11 hours ago, AlexW said:

In my experience with 5 As, they allow for plenty of mistakes. I mean that sincerely in the sense that you can pretty much dial up any maneuver that relieves stress and then have a good chance of getting a shot with an educated guess about arc after focusing. They’re very sturdy for their cost, can easily run away (and still shoot while doing so!), and are not very expensive even if you lose one.

I love flying interceptor type ships but I’m starting to get bored flying my 5As as they’re not the same thing at all.

5 hours ago, hawk32 said:

The most expensive is 38 base. The cheapest is 32... 9pts more than a tie/ln but you get a hull bumped to a shield, an extra shield, boost and tl as actions, elite and tech slot, built in linked reposition, a turret, and the best dial in the game. If you can't spam them and make it work then I don't know what to tell you.

After some pint-less investigations, Resistance A's look like the best chassis/dial in the game for the price.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I expect it's as much because of the linked action as it is the boost. A-wings can reposition and Focus, SFs cannot.

Agreed... please, no one don't look at SFs or Rebel A's as any kind of balance ship, boy they simply are not; the math doesn't add up at all.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Yea that to for sure. Though SFs can eventually Fanatical and do have access to FCS with good range control or during the 2nd engagement. These A-Wings just do more for less.

This. You can get higher Initiative into the squad as well; SFs cannot approach in so many ways, especially double linked actions and price.

....I might be sold that the Resistance is the new Imperial faction. Poe is the best new Soontir Ace and these A-Wings are simply the mathematical best "they're coming in too fast" TIE swarm in the game. I might have to dive in and forget 2.0 Imps (seem to be the powerful Galactic Empire in name only). Well played FFG, well played.

Awings basically tell Fangs they don't get to play any more. SF/s do as well. Anything that can hop over them and deny faceoff to trigger just murders them. I went 3-0 at Krayt Cup with 5 gunnerless SF's (Backdraft + 4 experts w/ all had fanatical) vs Scum lists with 1 more Fangs. The high init resistance A's also give empire lists fits since they can just zoom past and continue to keep shots. Even a 2 dice attack with a focus/advanced optics has a hope vs 3agi if you aren't worried about getting shot at in return.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

My post was mostly because I still have a bias against turrets with reposition (boost) and after testing various Resistance lists recently I believe these A-Wings are 6-8 pts undercosted or most everything else in their bracket is 6-8 pts overcosted in comparison. They aren’t necessarily “ridiculously” easy to use as they do take damage and they dont particularly like to joust, at minimum you have to know when and where to bug out, and when to commit to plinking damage. You still have to choose that and set those boxes up. Its really just that not jousting bit I find easier and less planned than other similarly priced ships.

Im glad there are good A-Wings now, they are fun. Its just a tiny bit sad that they required Rear Arc boost to be relevant. That combination specifically seems underpriced. SFs are very similar but something about the Barrel Roll action with a rear arc instead of Boost makes it feel different (could just be my preference for FO there). Maybe thats the reality though for 4 hp ships in a game with init kills. Its possible low init low hp ships cant hope to sustain damage without turrets + reposition, white k turns, temporary high init, skip damage mechanics like Iden, or something else besides #s.

I get that, I really do because I wish I could play RZ1s. But what prevents me is not the missing rear arc but the lack of optics. The combination of focus+boost+optics is the magic as far as I'm concerned. The rear arc "only" improves that massively, true, but would you play RZ2s without optics? I personally do not understand those who do (with the exception of Lulo). RZ1s with predator is as good, but only in the bullseye, so... The SFs are missing boost but have optics. That would place them above RZ1s but below RZ2s for me. And if RZ2s are underpriced, then so are SFs with option of fanatical, 2 additional hp, and 180° arc instead of rotating 90°! (e: the 3 agility are also a big deal though)

The second, more important reason is that RZ1s are extended, where RZ2s also have a hard time.

That is why I don't agree with saying that A-wings are ez mode (otherwise: where are they in extended?!) and the rear arc is annoying/amazing but not the key component. Free boost + optics is. E: or rather all together of course. But optics play a huge part that is severly underestimated. If interceptors had 2h2s at i3 and 40pt, I'd give that a try too. Or RZ1s with optics.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

That is why I don't agree with saying that A-wings are ez mode (otherwise: where are they in extended?!) and the rear arc is annoying/amazing but not the key component. Free boost + optics is.

Kinda agree, but when you take the RZ2s chassis, action bar, upgrade slots, Initiative, dial and cost, they just go to the top of the mathematical pile. It would be interesting to have the weighted formula (it's in my mind, but I'm not able to chalk it out) to really see if I'm correct, maybe @Biophysical can get something scribbled down.

The only thing holding me back trying them is the mathematical realities on this side of the galaxy as these are pricey little buggers, haha.

39 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

would you play RZ2s without optics

I have primarily been testing Poe and 3 As. With variations on that Optics is super helpful but not always as necessary as a ludicrous bid. I tend to take just an EPT on Lulo and optics on the other As if room is available.

Id ask a different question...would you play RZ2s without Poe?

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Id ask a different question...would you play RZ2s without Poe?

He does, all the time. That link he posted is his battle reports with only 5 A-Wings. Poe doesn’t really figure in to the evaluation of the A-Wing chassis mathematically.

10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I have primarily been testing Poe and 3 As. With variations on that Optics is super helpful but not always as necessary as a ludicrous bid. I tend to take just an EPT on Lulo and optics on the other As if room is available.

Id ask a different question...would you play RZ2s without Poe? 

I know you didn't but hawk32 specifically said: "If you can't spam them and make it work then I don't know what to tell you." That was what I had in mind here, so my posts should be looked at from that perspective. The Poe+3A lists are a bit different.

E.g. Tallie in such a list is not exactly an offensive beast. Lulo is just good because he's Lulo and not really representative for Awings in general. The third should IMO have optics.

48 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Kinda agree, but when you take the RZ2s chassis, action bar, upgrade slots, Initiative, dial and cost, they just go to the top of the mathematical pile. It would be interesting to have the weighted formula (it's in my mind, but I'm not able to chalk it out) to really see if I'm correct, maybe @Biophysical can get something scribbled down.

I don't really do efficiency calculations. Or was there something else you had in mind?

24 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Id ask a different question...would you play RZ2s without Poe?

That's what's held me back from getting a couple more RZ2s. At the end of 1.0, I asked myself if Poe was better than 2 rookies vs. the 5 rookie squad and found that (for me), he was. I've asked myself the same question in 2.0 in relation to the RZ2 squad(s), and still believe Poe is better than two of them. Event showings are starting to pile up, though, which is making the little buggers en masse harder to ignore.

13 hours ago, AlexW said:

Really it’s that FOs are costed correctly and Resistance As are undercosted by several points.

Small base, 2-dice primary turret seems hard to cost.

Generic Hawks start at the same price but are about 1000% worse.

14 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I don't really do efficiency calculations. Or was there something else you had in mind?

Um, maybe not calculations, that might be beyond us all... what was I thinking?

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

...still believe Poe is better than two of them. Event showings are starting to pile up, though, which is making the little buggers en masse harder to ignore.

Wasn't there something in 1.0 analysis that was called "duty cycle" or something? I'm thinking Dee on Mynocks? Anyway, if I recall correctly, it had to do with amount of time a ship can attack a target during it's time during a game. It seems with stupid turrets pretty much out of the game (hello there slowly price reducing Luke Gunner), then arced ships really have to worry about their ability to 'stay on target'. These As seem to have that with the chassis (all other details) and price to be the best at this?

5 a's is pretty strong. They went to top 4 of the "Top 50" invite at Krayt Cup, and my team captain went 5-0 with them over the course of Krayt Cup. Obviously that's a skewed stat since you can pair your matchups and get them against more favorable lists. But still, they are a very solid tool box of durability, maneuverability, consistent damage output, and constant time on target all at very generous pilot initiatives.

There's a couple different variants in resistance that are starting to shake out. Will be interesting to see how trials progress and which ones end up being the most used.

Relative to this topic you have AAAAA.

Then there is the XAAA (Poe + 3 a's)

Then XXAA (Nien/Something + Lulo and Tallie)

Then XXXA (Snap/Jess/Bastian/Lulo (or Tallie)

Each variant has it's own feel and goal. Also has it's own type of lists it doesn't match up to well.

Poe + 3A's "feels" like it's the best toolbox with the two i5's providing safe and consistent fire, a super annoying ps1 blocker, and a legitimate closer in Poe. But all of the others are solid builds in the right hands and can be terror to deal with. I've personally been running XXXA to great success. T70's are freaking tanks.

18 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Rear Arc with boost is mechanically the best combination in the game besides maybe i6 pre-movement repositions.

My hypothesis:

RZ2s are costed for Resistance context, not RZ1 context.

32 already feels like too expensive for an I1 blocker when at least 3 other factions can put one on the table with the same HP and attack for 23 points.

Peripherally, the RZ1 is the better Procket carrier overall, as even a 2 point difference makes loading up ordinance a more viable option for generic Rebel RZ1s. That alone, in my opinion, gives the Rebel versions a nice tactical identity over the rz2.

2 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

32 already feels like too expensive for an I1 blocker when at least 3 other factions can put one on the table with the same HP and attack for 23 points.

Not in hyperspace you aren't getting anything that efficient. That 32 points gets you an EPT slot, a butt arc, an ability to take a focus and reposition, a ridiculously good dial, and a butt arc you can still shoot from after the initial block that lets you shoot as you regroup. And compared to a tie fighter that awing has two shields which is invaluable with proton bombs and torps out there.

1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

My hypothesis:

RZ2s are costed for Resistance context, not RZ1 context.

32 already feels like too expensive for an I1 blocker when at least 3 other factions can put one on the table with the same HP and attack for 24 points.

Peripherally, the RZ1 is the better Procket carrier overall, as even a 2 point difference makes loading up ordinance a more viable option for generic Rebel RZ1s. That alone, in my opinion, gives the Rebel versions a nice tactical identity over the rz2. 

I'm not sure any ship in the game right now that can be had for 32-35 points or fewer feels as good as the RZ-2? Or at least, none that are meant to shoot things. (As opposed to ships that are meant to coordinate things.)

That's not the case for the T-70/Starfortress/Resistance Falcon, though, I don't think it's a faction thing. Just an undercosted ship.

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

I'm not sure any ship in the game right now that can be had for 32-35 points or fewer feels as good as the RZ-2? Or at least, none that are meant to shoot things. (As opposed to ships that are meant to coordinate things.)

That's not the case for the T-70/Starfortress/Resistance Falcon, though, I don't think it's a faction thing. Just an undercosted ship.

Well...where is Resistance, from a competitive standpoint, without it? I'll bet "not in the cut" is the answer.

17 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Well...where is Resistance, from a competitive standpoint, without it? I'll bet "not in the cut" is the answer.

probably

It's all kinda moot since they're stuck as-is until July, but RZ-2's getting a bit pricier while their other options come down sounds like a good trade. New ship by/around then, too.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

probably

It's all kinda moot since they're stuck as-is until July, but RZ-2's getting a bit pricier while their other options come down sounds like a good trade. New ship by/around then, too.

Right. But right now, the cost of the RZ2 might be what makes Resistance lists competitively viable. If that's the case, I'm not sure what value there is in saying something is undercosted in relation to other ships in other factions.

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Um, maybe not calculations, that might be beyond us all... what was I thinking?

Wasn't there something in 1.0 analysis that was called "duty cycle" or something? I'm thinking Dee on Mynocks? Anyway, if I recall correctly, it had to do with amount of time a ship can attack a target during it's time during a game. It seems with stupid turrets pretty much out of the game (hello there slowly price reducing Luke Gunner), then arced ships really have to worry about their ability to 'stay on target'. These As seem to have that with the chassis (all other details) and price to be the best at this?

"Fire duty cycle" is a term Dee uses, which seems like a complicated way of saying "time on target". They mean the same thing, as far as I can tell.

39 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Right. But right now, the cost of the RZ2 might be what makes Resistance lists competitively viable. If that's the case, I'm not sure what value there is in saying something is undercosted in relation to other ships in other factions.

I honestly don't think the A-wings are way underpriced except for maybe Lulo. Maybe a little underpriced, but nothing big. I'd say the "massively underpriced" feeling comes from the fact that other stuff in their point/capability bracket is way worse. That's more about those other ships than it is the RZ2s.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I honestly don't think the A-wings are way underpriced except for maybe Lulo

Under/overpriced is such a loaded word nowadays. Underpriced w.r.t. the average ship, or the average meta ship?

A blue RZ2 appears to be in the mid/lower band of competitive pricing for Hyperspace, and L'ulo is a bit better (e.g. better value / more toward underpriced)

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I honestly don't think the A-wings are way underpriced except for maybe Lulo. Maybe a little underpriced, but nothing big. I'd say the "massively underpriced" feeling comes from the fact that other stuff in their point/capability bracket is way worse. That's more about those other ships than it is the RZ2s.

The named ones not called lulo could maybe go up 1-2 points, lulo 3-4, but honestly FFG could probably just leave the RZ-2s alone and use them as a baseline for pricing other things.

I'm still not positive that resistance a-wings are vastly undercosted per se, and rather it's more that many other things are overcosted.

I'm not sure 5X is too good, for instance, but clearly t65s are being kept above the 41 pt line.

I still suspect that many TIEs are paying the "howl and Iden" tax, and would like to see them go down with howl and iden going up (so the same tie swarm basically fits, but maybe people ACTUALLY take an academy).

Stuff like that.

I dont know if i like the new balancing stuff.

Just thought about buying 3 more AWings so i have 5, but what if it gets the nerf hammer and the list isnt playable anymore?

In reference to the rear-turret "cousin" of the RZ-2: the TIE/sf.

I think I'm with a bunch of folks in thinking that 5x SF probably isn't as good as 5x RZ-2. But I think the SF might have potential in the First Order equivalent of 3A/Poe (or at least those versions which run a bunch of generics...). Or maybe even 4x SF/Gunner.

• 4x Omega Squadron Expert (Advanced Optics, Special Forces Gunner)
  • The hitting power on the first pass is just going to be a lot better with 4x3 attacks than with 5x2 attacks. Heck, 3x3+Optics hits about as hard as 5x2+Optics, if you're opponent is rolling 2 or 3 green dice. Init 3 isn't too bad, either, since there's a growing amount of Init 2 stuff in the meta. I mean, 4x Generic X-Wings (whether T-65 or T-70) aren't an archetype lighting up the meta right now (neither is 5x Rebel A-Wings...), but having those rear arcs is tasty.
• 3x Zeta (Advanced Optics) + [???]
  • + Kylo. You can only get like Hate/Optics Kylo. But it'll still be a block of TIEs with decent health, reliable dice, and two arcs, with a pretty good ace. Init 5 might be on the low side, but having the force is really nice.
• 3x Omega (Trick Shot(?) and Optics) + [???]
  • + Tavson. Quite a heavy hitter, but maybe the endgame isn't there.
  • + Quickdraw. You can really load up on stuff like Advanced Sensors and Afterburners to avoid arcs, if that's your style.
  • + Blackout (Trick Shot and Pattern Analyzer, for example). The TIEs will be better than in a Kylo version, and the former Test Pilot Blackout can hit pretty hard himself.