 4x Generic X-Wings (whether T-65 or T-70) aren't an archetype lighting up the meta right now (neither is 5x Rebel A-Wings...), but having those rear arcs is tasty.

Don't overlook Fanatical/Fire Control System, too.

On the opening pass, locking rather than focusing is dangerous but less so for a 6 hit ship than a 4 hit one, even if it only has agility 2.

If you've got your lock set up, in subsequent rounds you've got potentially one focus to hit plus one reroll without touching your actions, and you can concentrate on evading or rolling as required, and can use the red bits of the dial without crippling your dice.

Much like the TIE/x1 squad, it's a squad which isn't devastating in engagement turn 1, but which claws it back when its opponent has to keep focusing every turn and/or pulling red moves to keep its guns pointed the right way, whilst the TIE/sf can evade/rotate and keep right on rolling with its now highly modified tail guns.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Don't overlook Fanatical/Fire Control System, too.

On the opening pass, locking rather than focusing is dangerous but less so for a 6 hit ship than a 4 hit one, even if it only has agility 2.

If you've got your lock set up, in subsequent rounds you've got potentially one focus to hit plus one reroll without touching your actions, and you can concentrate on evading or rolling as required, and can use the red bits of the dial without crippling your dice.

Much like the TIE/x1 squad, it's a squad which isn't devastating in engagement turn 1, but which claws it back when its opponent has to keep focusing every turn and/or pulling red moves to keep its guns pointed the right way, whilst the TIE/sf can evade/rotate and keep right on rolling with its now highly modified tail guns.

A lot of it is that I'm just kind of fascinated by Optics these days. It just makes things easy. Is it the right time to lock? Should I spend the lock on two blanks, or just reroll one die? Do you have Fanatical activated and want to evade? Fugeddabout all those questions, just focus. It's straightforward and reliable.

It also puts more heat on the approach. Advanced Optics do more up front, while FCS can pay dividends over time. On a Backdraft, flying away with FCS, Fanatical, and an Evade token is pretty solid. On Quickdraw, Fanatical keeps opponents honest after their shields are gone. But with a generic squad/swarm, my biggest advantage is numbers, and trying to leverage those numbers with faster damage makes sense to me.

*edit*

I also really want to put in more reps with Trick Shot. I have this feeling that since it's pretty good on A-Wings, it's probably also good on SFs. Resistance A-Wings seem like one of very few non-ordnance 2 red dice ship which aren't underperforming. TIE/sf doesn't have the same tools, but it's kind of a cousin in several ways, and I want to see if I can steal some of the strengths and tricks of A-Wings.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

...What you are talking about however is that the A-wing is very forgiving regarding your maneuver choice, and there I completely agree. You can go any way and choose basically any maneuver and you will be fine. That is indeed very easy.

But these are two very different things and I think we should be careful in calling it ez mode or even forgiving mistakes. It's not forgiving mistakes, it's forgiving choices or decisions. The difference is important because you can't give a new player 5 Awings and say "here, it's super easy and very forgiving, have fun"...

This is worth noting.

The strength of the list is the wide-open dials throughout most games/game-states, making it hard on your opponent to "trap" one, or "pin down" an A-wing. That said, the a-wing player should have a gameplan with a win condition in their head if they really want to make the most of the list. That part isn't always obvious.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

What you are talking about however is that the A-wing is very forgiving regarding your maneuver choice, and there I completely agree. You can go any way and choose basically any maneuver and you will be fine. That is indeed very easy.

But these are two very different things and I think we should be careful in calling it ez mode or even forgiving mistakes. It's not forgiving mistakes, it's forgiving choices or decisions.

That distinction is important, but part of my comparison is relative, coming from mostly running ships that are either more expensive p/health point (like Silencers) or ships that don't have shields (like interceptors).

So, by comparison, Awings with 4 health, 2 of which are in shields, and lower cost, are much more forgiving of actual mistakes, too. I'll agree that doesn't mean they are "Easy Mode" or necessarily appropriate for beginners (for a variety of reasons -- one of which is that there are five ships and a variety of abilities!), but we just have our own opinions of where on that continuum the RZ2 falls.

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

This is worth noting.

The strength of the list is the wide-open dials throughout most games/game-states, making it hard on your opponent to "trap" one, or "pin down" an A-wing. That said, the a-wing player should have a gameplan with a win condition in their head if they really want to make the most of the list. That part isn't always obvious.

Ha, funny that I was going to go into this and one of the reasons I think I've been finding the Awing play not as interesting as I thought it would be. A lot of my games entail figuring out which ship I need to kill to make it tough for my opponent to mount a comeback while I cycle A-Wings in and out and get shots from rear arcs while doing so.

4 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Ha, funny that I was going to go into this and one of the reasons I think I've been finding the Awing play not as interesting as I thought it would be. A lot of my games entail figuring out which ship I need to kill to make it tough for my opponent to mount a comeback while I cycle A-Wings in and out and get shots from rear arcs while doing so.

That sounds right.

27 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

This is worth noting.

The strength of the list is the wide-open dials throughout most games/game-states, making it hard on your opponent to "trap" one, or "pin down" an A-wing. That said, the a-wing player should have a gameplan with a win condition in their head if they really want to make the most of the list. That part isn't always obvious.

I've played against them a good amount in the Poe+AAA variety. There a definitely a strong element of "I don't know where you're going" combined with "you can't hurt me too bad wherever you go". It ends up being easy to keep the A's alive, but also easy to do no damage. It definitely needs more coordination than, say, a triple ace list.

Two out of two Vaders agree. What are you guys finding as your normal win conditions? Is it pretty narrow MOV as you chip away at things while keeping a lot of your own squad alive at 1 or 2 health? Or are you finding that there's a lot more 200 -XX(x?) games?

1 minute ago, viedit said:

Two out of two Vaders agree. What are you guys finding as your normal win conditions? Is it pretty narrow MOV as you chip away at things while keeping a lot of your own squad alive at 1 or 2 health? Or are you finding that there's a lot more 200 -XX(x?) games?

It's usully a tight game on points, and most games go to time.

That's not to say every game feels close in terms of board position, but many also do, too.

Yeah I think in general 5 ship lists tend to run the math gauntlet. At that 20 minute left mark you are starting to add up points in your head and figuring out what your are going to do to conserve what you have left.

1 minute ago, viedit said:

Yeah I think in general 5 ship lists tend to run the math gauntlet. At that 20 minute left mark you are starting to add up points in your head and figuring out what your are going to do to conserve what you have left.

Basically.

The good news is, imo, even when I'm "winning" by points, I don't believe the a-wings can play purely defensive/run away all game. This is usually because of compounding factors:

1. The opponent usually still has enough ships on the board you cannot run away the whole game without being shot at least SOME
2. Since A-Wings have 4 hp, those few shots may randomly half-points a ship and get you down to half very close to time

So, while you may now play more defensively, you still sort of want to have some a-wings "threaten" to turn in when they try and score those half-points. I like that that incentive is still there (hopefully I'm not wrong on that assessment and the "right" answer is actually just run away forever).

15 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Basically.

The good news is, imo, even when I'm "winning" by points, I don't believe the a-wings can play purely defensive/run away all game. This is usually because of compounding factors:

1. The opponent usually still has enough ships on the board you cannot run away the whole game without being shot at least SOME
2. Since A-Wings have 4 hp, those few shots may randomly half-points a ship and get you down to half very close to time

So, while you may now play more defensively, you still sort of want to have some a-wings "threaten" to turn in when they try and score those half-points. I like that that incentive is still there (hopefully I'm not wrong on that assessment and the "right" answer is actually just run away forever).

I think the big difference with the rear arc and the regular turret is that like Firesprays, when you hit the board edge you have to turn away and expose flanks, which makes pure disengagement a little problematic if the opponent is maneuverable enough. Add in the fact that with 5 4hp ships you have disengage with them all to disengage effectively, and sometimes that's just impossible. Disengaging with 4 is as good as disengaging with none, or worse, when points are close.

But maybe I'm wrong and there's a good way to run forever. I expect running forever might work against certain squads more than others.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

I think the big difference with the rear arc and the regular turret is that like Firesprays, when you hit the board edge you have to turn away and expose flanks, which makes pure disengagement a little problematic if the opponent is maneuverable enough. Add in the fact that with 5 4hp ships you have disengage with them all to disengage effectively, and sometimes that's just impossible. Disengaging with 4 is as good as disengaging with none, or worse, when points are close.

I think that's right.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

But maybe I'm wrong and there's a good way to run forever. I expect running forever might work against certain squads more than others.

I hope not, as a generally strategy.

Certainly it's true at least sometimes, but that may be simply because you really have "won" earlier in the game by reducing them to 1 ship or something. I'm not mad at that prospect.

11 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Basically.

The good news is, imo, even when I'm "winning" by points, I don't believe the a-wings can play purely defensive/run away all game. This is usually because of compounding factors:

1. The opponent usually still has enough ships on the board you cannot run away the whole game without being shot at least SOME
2. Since A-Wings have 4 hp, those few shots may randomly half-points a ship and get you down to half very close to time

So, while you may now play more defensively, you still sort of want to have some a-wings "threaten" to turn in when they try and score those half-points. I like that that incentive is still there (hopefully I'm not wrong on that assessment and the "right" answer is actually just run away forever).

As running the 5As for 13 games over KC4 weekend, I can say that most of the time I still felt the need to at minimum pressure my opponent with some amount of aggression. You shouldn't let the opponent freely move around to try and damage your Awings. The rear arc may help keep pressure "while running," but the Awings go so fast that you'll starting making your way toward an obstacle or most of the time, board edge that requires you to turn and expose the side of the AWing. There's still a need to coordinate the timing of the AWings left towards the end of the game to come together at the same time for attacks, otherwise you risk them getting picked off one at a time by the last opposing ace.

39 minutes ago, viedit said:

Two out of two Vaders agree. What are you guys finding as your normal win conditions? Is it pretty narrow MOV as you chip away at things while keeping a lot of your own squad alive at 1 or 2 health? Or are you finding that there's a lot more 200 -XX(x?) games?

If found that MOV is a real problem for 5 Awings and 200-x games are not the norm.

30 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

So, while you may now play more defensively, you still sort of want to have some a-wings "threaten" to turn in when they try and score those half-points. I like that that incentive is still there (hopefully I'm not wrong on that assessment and the "right" answer is actually just run away forever).

This.

It makes the list very fun to me when the correct choice is not to run away but to keep engaging. Because I get annoyed when I have to decide between what is fun and what is correct. I think this is less of a problem with 5 As.

23 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think the big difference with the rear arc and the regular turret is that like Firesprays, when you hit the board edge you have to turn away and expose flanks, which makes pure disengagement a little problematic if the opponent is maneuverable enough. Add in the fact that with 5 4hp ships you have disengage with them all to disengage effectively, and sometimes that's just impossible. Disengaging with 4 is as good as disengaging with none, or worse, when points are close.

That underlined part is so true. And it's even more true for stuff like SF's that don't have access to a white 1 turn and then boost to double in on someone. I learned very quickly with my 5 sf list that an SF on the board edge is a dead SF. They need to be working within the inner 2/3 of the mat and basically doing figure 8's between obstacle lanes.

9 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

An A-wing does not allow for a single mistake like bumping (no actions on 4hp) or moving onto a rock (50% to lose 1/4 of hp! and no action to guard the other 3hp) or remaining in too many arcs. Those are important for beginners and maybe intermediate players.

This is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote they do not allow for a single mistake.

18 minutes ago, rhetor said:

This is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote they do not allow for a single mistake.

All jokes aside, if you are up 3 ships to 1 in the endgame, there begins to be some room for error. As for @GreenDragoon's point of no actions on 4 hp, he is right, but there is a bonus side to that. Sometimes you want to bump for a certain position or [most likely] to deny the enemy some shots by said bumping (although without pre-maneuver shenanigans and the strong numbers of A-wings, they typically don't find themselves in that spot). It's also good advice to warn new players of bombs when they try to fly these little buggers. It was a feelsbadman moment when I saw a Resistance Bomber's trajectory seismic dealt 3 damage before he began to take shots!

2 hours ago, viedit said:

That underlined part is so true. And it's even more true for stuff like SF's that don't have access to a white 1 turn and then boost to double in on someone. I learned very quickly with my 5 sf list that an SF on the board edge is a dead SF. They need to be working within the inner 2/3 of the mat and basically doing figure 8's between obstacle lanes.

Cheap Problem Solver

And the expensive one that should only be considered for a Thiccdraw in an aces list:

Seriously: these really help the SF assert a larger region of board comfort. Unfortunately, they are too pricey for most generic SF lists.

Yeah I was running a small swarm of cheap generics (38 points for a gunnerless fanatic Expert and Backdraft). They don't want to be on a board edge. And really don't want more points pumped into them.

59 minutes ago, rhetor said:

This is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote they do not allow for a single mistake.

I get what you had in mind, I just think it's too narrow and those situations most certainly do not mean a loss in my experience. I know because I've even made these mistakes against good players. Bumping or clipping a rock a single on a ship with shields, three agility that costs 30-40 points, and in a list with ton of redundancy (so I lost one -- I've got four more!) is not game defining in my opinion. It can be the difference of 20 points that your opponent might not otherwise have gotten, and that can certainly mean the difference between winning and losing, but that's true of any list. A single mistake is just not an auto-lose situation like it is if you bump with Soontir or Vader. This list, imo, just isn't a list that flies on the edge of the knife's point, even if the ships involved have that lore behind them and maybe should.

I think my reaction to testing 5 As and Poe + 3 As was heavily impacted by all the play time I have with 5 Striker Wampa and the named Strikes in general.

The A-Wings are super liberating in comparison because 2 of them basically cant be init killed ( Lulo and Talli, similar to Duchess/Countdown ) and all of them spend so much time attacking per game. I set up a net and that net immediately exists next turn without having slooped or angled for a bank 1 hard turn. Its just easier.

Some thought goes into the net setup with 5 strike wampa, though ill be the first to admit alot of times im just jousting and making the rest up later. Where the As put equal amounts of thought into the initial engage they just seem to manufacture nets more regularly after that and keep a focus involved turn to turn to turn ( some of those are still better nets than others though ).

Resistance A-Wings are fun because small base mobile ships are fun same as the strikers and Turrets make the game easier which translates to less stress and more pew pew pew.

There challenges and skill to be found with every list in hyperspace including 5 As.

I just hope everyone can appreciate and doesnt lose sight of how potentially dangerous alt arcs and boost are as a combination in 2.0. Its the holy grail of non-luke gunner turret options.

Its something FFG needs to watch very closely and price aggressively forever just like supernatural, ailerons, and advanced sensors or coordinate. YT1300s and Firesprays included.

1 hour ago, rhetor said:

[An A-wing does not allow for a single mistake like bumping (no actions on 4hp) or moving onto a rock (50% to lose 1/4 of hp! and no action to guard the other 3hp) or remaining in too many arcs. Those are important for beginners and maybe intermediate players.]

This is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote they do not allow for a single mistake.

Yep. Compared to trip t70, I am much more likely to overlap on the open, and much more likely to loose if I do, because (a) 5 ships with repo require better maneuver execution and planning than aces or non-repo swarms to not overlap (b) a much higher percentage of their value lies in actions and (c) 1 overlap often results in a pile-up.

Maybe not much of an issue for a top pilot, but still the floor is higher than with the X/Y lists.