33 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Right but that seems to be a bunch of fuzzy logic. Where’s the hard math showing that Vader is poorly costed relative to other similar units?

Vader already has a better hit percentage than Luke on the saber, better use of force powers, more force power slots, ignores difficult terrain on all his moves, can move further than Luke and fire with a better ranged attack, has more health, provides superior support to all other trooper units, and can’t be suppressed (losing an action) or panicked (losing turns) or slowed by anything.

Luke is faster. That’s it. By every other metric, Vader is better, and for a measily 35 points.

"Ignores difficult terrain on all of his moves" is almost disingenuous. That's like saying if you cut your hands off then all gloves will fit you. Vader's low speed and the fact that you have to staple Saber Throw to his card are the two major issues people have with him. I'm not sure where "provides superior support to all other Trooper units" comes from since I would say Luke is better in that regard given that his command cards don't have drawbacks and Courage 3 and Courage - provide effectively the same benefit to surrounding units (the only time I've ever seen where it might have mattered was with Han since he's the only thing that can survive enough attacks to build up that much suppression, and even then he rallied enough to not flee at 6 tokens). The 1 Speed is a HUGE disadvantage when you consider that Luke also has both Charge and Jump 1. If you're a melee character, mobility is more important than almost anything else.

In the end, I think we mostly agree, since I think Vader's pretty much fine where he is. Veers is better, sure, but most of that is because he's 1/3 the points of Vader and if he dies without doing anything you can still win whereas if that happens with Vader you're probably boned.

Vader is amazing. But the things he is amazing at blowing up are not that useful with the given the objective sets.

If no one is bringing cans to the table a can opener will feel worthless.

This is a weakness in games with counter picks and list construction.

1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

The whole point of what he was saying was that he thinks Vader is slightly overpriced (pretty common thinking around here). Making the upgrade mandatory AND charging you for it would make no sense whatsoever.

I understand what the premise was. This has happened before with X-Wing, specific upgrades are very good on certain units. Given how obvious some of the interactions are, I would hope FFG saw them in the design phase, especially given Vader has Relentless instead of charge. Two Speed 1 moves is 8.12 inches, two inches further than a single Speed 2 movement for infantry. Courage - protects against Palpatine's Give in to your Anger or Vader's Master of Evil, Suppressive, allows for free use of Krennic's Compel, and protects against other future Suppression building effects. All this in addition to Vader always having two actions so long as he is on the board regardless of how many attacks he's attracted away from the rest of your scoring trooper units.

17 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

FFg has stated that they will not be releasing any upgrades that require you to purchase a unit that is not for your chosen faction in order to get a copy, unlike X-wing V1. So if they do release new force powers for the Clone Wars Expansions, if FFG follows through on that promise, then they will also be included in some release for the Empire and Rebellion.

Still, I am very interested to see how FFG handels the GAR being fairly force user heavy in canon as far as Commanders/Operatives.

1

Entirely possible, though I'd expect to start seeing more gaps develop in the next year as the game goes from 2 factions to 4. Unless they're planning on releasing an equal number of Imperial/Rebel expansions with the Clone Wars content, or they're going limit cards in the Clone Wars releases to ones already released, we're going to get an imbalance at some point.

The easy way around this would be to release an Anakin expansion that also includes an Imperial unit card as well, we can have proto-Vader. Makes the release dual faction, and something that helps everyone that buys it.

The other option would be to include more "Dark Side Only" upgrades with Dooku/Ventress/etc, and have one of them really help Vader, and then later release it with the Grand Inquisitor.

15 hours ago, Darth evil said:

unless they are free then they won't fix jack!

And they easily could be. FFG has released "fix" cards in X-Wing that were 0 points, or even a negative points value in some cases.

15 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Entirely possible, though I'd expect to start seeing more gaps develop in the next year as the game goes from 2 factions to 4. Unless they're planning on releasing an equal number of Imperial/Rebel expansions with the Clone Wars content, or they're going limit cards in the Clone Wars releases to ones already released, we're going to get an imbalance at some point.

The easy way around this would be to release an Anakin expansion that also includes an Imperial unit card as well, we can have proto-Vader. Makes the release dual faction, and something that helps everyone that buys it.

The other option would be to include more "Dark Side Only" upgrades with Dooku/Ventress/etc, and have one of them really help Vader, and then later release it with the Grand Inquisitor.

Given that a player who starts with a GAR/CIS army will most likely (depending on how the new armies are started) not have any copies of the generic upgrades I could easily see FFG just including existing upgrades, with some possible faction/unit specific new ones. At least until they plan on a Rebel or Imperial kit that would also include the upgrade. New Light side specific or neutral force upgrades could be included in a Kanan or Ezra expansion for the Rebels, much like you indicated for any new Dark side force upgrades.

I think the initial point is missed here...

Even if Vader needs a fix WHOLESALE in the game...you can't implement that fix in a model only a fraction of the community will be able to obtain.

Fix away...but a limited edition model IS NOT the place to do that...

10 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Did you even read what he posted?

Yes. That is what prompted my response. Did you read any of the four other threads discussing the new vader? Or the thread a few pages back discussing vader's cost? I realize this forum is sort of the wild west when it comes to moderation but we get a new clone wars speculation thread every couple of days and when the t-47 argument resurfaced, there were no less than 4 threads started on the subject that essentially contained the same conversation. These are all fine things to talk about but can we just add our thoughts to an existing conversation instead our constantly starting new ones? And for the love of yoda can people stop saying overCOSTED? The word is overPRICED. Ok. Rant over. I'll see myself out.

8 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Given that a player who starts with a GAR/CIS army will most likely (depending on how the new armies are started) not have any copies of the generic upgrades I could easily see FFG just including existing upgrades, with some possible faction/unit specific new ones. At least until they plan on a Rebel or Imperial kit that would also include the upgrade. New Light side specific or neutral force upgrades could be included in a Kanan or Ezra expansion for the Rebels, much like you indicated for any new Dark side force upgrades.

The problem with that is it essentially means the game is at a complete and utter standstill for Imperial and/or Rebel players, as nothing released would change their lists at all, other than changes to the meta. I can't say I really see them doing that, as it would have just as much of a negative impact as an imbalanced release for upgrades, assuming it's more than a month or two of just Clone Wars releases. I can see them limiting the number and types of new cards, however, so they can fit them into an appropriate OT release to be timed shortly there after.

14 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

The problem with that is it essentially means the game is at a complete and utter standstill for Imperial and/or Rebel players, as nothing released would change their lists at all, other than changes to the meta.

I agree... which is why I was thinking that, at least for the first few months of Clone Wars releases, some cross faction GCW releases could keep folks excited!

How would folks feel about things like Black Sun mercenaries or Emphys Nest biker gang being cross faction?

59 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

I agree... which is why I was thinking that, at least for the first few months of Clone Wars releases, some cross faction GCW releases could keep folks excited!

How would folks feel about things like Black Sun mercenaries or Emphys Nest biker gang being cross faction?

I'd rather Black Sun were part of a Crimson Dawn faction. Emphys Nest isn't really cross faction in my opinion.

At some point, the releases for Empire and Rebels will slow, I doubt FFG can keep the monthly releases up for Legion indefinitely. Clone Wars is probably going to have the same kind of releases as GCW has enjoyed for a full year. It's a fairly common practice for releases of existing factions to pause while new factions "catch up." We may also see two or three months of CW releases, followed by a month with an Empire and a Rebel release, like with the new vehicles, or Sabine and Bossk.

2 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

How would folks feel about things like Black Sun mercenaries or Emphys Nest biker gang being cross faction?

1

I personally hate, with every fiber of my being, Scum factions. I can't stand them. I know people want them included in Legion, but the longer the game stays a war game between competing geopolitical factions, the happier I am.

19 hours ago, Derrault said:

Right but that seems to be a bunch of fuzzy logic. Where’s the hard math showing that Vader is poorly costed relative to other similar units?

Vader already has a better hit percentage than Luke on the saber, better use of force powers, more force power slots, ignores difficult terrain on all his moves, can move further than Luke and fire with a better ranged attack, has more health, provides superior support to all other trooper units, and can’t be suppressed (losing an action) or panicked (losing turns) or slowed by anything.

Luke is faster. That’s it. By every other metric, Vader is better, and for a measily 35 points.

It's not fuzzy logic. It's basic logic. Here are Vader's problems:

1. His Threat Range vs. Luke's Threat Range: This is a place where some argue Vader wins, but he hard loses here. And this is why: Saber Throw + Relentless sucks. There, I said it. If you throw a Saber into heavy cover, you have a 42.77% to do NO damage. None. Nada. Zilch. From a unit that costs 225!!!! This is what Vader will be doing for the first 3 turns of the game, doing little to no damage. What was Luke doing? Running into position and then charging, and deleting units. Vader's threat range is the smallest in the game, because his Relentless + Saber Throw does little to no damage. He needs to force Melee to be relevant. Compared to Palp and Luke, Vader's ability to deliver his big attack is by far the weakest of the three. I would trade Vader's Relentless for Charge and speed 2 everyday of the week.

2. His Health: His Health may seem better than Luke's as it is 8 and his is 6, but this gap is almost crossed by Emergency Stims alone, which is a mere 8 points. Further, for Vader to use one of his command cards (which is frankly a worse version of SOS), he has to hurt himself, so that makes his health really a 7, not 8. Let me repeat this: Vader's health is NOT 8, it is 7. And if you want to claim it is 8, then Vader's 1-Pip is called Ambush. In other words, he has no 1 pip. If you take this into account, his '-' courage starts to show what a liability it truly is. Luke needs to be shot at twice, a measly two times, where the suppression on him gave him cover, for his health to equal Vader's. (This is because for each shot Luke should block 50% of the damage, so after two shots, Luke has 'gained' 1 HP from the suppression.) This is an HP that Vader cannot recover. So, if Luke takes 2 shots in a game when the suppression helps him (and Vader takes those same two shots where he has no suppression), Luke has the exact same health as Vader, AND has Emergency Stims, AND is cheaper.

3. Force Powers: Vader does not have more Force Powers than Luke. He has the same. 2. Why, you ask? Because he has to eat one up to add Saber Throw to become functional. Luke doesn't need to do this. Also consider that Vader had to pay for those 3 Force slots, but can't use 1, because Saber Throw takes it up. So basically, Luke has 2 Force Slots and 1 Gear, and Vader has 2 Force Slots, and pays more for less. Now, you might say that he can take Force Reflexes and gain a free dodge all the time. While that is true, Luke has an additional command card over Vader to give him a free dodge, and smart Luke players (because of Speed 2 and Jump) don't need Force Reflexes. They get by fine with just the command cards. So basically Vader has to pay a 15 point tax over Luke because Luke's command cards are better.

In short, there were 9 lists at LVO that brought Vader. None of them made the top cut, which, if it was by %, at least 1 would have made it. (About 9% of the field made the cut, and Vader lists made up about 14% of the field). In contrast, there were only 2 Palp lists, and 1 of them made it.

In casual play, Vader is 'fine', but competitively he's too out of reach. Is he a T47 or exhaust weapons? No, but that doesn't mean he's up to snuff with Luke-Leia, Veers-Boba, or Palp. In short, Vader's chief problem is he simply struggles to deliver his 'big punch', which Palp, Luke, and even the ATST don't, and all of them are priced in the same bracket. I love this game and I love FFG, but they have a tried and true history of overpricing Vader at the beginning of a game's life, to see him fade into uselessness quickly until they fix him. I hope they do so soon. I don't think it will take much (hence my suggested fix of putting Saber Throw on his card). Just a nudge, but he needs something if we'll ever see him in cuts.

As a final point, you cannot fix Vader with a force upgrade, so don't try. The problem is, if you create a Force upgrade that is good enough to make Vader top-tier, Luke, Palp, and any appropriately costed Force users will abuse it and Vader will lose again. You cannot fix under-performing units with upgrades, because a properly performing unit will always be able to take better advantage of it.

1 hour ago, SirCormac said:

It's not fuzzy logic. It's basic logic. Here are Vader's problems:

1. His Threat Range vs. Luke's Threat Range: This is a place where some argue Vader wins, but he hard loses here. And this is why: Saber Throw + Relentless sucks. There, I said it. If you throw a Saber into heavy cover, you have a 42.77% to do NO damage. None. Nada. Zilch. From a unit that costs 225!!!! This is what Vader will be doing for the first 3 turns of the game, doing little to no damage. What was Luke doing? Running into position and then charging, and deleting units. Vader's threat range is the smallest in the game, because his Relentless + Saber Throw does little to no damage. He needs to force Melee to be relevant. Compared to Palp and Luke, Vader's ability to deliver his big attack is by far the weakest of the three. I would trade Vader's Relentless for Charge and speed 2 everyday of the week.

2. His Health: His Health may seem better than Luke's as it is 8 and his is 6, but this gap is almost crossed by Emergency Stims alone, which is a mere 8 points. Further, for Vader to use one of his command cards (which is frankly a worse version of SOS), he has to hurt himself, so that makes his health really a 7, not 8. Let me repeat this: Vader's health is NOT 8, it is 7. And if you want to claim it is 8, then Vader's 1-Pip is called Ambush. In other words, he has no 1 pip. If you take this into account, his '-' courage starts to show what a liability it truly is. Luke needs to be shot at twice, a measly two times, where the suppression on him gave him cover, for his health to equal Vader's. (This is because for each shot Luke should block 50% of the damage, so after two shots, Luke has 'gained' 1 HP from the suppression.) This is an HP that Vader cannot recover. So, if Luke takes 2 shots in a game when the suppression helps him (and Vader takes those same two shots where he has no suppression), Luke has the exact same health as Vader, AND has Emergency Stims, AND is cheaper.

3. Force Powers: Vader does not have more Force Powers than Luke. He has the same. 2. Why, you ask? Because he has to eat one up to add Saber Throw to become functional. Luke doesn't need to do this. Also consider that Vader had to pay for those 3 Force slots, but can't use 1, because Saber Throw takes it up. So basically, Luke has 2 Force Slots and 1 Gear, and Vader has 2 Force Slots, and pays more for less. Now, you might say that he can take Force Reflexes and gain a free dodge all the time. While that is true, Luke has an additional command card over Vader to give him a free dodge, and smart Luke players (because of Speed 2 and Jump) don't need Force Reflexes. They get by fine with just the command cards. So basically Vader has to pay a 15 point tax over Luke because Luke's command cards are better.

In short, there were 9 lists at LVO that brought Vader. None of them made the top cut, which, if it was by %, at least 1 would have made it. (About 9% of the field made the cut, and Vader lists made up about 14% of the field). In contrast, there were only 2 Palp lists, and 1 of them made it.

In casual play, Vader is 'fine', but competitively he's too out of reach. Is he a T47 or exhaust weapons? No, but that doesn't mean he's up to snuff with Luke-Leia, Veers-Boba, or Palp. In short, Vader's chief problem is he simply struggles to deliver his 'big punch', which Palp, Luke, and even the ATST don't, and all of them are priced in the same bracket. I love this game and I love FFG, but they have a tried and true history of overpricing Vader at the beginning of a game's life, to see him fade into uselessness quickly until they fix him. I hope they do so soon. I don't think it will take much (hence my suggested fix of putting Saber Throw on his card). Just a nudge, but he needs something if we'll ever see him in cuts.

As a final point, you cannot fix Vader with a force upgrade, so don't try. The problem is, if you create a Force upgrade that is good enough to make Vader top-tier, Luke, Palp, and any appropriately costed Force users will abuse it and Vader will lose again. You cannot fix under-performing units with upgrades, because a properly performing unit will always be able to take better advantage of it.

If you really believe Saber Throw to be a waste of points, than Vader can take one of the other force powers instead (push or meditation).

The fact is that Luke’s mobility is necessary, because he is flatly weaker than Vader.

Reading anything at all into the LVO results is purely a red herring. Success with any given list is dependent on how you go about it: placement and actual play choices, not the specific tools used.

Second, the T-47 and exhaust weapons are just fine as well. If you bother to do a cost analysis you’d find the exhaust weapons are significantly more valuable than the non-exhaust ones, but they definitely require more thought by the user, which probably explains the distaste for them that’s not founded in actual math. Ditto the T-47; and it’s strange you’d argue otherwise given your statement that Luke is all about the maneuverable, which is pretty much the 47s forte.

3 hours ago, SirCormac said:

It's not fuzzy logic. It's basic logic. Here are Vader's problems:

1. His Threat Range vs. Luke's Threat Range: This is a place where some argue Vader wins, but he hard loses here. And this is why: Saber Throw + Relentless sucks. There, I said it. If you throw a Saber into heavy cover, you have a 42.77% to do NO damage. None. Nada. Zilch. From a unit that costs 225!!!! This is what Vader will be doing for the first 3 turns of the game, doing little to no damage. What was Luke doing? Running into position and then charging, and deleting units. Vader's threat range is the smallest in the game, because his Relentless + Saber Throw does little to no damage. He needs to force Melee to be relevant. Compared to Palp and Luke, Vader's ability to deliver his big attack is by far the weakest of the three. I would trade Vader's Relentless for Charge and speed 2 everyday of the week.

2. His Health: His Health may seem better than Luke's as it is 8 and his is 6, but this gap is almost crossed by Emergency Stims alone, which is a mere 8 points. Further, for Vader to use one of his command cards (which is frankly a worse version of SOS), he has to hurt himself, so that makes his health really a 7, not 8. Let me repeat this: Vader's health is NOT 8, it is 7. And if you want to claim it is 8, then Vader's 1-Pip is called Ambush. In other words, he has no 1 pip. If you take this into account, his '-' courage starts to show what a liability it truly is. Luke needs to be shot at twice, a measly two times, where the suppression on him gave him cover, for his health to equal Vader's. (This is because for each shot Luke should block 50% of the damage, so after two shots, Luke has 'gained' 1 HP from the suppression.) This is an HP that Vader cannot recover. So, if Luke takes 2 shots in a game when the suppression helps him (and Vader takes those same two shots where he has no suppression), Luke has the exact same health as Vader, AND has Emergency Stims, AND is cheaper.

3. Force Powers: Vader does not have more Force Powers than Luke. He has the same. 2. Why, you ask? Because he has to eat one up to add Saber Throw to become functional. Luke doesn't need to do this. Also consider that Vader had to pay for those 3 Force slots, but can't use 1, because Saber Throw takes it up. So basically, Luke has 2 Force Slots and 1 Gear, and Vader has 2 Force Slots, and pays more for less. Now, you might say that he can take Force Reflexes and gain a free dodge all the time. While that is true, Luke has an additional command card over Vader to give him a free dodge, and smart Luke players (because of Speed 2 and Jump) don't need Force Reflexes. They get by fine with just the command cards. So basically Vader has to pay a 15 point tax over Luke because Luke's command cards are better.

In short, there were 9 lists at LVO that brought Vader. None of them made the top cut, which, if it was by %, at least 1 would have made it. (About 9% of the field made the cut, and Vader lists made up about 14% of the field). In contrast, there were only 2 Palp lists, and 1 of them made it.

In casual play, Vader is 'fine', but competitively he's too out of reach. Is he a T47 or exhaust weapons? No, but that doesn't mean he's up to snuff with Luke-Leia, Veers-Boba, or Palp. In short, Vader's chief problem is he simply struggles to deliver his 'big punch', which Palp, Luke, and even the ATST don't, and all of them are priced in the same bracket. I love this game and I love FFG, but they have a tried and true history of overpricing Vader at the beginning of a game's life, to see him fade into uselessness quickly until they fix him. I hope they do so soon. I don't think it will take much (hence my suggested fix of putting Saber Throw on his card). Just a nudge, but he needs something if we'll ever see him in cuts.

As a final point, you cannot fix Vader with a force upgrade, so don't try. The problem is, if you create a Force upgrade that is good enough to make Vader top-tier, Luke, Palp, and any appropriately costed Force users will abuse it and Vader will lose again. You cannot fix under-performing units with upgrades, because a properly performing unit will always be able to take better advantage of it.

QFT

Second, the T-47 and exhaust weapons are just fine as well. If you bother to do a cost analysis you’d find the exhaust weapons are significantly more valuable than the non-exhaust ones, but they definitely require more thought by the user, which probably explains the distaste for them that’s not founded in actual math. Ditto the T-47; and it’s strange you’d argue otherwise given your statement that Luke is all about the maneuverable, which is pretty much the 47s forte.

do you even play this game ?

Does anyone have a picture of the new mini?

I can't find anything anywhere

53 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Does anyone have a picture of the new mini?

I can't find anything anywhere

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/2/27/the-power-of-the-dark-side-1/

That’s definitely a cool pose.

I can easily understand how we end up with poor units, SirCormac presents very solid arguments for vader being overcosted, the same that can be had for T47 and exhaust weapons being under achievers yet there are still some guys who are complete nuffies thinking these units/guns are great.

And what if these guys were play testors just feeding fake news to the developers?

On 3/2/2019 at 1:15 AM, Darth evil said:

Second, the T-47 and exhaust weapons are just fine as well. If you bother to do a cost analysis you’d find the exhaust weapons are significantly more valuable than the non-exhaust ones, but they definitely require more thought by the user, which probably explains the distaste for them that’s not founded in actual math. Ditto the T-47; and it’s strange you’d argue otherwise given your statement that Luke is all about the maneuverable, which is pretty much the 47s forte.

do you even play this game ?

Can you show me your cost analysis on the snowtrooper exhaust weapon?

I do think releasing individual packs of previously "core - only" figures would have been a great way to slide new players in or introduce new force powers. Especially with new sculpts.

not necessary in any way, but it would have been cool and most people would have bought one of the alternative sculpts anyway.

The exhaust weapons are perfectly balanced. They are unused for one reason, their primary targets are woefully over-costed or under-powered.

Play with 2+ ion weapons against vehicles and see how devastating they are to vehicles. Even if the current vehicles are improved, they will need to get a massive improvement to combat the effectiveness of ion weapons being used against them.

For the ATST and T47 to ever be useful in a competitive environment they will need to do about twice as much damage as they currently do.

On 3/2/2019 at 7:15 AM, Darth evil said:

Second, the T-47 and exhaust weapons are just fine as well. If you bother to do a cost analysis you’d find the exhaust weapons are significantly more valuable than the non-exhaust ones, but they definitely require more thought by the user, which probably explains the distaste for them that’s not founded in actual math. Ditto the T-47; and it’s strange you’d argue otherwise given your statement that Luke is all about the maneuverable, which is pretty much the 47s forte.

do you even play this game ?s

With all due respect:

He obviously do not. Exhaust weapons are just fine??? Where is the hidden camera? Does he even know the difference between DLT and the HH12? The DLT is 1/3 cheaper and does 1.75hits/crits vs 1.875 hits/crits for the HH. The HH cannot be shooted at range 1 or if you have moved this turn. And the HH exhaust itself after EVERY TIME it is fired. To suggest the HH is "just fine" is "just bonkers".

On 3/1/2019 at 8:25 PM, SirCormac said:

1. His Threat Range vs. Luke's Threat Range: This is a place where some argue Vader wins, but he hard loses here. And this is why: Saber Throw + Relentless sucks. There, I said it. If you throw a Saber into heavy cover, you have a 42.77% to do NO damage. None. Nada. Zilch. From a unit that costs 225!!!! This is what Vader will be doing for the first 3 turns of the game, doing little to no damage. What was Luke doing? Running into position and then charging, and deleting units. Vader's threat range is the smallest in the game, because his Relentless + Saber Throw does little to no damage. He needs to force Melee to be relevant. Compared to Palp and Luke, Vader's ability to deliver his big attack is by far the weakest of the three. I would trade Vader's Relentless for Charge and speed 2 everyday of the week.

I agree with most of your points here. This is overcome with objective selection. Vader on static objectives (KP, Transmissions, Vapes) is much better than Vader on Supplies. This forces the Vader player into the unenviable position of needing a high bid to veto Supplies.

On 3/1/2019 at 8:25 PM, SirCormac said:

2. His Health: His Health may seem better than Luke's as it is 8 and his is 6, but this gap is almost crossed by Emergency Stims alone, which is a mere 8 points. Further, for Vader to use one of his command cards (which is frankly a worse version of SOS), he has to hurt himself, so that makes his health really a 7, not 8. Let me repeat this: Vader's health is NOT 8, it is 7. And if you want to claim it is 8, then Vader's 1-Pip is called Ambush. In other words, he has no 1 pip. If you take this into account, his '-' courage starts to show what a liability it truly is. Luke needs to be shot at twice, a measly two times, where the suppression on him gave him cover, for his health to equal Vader's. (This is because for each shot Luke should block 50% of the damage, so after two shots, Luke has 'gained' 1 HP from the suppression.) This is an HP that Vader cannot recover. So, if Luke takes 2 shots in a game when the suppression helps him (and Vader takes those same two shots where he has no suppression), Luke has the exact same health as Vader, AND has Emergency Stims, AND is cheaper.

I feel as though, like many others that havn't played much Vader (my assumption, correct me if I'm wrong), this is "pre-IRG" thinking. The IRG are strong for many reasons, but one of the best is doubling Vader's health. IRG can be one of the cheapest effective wounds in the game (only 12.5 points per wound). I know I'm advocating adding 100 points just to "make Vader better" but there is more to this than just making Vader better. The combination of IRG and Vader are more than the sum of their parts. In the pre-IRG days it was easy enough to shoot Vader, eventually he will miss saves, and kill him. However, this isn't the case anymore. If you park Vader in heavy cover, backed with IRG it will take many full activations to bring him down. So many that it might not be worth it anymore. If you are shooing Vader, you are not (until you kill him) impacting my army at all, you are not even taking actions away through placing suppression on my units. If you kill him, great! Until you do you are (most probably) spending those activations to soften up Vader and the IRG (mainly the IRG). I have found that the presence of the IRG dissuades people from shooting at Vader for the previously mentioned reasons, they are not adding any suppression and, odds are, they are not doing much damage to Vader.

You say that Implacable is a "...worse version of SoS". This is incorrect. Again, I feel as though this has to do with "pre-IRG" thinking. When FFG reworked Master of the Force (about the same time IRG came out) it gave a huge buff to Vader via Implacable. Implacable combined with Force Push and Force Choke can inflict far more damage to your opponent than SoS. Luke cannot Force Push "between" his attacks with SoS, this means that Luke, in the best conditions, rolls 6 blacks, kills an activation and then rolls 2 reds to kill another (weakened) activation. That is about as good as it can be. Vader with Choke, Push, 3 moves and two attacks can kill off (in the perfect scenario) 2 units AND in addition 2 heavy weapons from two units he did not wipe-out with his saber. If you assume most people run 5-6 corps, this would only leave 1-2 heavy corps weapons on the board after Implacable. SoS cannot match this.

On 3/1/2019 at 8:25 PM, SirCormac said:

3. Force Powers: Vader does not have more Force Powers than Luke. He has the same. 2. Why, you ask? Because he has to eat one up to add Saber Throw to become functional. Luke doesn't need to do this. Also consider that Vader had to pay for those 3 Force slots, but can't use 1, because Saber Throw takes it up. So basically, Luke has 2 Force Slots and 1 Gear, and Vader has 2 Force Slots, and pays more for less. Now, you might say that he can take Force Reflexes and gain a free dodge all the time. While that is true, Luke has an additional command card over Vader to give him a free dodge, and smart Luke players (because of Speed 2 and Jump) don't need Force Reflexes. They get by fine with just the command cards. So basically Vader has to pay a 15 point tax over Luke because Luke's command cards are better.

Smart Vader players don't need Reflexes either. Choke is better. Like you mentioned in point 1, Saber Throw, generally, sucks. However, like the IRG, I find that people play differently because of the presence of Saber Throw. With the current meta full of courage 2 units, Master of Evil is best played just for the Dodge. Therefore, Luke only has 1 more free dodge than Vader does. Vader, in later turns, can use his "free" Force Pushes to bubble wrap himself in enemy units to protect from ranged shots.

On 3/2/2019 at 12:12 AM, Darth evil said:

...Vader's chief problem is he simply struggles to deliver his 'big punch'...

I kind of agree with this point. I think Vader's chief problem is variable length games. As you mentioned in point 1, Vader's sphere of influence (without Jump, more like circle of influence) is small compared to Luke. This makes Vader's deployment very important. You must also have your plan in mind for future turns with Vader. You cannot really react to what your opponent does. You must have a plan on turn 0 and execute it. Also, due to the power of Implacable, and how it can impact the game, knowing how many turns a game will last before it begins has a large impact on Vader's play. E.g. with Implacable you can push two units off of a KP and kill two other units on the KP. For that example it is very nice to hold Implacable until the final turn, but you don't know if 3,4,5, or 6 will be the final turn, when do you play it?

To the larger point, Luke is better than Vader, but Luke is also better than Boba, and Palp, and everyone else. I think Vader is fine (I think he is actually quite strong) IF games go to 6 rounds. In variable length games there are probably better options.

Also, Vader + IRG + Snows w. grenades, flames, droid = a ball of death with no hard counters. The IRG pull wounds off Vader. The Snows heal the IRG. Snows melt corp units. IRG melt heroes. Vader slices and dices either. Get this ball in your enemy's face smartly (don't march it for two turns of unopposed shots with no cover) and watch half their army disappear in a round.