38 minutes ago, Derrault said:

No, no, and no.

In point of fact it was demonstrated that under perfect conditions (to wit: zero incoming damage, an obviously absurd situation), it would require every single corps attacking the T-47 to ‘maybe’ kill it. (And that’s devoting 474 points worth of resources to merely try and kill 175/195 points worth!)

The 47s value, which apparently needs repeating, is that it’s far more resilient to attrition than troopers. Every wound ag  ainst a trooper removes a die for future rounds, and those wounds happen far more easily (50% of damage against most imps, 66% against most rebs; and they all suffer that damage on 25% of white, 50% of black, and 75% of red non surge outcomes; conversely thanks to armor, the 47 is only looking 66% of 12.5% of outcomes (8.3% chance per die), and even with that extremely low rate of damage (from non-Impact sources...aka almost all sources) it doesn’t impact (aha) the damage output of the 47 until the equivalent of at least 10 wounds (imp) or 14 wounds (reb) are suffered.

Lastly, the lack of presence of a particular unit says nothing at all about the value of the unit, it only says something about the preferences of the players in that tournament.

Sure on paper the 47 looks awesome but have you used it? It is most definitely a glass cannon and yes it does pack a lot of punch in that attack but it falls way too easily! Even though it can take out a lot of units around it cant take out enough to make it survive. Hopefully the new pilot upgrades will help it a lot!! If you've used it and gotten it to work please tell me how because I am still trying to find out what to do with the $25 dollar model that has more often become a piece of terrain than a real unit in recent games...

It's not really good on paper either, it is one of the worst units in the game for kills versus cost.

One more time for those folks at home.

Stormtroopers with DLT costing 68 points shooting a unit of Stormtroopers will kill 1.62 models, 42 points per kill efficiency.

A T47 naked costing 175 points shooting the Stormtroopers will kill 1.87 models, 93 points per kill efficiency.

So 2 units of stormies who can also score objectives for 136 points will kill double a T47.

I can go on if needed

20 minutes ago, bllaw said:

Sure on paper the 47 looks awesome but have you used it? It is most definitely a glass cannon and yes it does pack a lot of punch in that attack but it falls way too easily! Even though it can take out a lot of units around it cant take out enough to make it survive. Hopefully the new pilot upgrades will help it a lot!! If you've used it and gotten it to work please tell me how because I am still trying to find out what to do with the $25 dollar model that has more often become a piece of terrain than a real unit in recent games...

Glass Cannon is the opposite of my meaning. The 47 is more durable than troopers of equivalent value. It does less initial damage, but it also lives longer. That equates to more total damage over the course of the game. That and the maneuverability allow it to set up better attacks (aka, negate cover via positioning) than a slower trooper unit (which is also reliant on barricades to not get shredded).

Okay, DTZ, not to say you math is wrong, but I don't think that comparison is like, at all helpful. The army who can take Airspeeders also can't take DLTs, that's not like an apples to apples math.

Ok let's use apples.

The T47 for 175 pulling 1.87 kills, with 93 points per kill

A AtRt with rotary cost 85 points and kills 1.56 storms 54 points per kill.

2 AtRt for 170 will kill 3.12 storms.

I can do math for sooo many scenarios and nearly all the T47 sucks

The math for apppes

T47

3R 3B = 3x6/8 + 3x4/8 = 3.75 hits

Storms have red defence = 3.75x3/6 = 1.875 kills.

Efficiency = cost/kills = 175/1.875 = 93.3

AtRt with rotary

5Bsurge = 5x5/8 × 3/6 = 1.5625 kills

85/1.5625 = 54.4

For a unit less than half the cost and not much squishier when you bring 2.

Now the T47 has some advantages as it can move aim and shoot so it's effeciny can be higher, but no to the point where it can out perform most other units in equivalent points baring in the impact 3 spot.

In all these threads Derrault has not provided any actual reason that can be seen black and white to why the T47 isn't garbage.

I mean, you're only speaking in terms of kill efficiency though. Those AT-RTs only have Armor and prayer to protect them so I think they are squishier, the Speeder has Armor, cover, surge conversion, immunity to blast and melee. If you go up to Cover 2, I think the only things that really address all of that is Commanders/Operatives, who are similarly costly (and somebody will have to figure out the strategic value of like, Veers blowing his Maximum Firepower load to not do enough damage to kill the T-47 anyway). Then there's also mobility. It's like a multi-dimensional game, you don't want to narrow in on one parameter.

I don't think the T-47 is necessarily the best at anything, but it has somewhat decent parameters to be well rounded in lots of things. Depending on what you want to do with your list, you may actually want more flexibility. Like, I think the X-34 will be a better tankhunter because it's cheaper and the RPS upgrade is omni-directional, but boy howdy you get placed at the wrong range their anti-infantry potential can really suck- plus they are still vulnerable to blast if you park too close to certain enemy units.

2 AtRt have 12 health with 6+ saves and easier ability to get battlefield cover

1 T47 has 7 health with 5+ saves and permanent cover 1.

UnitOmega which one do you think is harder to kill?

45 minutes ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

2 AtRt have 12 health with 6+ saves and easier ability to get battlefield cover

1 T47 has 7 health with 5+ saves and permanent cover 1.

UnitOmega which one do you think is harder to kill?

the t47 is still harder to kill as it also has immune blast and melee and it requires crits or two+ hits to damage it and with the new pilot coming out it will be 3 hits to convert the the last one to a crit. while the atrt can't get a upgrade like that. yes its more costly but overall the t47 is still a bigger threat compare to at-rt also t47 has impact 3 so its good anti vehicle too.

Still the T-47.

Easier battlefield cover isn't really a plus, they can also be caught out of cover - you can't do that to a T-47. Super unlikely, but say your AT-STs are caught out of cover against the hypothetical 6 DLT squads. That's a dead AT-RT a turn from impact conversion a decent chunk of the time. Maybe two if they get natural crits. But just with the Impact 1 conversion you can't get the T-47 in one, you'd have to roll natural crits. If you pay for the Cover 2, then the DLT squad has to roll naturals period. And they have twice the likelyhood to roll a block than the AT-RTs do. Given their mobility and speed, it's likely to be easier to move out of the way on a following turn too, and unlike x2 AT-RT, haven't lost part of their attacking efficiency by turn 2.

This is like, literally Derrault's argument. In an actual vacuum the T-47 can soak up a few hits and if your opponent is wasting 6 activations and +400 points worth of stuff to blow up your ~200 points of 1 activation you're probably doing okay with the other 3/4 of your list. I think prior trepidation with the T-47 has to do with the fact that it still does have slightly less offensive potential than a couple AT-RTs and when you actually put units on the board, two entirely seperate activations are probably more flexible and because they kill a bit better you can get more done because the T-47 could still go out in a blaze of glory. As the game composition shifts a little, with the new pilot for Cover 2 I think you'll be able to extend the longevity a bit more, the DLT menace is basically neutralized, your primary threat is now Sharpshooter/Impact, Impact 3+ with a decent dice pool (AT-STs with the Hammer pilot come to mind), or a slight increased risk in Surge>Crit units because they have double the crit radius. Even so, you still have 7 health to fall back on.

It's primary competition is probably not AT-RTs, but the X-34 occupying the same slot and being like 50 points cheaper. With omni-directional rockets it's got a lot easier time to slot into the weak-spot of an AT-ST or TX-225 to also get Impact 3 and a higher range, but it's dice pool isn't as consistent, including against infantry, so this goes back to my earlier point, I think the T-47 is slightly more rounded. The X-34 is not immune to Blast and the limited armor number means there's a better chance of canceling out it's cover defense and even overwhelming armor without Impact than the T-47. It's on the player to decide if they want slightly easier swingy damage and less longevity over more longevity and slightly less efficient but still fairly good dice.

A lot of this still depends on the metagame though. Veers/Boba's pretty popular for instance, T-47 and X-34 don't necessarily add a lot to fight that and [Veers/Boba] do have the tools to take on those units. Even if the T-47 has value, it might not be in a good place to utilize right away.

Is this for real? Cover 1 or 2 when an entire unit of stormies shoots at you? It does not save your metal crap one bit.

4 Stormies+DLT+Aim = 4 white dice+2 red dice = 1 hit from white dice, 1.5 hits from red dice, 0.5 crits from white dice and 0.125crits from red dice in the first throw.

Then you throw again and get 0.625 hits from white dice and 0.3125 crits from white dice. Add up 0.046875 crits from red dice and 0.28125hits.

That is a total of 3.40625 hits and 0.984375 crits from a 68 points corps unit. The cover does not matter at all. Even if the stormies cannot aim, cover 1 does not matter and cover 2 does not matter much. In the case we are working with, that means 2 crits / unit of stormies shooting at it. So yes, the T47 is not awesome at all. For the points it cost you can have 2,57 units of stormies shooting it down hard. And that is not counting that T47 is preventing you from taking more activations.

What about the T47 shooting back? Well, you have 3 black dice and 3 red dice. With an aim token that means:

0.375 crits from red and 0.375 crits from black and 1.125 hits from black and 1.875 from red. Total in the first roll: 3 hits+0.75 crits.

Second roll: 0.09375 crits and 0.46875 hits from red dice and 0.15625 crits and 0.46875 hits from black dice. Total in the second roll: 0.9375 hits and 0.25 crits.

Total roll: 1 crit and 4 hits. After cover and saves you have 1.5 dead stormtroopers.

So no. The T47 is not worth it. Yes, it is faster but it is worse to gain victory points. And due to its compulsory move the enemy can move towards it and see it pass through them with no possibility of retaliation.

Is it unplayable? No. Is it competitive? Again, no.

Let us test out the toughness of the T47 compared to AtRts with actual numbers for UnitOmega and Derrault.

Test 1 Stormtroopers with DLT

Will average 1 damage versus T47, average 5 turns to cripple and 7 to destroy

Will average 1.4 damage versus AtRt, average 2.8 turns to cripple and 4.3 to destroy

Therefor 2xAtRt average 8.6 turns to destroy which is > T47 and arguably less loss in effectiveness as 1 AtRt is better than a crippled T47 when they both take damage.

Test 2 AtSt with 88 Blaster

Will average 2.3 damage versus T47, average 2.1 turns to cripple and 3 to destroy

Will average 3.5 damage versus AtRt, average 1.1 turns to cripple and 1.7 to destroy

Therefor 2xAtRt average 3.4 turns to destroy both

As expected the T47 is easier to destroy than 2 AtRt who are cheaper and also more killy.

Funny enough it shows how bad the AtSt is at killing things as well when you consider the amount of DLT storms you can get for its price.

I don't know why, but I am really bothered by all of those calculations, true as they may be. It really takes the fun out of game for me and just reduces it to a game of math. But than, I never was a competitive player.

Oh yes for sure math reduces a fun game to a calculation and shouldn't be looked as the be end all at all.

It serves it purposes though, most people's gut feel is the T47 is below average, the maths hard (like really dam hard) backs this up. It's a shame that guys like the above 2 come out with such classics as 'still the T47' and basically make stuff up.

2 minutes ago, Vode said:

I don't know why, but I am really bothered by all of those calculations, true as they may be. It really takes the fun out of game for me and just reduces it to a game of math. But than, I never was a competitive player.

Knowing the probability of one roll does not reduce the game to a game of math. Having an average math knowledge and a good grasp of the tactic notions is plain better than having a great math knowledge and an average grasp of the tactic notions.

BUT. If in a forum someone implies that "something" is better than "something" you have to approach it with a neutral and realistic point of view therefore, maths.

@Derrault

I'm not going to get back into a math discussion with you again on the same topic as we've both said our pieces to one another plenty of times. What I would like from you is to answer as to how you would use the 47 in such a way that it is the most effective unit, or selection of units, for the job.

We call it "Math-Wing" when people do this is X-Wing. What's the Legion term? Math Legion? Math-ion? Ma-Legio? Numbers Legion? Legion-ology?

T-47 has some options that other similar units don't. It's speed is a huge advantage in certain circumstances. It's great in Disarray where you can just deploy it alone with the rest of your army in the other deployment area. Run the T-47 straight towards the enemy that the rest of your army is focusing on and you've largely mitigated the army splitting that Disarray can cause. AT-RTs can't really do that. The game isn't just about maximum damage output.

Just now, Alpha17 said:

We call it "Math-Wing" when people do this is X-Wing. What's the Legion term? Math Legion? Math-ion? Ma-Legio? Numbers Legion? Legion-ology?

It's been called MathHammer in Warhammer/Warhammer 40k for literally decades. My group still calls it MathHammer for Legion ...and for X-Wing.

11 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

It's been called MathHammer in Warhammer/Warhammer 40k for literally decades. My group still calls it MathHammer for Legion ...and for X-Wing.

Hmm, never heard that one, but I don't play/care about Warhammer. Still think Legion needs its own term.

9 hours ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

The math for apppes

T47

3R 3B = 3x6/8 + 3x4/8 = 3.75 hits

Storms have red defence = 3.75x3/6 = 1.875 kills.

Efficiency = cost/kills = 175/1.875 = 93.3

AtRt with rotary

5Bsurge = 5x5/8 × 3/6 = 1.5625 kills

85/1.5625 = 54.4

For a unit less than half the cost and not much squishier when you bring 2.

Now the T47 has some advantages as it can move aim and shoot so it's effeciny can be higher, but no to the point where it can out perform most other units in equivalent points baring in the impact 3 spot.

In all these threads Derrault has not provided any actual reason that can be seen black and white to why the T47 isn't garbage.

AT-RT also has speed 2, no surge to defense, and no cover. So it takes more actions to engage and suffers more incoming damage to impact weapons.

Which is something you do keep sliding past, and which I literally mentioned in this very thread (and really every thread). It’s not just about raw damage output, it’s about efficiency of output (massing the most dice dice in the fewest (single) activations), and greater resistance to attrition of damage (ie damage output loss per wound suffered/per incoming damage die).

Troopers (any kind) rapidly suffer degradation of damage (both average and maximum) from even a few wounds, which is likely to happen round 1, often before they can activate.

Which is itself another drawback of splitting value between too many activations; not only do you have to burn time activating more units to get equal (or greater) output value for the points, you also increase the value of the defenders defense (cover 2 applied across 3-4 activations negates 6-8 hits!)

Worse, if your output/defense capacity of the unit relies on activating before an enemy unit, that becomes increasingly unlikely the more you spread that amongst multiple units.

@thepopemobile100 I’d use them to disrupt and soften any points capturing units in tandem with infantry advance. If they draw any fire, good, that’s damage the far softer Rebel troopers aren’t suffering.

29 minutes ago, Derrault said:

AT-RT also has speed 2, no surge to defense, and no cover. So it takes more actions to engage and suffers more incoming damage to impact weapons.

Which is something you do keep sliding past, and which I literally mentioned in this very thread (and really every thread). It’s not just about raw damage output, it’s about efficiency of output (massing the most dice dice in the fewest (single) activations), and greater resistance to attrition of damage (ie damage output loss per wound suffered/per incoming damage die).

Troopers (any kind) rapidly suffer degradation of damage (both average and maximum) from even a few wounds, which is likely to happen round 1, often before they can activate.

Which is itself another drawback of splitting value between too many activations; not only do you have to burn time activating more units to get equal (or greater) output value for the points, you also increase the value of the defenders defense (cover 2 applied across 3-4 activations negates 6-8 hits!)

Worse, if your output/defense capacity of the unit relies on activating before an enemy unit, that becomes increasingly unlikely the more you spread that amongst multiple units.

@thepopemobile100 I’d use them to disrupt and soften any points capturing units in tandem with infantry advance. If they draw any fire, good, that’s damage the far softer Rebel troopers aren’t suffering.

As I have shown you via Math, 5 stormtroopers ignore your cover.

Like some guy once said "Never tell me the odds."

This thread confuses me. Anyone who has actually pushed the T-47 knows it is both crazy fun and, no matter how good you get with it, not really worth the points.

Both things can exist at once! If you like playing the T-47 *no one is stopping you!*

I'm in that boat myself. Just because it's a bit weak for the points *doesn't make it any less fun*. Fly it anyway! But don't try and debate that it is a a strong competitive choice...

15 hours ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

Surely you are a troll, surely no one can be that stubborn to believe a unit is good in the face of overwhelming opinion and evidence .