So to summarize so far
1 hour ago, prauxim said:So to summarize so far
- A slight majority agree with 38pt, based largely on on Inquisitor
- however ~ half believe it will be under 38 due to the believe that Inquisitors is bad/overpriced at 38, that or the Delta 7 will just be 38 and bad
- A majority believe JK-7B will be be 50 or less
- ~ half believe 48 or less
- A minority believe > 51
Put me down for 38 or less, because there’s no way they will want the brand new shiny to be “bad” - I imagine that if the choice is a little on the bad side versus little on the good, they’ll favor good so they can sell more of them up front.
I’m not 100% sure though - sometimes ffg has missed it (particularly with rebel Awings, and Force users in general like the generic Inq, or even Vader who got a point decrease after data was collected)
3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:Put me down for 38 or less, because there’s no way they will want the brand new shiny to be “bad” - I imagine that if the choice is a little on the bad side versus little on the good, they’ll favor good so they can sell more of them up front.
I’m not 100% sure though - sometimes ffg has missed it (particularly with rebel Awings, and Force users in general like the generic Inq, or even Vader who got a point decrease after data was collected)
Speaking in the context of generics, are we sure the v1 is bad? The I3 RZ2 with Advanced Optics is 38 and competitively good, shouldn't the Inquisitor (and by extension, the JK) be comparable?
Edited by prauxim2 hours ago, prauxim said:Speaking in the context of generics, are we sure the v1 is bad? The I3 RZ2 with Advanced Optics is 38 and competitively good, shouldn't the Inquisitor (and by extension, the JK) be comparable?
I am kind of with you, I am not sure the v1 Inquisitors are that bad. 5 with FCS? I do think the plain Jedi Knight is probably a hair better than the plain Inquisitor because of the Delta-7's ship ability. Which put together with the Inquisitor being a step below competitive I think 38 is a good estimate for the Jedi Knight, certainly nothing lower than 37, and 39 wouldn't be that surprising because it would limit your ability to put Astros on the Delta-7s. I think 7B is the more interesting question. 4 certainly will be competitive or close (OP is a also a possibility, so it makes me keep thinking that the Jedi Knight + 7B could total 51).
So make my guesses 38 for the Jedi Knight and 12 for 7B, give or take a point for each. I definitely don't think the Knight will be cheaper than 37 and 7B cheaper than 10. I don't think you will see a combined total of Jedi Knight + 7B being higher than 51.
7 hours ago, prauxim said:Speaking in the context of generics, are we sure the v1 is bad? The I3 RZ2 with Advanced Optics is 38 and competitively good, shouldn't the Inquisitor (and by extension, the JK) be comparable?
I know the v1 has supporters. Seventh Sister is pretty good, actually. Turns out getting full-arc Crack Shot every other turn is nice. I know there have been some folks talking about Inquisitor with Conc missiles and Jendon to support them. I've found Supernatural Reflexes to be really fun on a generic Inq, but a large part of that is the fact that these guys can link into focus, for 3 total actions, while a Jedi won't be able to get more than 2 total actions.
//
Here's one thing about Aethersprites: we've left out Calibrated Laser Targeting or whatever the name of the thing which adds a focus when attacking someone in your bullseye. Judging from Special Forces Gunner, it'll probably have a fair price, rather than being free, but I'm not sure. What is a fair price on a bullseye focus? HLC is 4 dice for 4 points. I guess this is kinda 4 dice at range 1. Is it going to be priced more like Predator or FCS? I could see 2 for it. And it'd be a decent potential damage increase. But it's also so conditional (both Bullseye, and only adding a Focus) that I could almost see it being free. And if it is, I couldn't see a JK coming in at less than 38.
The v1 is bad to those who believe that any I3-4 pilot sits in an overpriced initiative dead zone. I partly agree with this assessment because half the time, you'll be paying the points for the increased stat, but still moving first and shooting last. I1 is good because it's points efficient. I2 is less value, but often the initiative floor of a given ship. I6 has value because you know you'll likely be moving last and shooting first, or at the very least move first and shoot first. I5 has value for the same reason, to a lesser extent, and also because I6 pilots are very rare and often carefully balanced as to not be too powerful.
The v1 is also bad to those who believe that (sans Quadjumper) any firepower 2 ship costing 30+ points is bad. Again I see their point, but the v1 has powerful linked actions and access to FCS as well as missiles. It's also tougher than any ship at its price point.
To sum up, the Inquisitor is a middle initiative, firepower 2 ship with a weird dial and a reliance on tricks, patiences, synergy and very careful maneuvering. It is my absolute favourite ship in the game, and I think I win a lot with them because of the ship rather than in spite of it, but I guess I could be wrong. If you prefer flying arc dodging aces like Vader, Soontir Fel, Whisper, Poe Dameron, Nien Nunb, Fenn Rau or Old Teroch, it likely won't appeal to you. If you want to fly alpha strike or efficiency lists with swarms, Ion Turrets, Veteran Turret Gunners, Barrage Rockets and Proton Torpedoes, it's not for you either. It's a little closer to hybrids like Wedge, Quickdraw and Redline, but it's not that either.
The closest analogue would probably be the typical Scum disruptors like Seevor, Palob, 4-LOM, who also sit at a middling initiative and using blocks, unpredictable movement and tricksy abilities rather than brute force or the ability to move with complete knowledge of the board state. They probably appeal to people who like non-Duchess Strikers, I1 Interceptors, non-Guri StarVipers and generic TIE/sfs as well.
Also, the generic Jedi Knight, along with Mace Windu and Saesee Tin. I just don't see these pilots appealing to the masses right now no matter how you price them. The standard Aethersprite is still an I3, 2 red ship with 4 hit points, a statline which has been deemed Bad by the community even at 34 points with a butt gun. The Jedi Knight 7B is almost strictly better than a Red Squadron Expert trading a shield for a force and a ship ability slightly better than the T-70's config. It certainly can't cost less, more likely a little more, and it's not like you see all that many I3 T-70s hitting the tables, even though they can hardly be considered overcosted.
I think we'll see the usual triple ace 556 lists, some ace + support/mini-swarm lists, and some proper swarms. I don't think we'll see many generic Jedi Knights or I3-4 named Jedi, but it won't be because they are bad or overcosted.
Edited by Okapi
The V1 has great linked actions for a non-force pilot. Less good for a force pilot, because the thing you really want for a force pilot with Lock is to Lock. And they can't link off their Lock actino.
4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:The V1 has great linked actions for a non-force pilot. Less good for a force pilot, because the thing you really want for a force pilot with Lock is to Lock. And they can't link off their Lock actino.
Or evade. I'd love of these things could boost/roll and evade. Pretty sure it's deliberate though; that the v1 has linked focus actions precisely because lock and evade would be so powerful on it. I bet that's also the reason why the Aethersprite lacks easy/cheap access to repo and evade.
Oh, for sure, yes.
It bugs me that they didn't keep the lock > evade thing from 1e.
5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:Oh, for sure, yes.
It bugs me that they didn't keep the lock > evade thing from 1e.
I kind of agree, but at the same time I'm kind of glad that they didn't.
If they did, there wouldn't be much of a choice, would it? You'd just joust, locking and evading every turn. Now, every action on the action bar has to be carefully considered against your opponents movements, actions and firing arcs. I've lost a few ships because I got greedy and grabbed a lock or a focus when I needed an evade, been too careful and evaded when I really should have switched locks to launch a missile, or done a linked action that locked me out of that perfect tallon roll the next turn. I think FFG har done a great job turning flying this thing from a PTL-fueled 1-bank/1-turn > lock/evade/focus every turn into a real test of skill (and luck
).
15 hours ago, prauxim said:So to summarize so far
- A slight majority agree with 38pt, based largely on on Inquisitor
- however ~ half believe it will be under 38 due to the believe that Inquisitors is bad/overpriced at 38, that or the Delta 7 will just be 38 and bad
- A majority believe JK-7B will be be 50 or less
- ~ half believe 48 or less
- A minority believe > 51
According to my MathyWing spreadsheet, the I3 Inquisitor and I3 Delta-7 Jedi are slightly overcosted at 38 points. The calculated price is 36 to be balanced with the 41 point T-65 X-wing. (Many named pilots, like Wedge, still retain a higher efficiency than 41 point X-wings) I have actually put the I3 inquisitor on the table so I can back up these #'s with experience.
I3 actually has some value in the currently evolving meta. For the time being, Rebel Leia swarms should compose a sizable and strong part of the meta, and those lists often have many I2 ships. Also, Y-wings and Scurrgs with ion turrets are usually at I2 and should see continued play with their aggressive costing.
Calculating the Delta-7B cost is actually rather straightforward and I would rate this projection at a high degree of accuracy. Remember, even having a single force is very very very good. (caveat, Wedge is still better than this)
I3 Delta-7B Jedi ---- 36 + 16 = 52 points
I love the V1, and am a big proponent of Seventh Sister. The issue is that for only 2 points more than FCS generic, I can get Duchess.
I love me some Duchess.
I always find those 2 points.
It can have a role, and I do like them with Sense as a knife fighting ultimate blocker type. Personally I think being at I4 with sister is actually very useful I’ve found. Lots of I3&4s out there and that extra initiative I’ve found helpful.
I just started running numbers for the named pilots. Biggest thing of note. The Delta-7B configuration is GOING TO NEED INITIATIVE SCALING . These are rough #'s for named pilots, without taking into account pilot abilities. (force & ship ability is accounted for)
On 2/28/2019 at 5:54 PM, prauxim said:gains 1h, 5str, 5k, 2sloop, looses 3f, 1str, 3tal o n
What are h and f?
2 hours ago, Dengar5 said:I just started running numbers for the named pilots. Biggest thing of note. The Delta-7B configuration is GOING TO NEED INITIATIVE SCALING . These are rough #'s for named pilots, without taking into account pilot abilities. (force & ship ability is accounted for)
- Delta-7 + configuration = Delta-7B
- I6 Anakin Skywalker --- 48 + 22 = 70
- I5 Obi-Wan Kenobi --- 44 + 21 = 65
- I4 Mace Windu --- 40 + 19 = 59
- I3 Jedi Knight --- 36 + 16 = 52
I would bet money 7B won't be initiative scaled. And they really won't need it anymore than Proton Torpedoes, or HLCs or any other ordinance that increases attack dice.
The truth is almost every upgrade in the game gets better when on higher initiative pilots. Unless everything is initiative scaled (which would get complex in a hurry), only the worst offending upgrades should scale with initiative (or anything really). Ultimately this results in a game where higher initiative aces are encouraged to have more upgrades, while generics are encouraged to have few or no upgrades while focusing on raw numbers. Which I actually think is a good thing because you are kind of forced to choose where do you want your complexity, managing numerous simpler ships, or fewer more complicated ones.
On 3/3/2019 at 11:13 AM, mazz0 said:> gains 1h, 5str, 5k, 2sloop, looses 3f, 1str, 3tal o n
What are h and f?
Yeah dunno what I was going for there, just revamped the comparison to be:
Let me know if you see any errors, I suck at dial comparison 😞
Edited by prauximOn 3/3/2019 at 9:19 AM, thespaceinvader said:The V1 has great linked actions for a non-force pilot. Less good for a force pilot, because the thing you really want for a force pilot with Lock is to Lock. And they can't link off their Lock action.
That's the thing which seems like it'll make Supernatural Reflexes much better on a v1 than on an Aethersprite. SNR allows them to trade 1 force for Boost or Barrel Roll and Focus, which allows a normal action for a Lock or Evade. Two tokens, plus a reposition. Jedi can't do that. SNR on a Jedi is just reposition. I mean, it's nice, but it's not a reposition, while upgrading a Force charge to a Focus.
On 3/3/2019 at 9:27 AM, thespaceinvader said:Oh, for sure, yes.
It bugs me that they didn't keep the lock > evade thing from 1e.
Thematically, to be sure. Balance-wise... maybe for the best.
On 3/3/2019 at 9:14 AM, Okapi said:Also, the generic Jedi Knight, along with Mace Windu and Saesee Tin. I just don't see these pilots appealing to the masses right now no matter how you price them. The standard Aethersprite is still an I3, 2 red ship with 4 hit points, a statline which has been deemed Bad by the community even at 34 points with a butt gun. The Jedi Knight 7B is almost strictly better than a Red Squadron Expert trading a shield for a force and a ship ability slightly better than the T-70's config. It certainly can't cost less, more likely a little more, and it's not like you see all that many I3 T-70s hitting the tables, even though they can hardly be considered overcosted
I think that's where the two configurations come in.
Delta 7b for 3/2/3/3 is a really familiar statline, and the ability to spend a force to reposition and get a stress-free Focus, Lock, or second reposition seems nice. I kinda think folks might fly three copies of Init 3 Poe Dameron.
Likewise, the Calibrated Laser Targeting seems like it has potential. Use a force to Boost/Barrel Roll to get bullseye with the pilot ability, take a focus, and hit pretty hard. All on White moves, too.
On 3/3/2019 at 12:00 PM, Dengar5 said:I just started running numbers for the named pilots. Biggest thing of note. The Delta-7B configuration is GOING TO NEED INITIATIVE SCALING . These are rough #'s for named pilots, without taking into account pilot abilities. (force & ship ability is accounted for)
- Delta-7 + configuration = Delta-7B
- I6 Anakin Skywalker --- 48 + 22 = 70
- I5 Obi-Wan Kenobi --- 44 + 21 = 65
- I4 Mace Windu --- 40 + 19 = 59
- I3 Jedi Knight --- 36 + 16 = 52
I kinda see where you're going, but Seventh Sister is 46 points at Init 4/Force 2. I can't see any way Anakin being 48, with Init 6/Force 3. Seems like a lot lower of a value put on Initiative than FFG will. I'd guess all that Init scaling is going to be built into the non-configuration version. In part because the CLT config also kinda-almost-sorta-not-quite gives 3 red dice.
I kinda feel like the good benchmarks are Sev at 46, and Luke at 62, and generic Inquisitors at 38. Let's keep the 52 point 7B Jedi Knight also as a benchmark. This would mean the config would be 14 points, since I'm guessing the JK will be the same as an Inquisitor.
Mace at the same price (46) as Seventh Sister doesn't seem wrong to me. He's got more force, but same Init, and probably a bit less powerful of an ability. Add 14, and he'd be at 60, only 1 point off from your results.
Obi-Wan feels like with Delta 7b, he might be a bit more expensive than Luke. The added mobility of an Aethersprite seems like it might matter. So 64-66? Subtracting the baseline 14 points for a Delta 7B config would bring Obi-Wan to 50-52. This is a bit less than the overpriced Grand Inquisitor.
I can't see Anakin with 7b costing only 70 points, though. Poe Dameron is 68, and Anakin doesn't need stress to take an extra action, and will potentially have some force charges to spare. He's down a hull point, but he's got so many tools before factoring in a pilot ability. My guess is 60 points, for 74 total if going 7b.
I think it’s going to cost $19.95 USD MSRP.
......sorry couldn’t help it.
I feel that comparing point cost to the V1 is still a less than ideal way of assessing competitive costs, despite what some have said about the perceived viability of the V1's. Results from all the tournaments in recent months tells us that they just aren't good enough. No matter how many toys you get to play with having a 2 dice gun, while now relevant in 2.0, has a hard ceiling on how much it is worth. Clearly the V1's aren't worth their costs.
The other thing I want to point out is that while we only have 4/8 unique pilots revealed for the ship, 3 of the 4 are support abilities and all of them require force to be spent to use them as well. So you have special abilities, repositioning and dice mods all fighting for those precious few force points. Those force points won't last long at all on these ships quite frankly.
As I have stated before I desperately want this ships to be viable but I just can't see them being so if they are in the 60+ point range with the 7B title.
47 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:I feel that comparing point cost to the V1 is still a less than ideal way of assessing competitive costs, despite what some have said about the perceived viability of the V1's. Results from all the tournaments in recent months tells us that they just aren't good enough. No matter how many toys you get to play with having a 2 dice gun, while now relevant in 2.0, has a hard ceiling on how much it is worth. Clearly the V1's aren't worth their costs.
The other thing I want to point out is that while we only have 4/8 unique pilots revealed for the ship, 3 of the 4 are support abilities and all of them require force to be spent to use them as well. So you have special abilities, repositioning and dice mods all fighting for those precious few force points. Those force points won't last long at all on these ships quite frankly.
As I have stated before I desperately want this ships to be viable but I just can't see them being so if they are in the 60+ point range with the 7B title.
I mean, it's possible to think of Obi-Wan or Saesee Tiin as support abilities. But both can use their abilities on themselves. Obi-Wan can focus, then spend a force after using the focus to gain a new Focus. Essentially his force charges are full focus instead of calculate. Saesee Tiin can switch around an allied ships dial, or he can just do his own. If either of them only worked on themselves, I don't think they'd be bad abilities. But they can also help other ships, which probably won't matter too often, but maybe comes in massively useful. Obi-Wan helping someone defend against a Juke Phantom Swarm could really turn around an engagement you'd otherwise lose. Saesee can help someone avoid a block at a key moment.
And if not... they're still each essentially Poe Dameron or Darth Vader at lower Initiative.
The thing I keep coming back to is any Aethersprite has two actions on a fully white dial. Each of them gets a force at the end of each turn, so they've always got Boost, Barrel Roll, or Calculate (which they get even if they fly over a Rock), and then a normal Focus, Lock, Boost, or Barrel Roll. That's pretty good. It's Poe, or a mini-Vader. Maybe they've got the 3/2/3/3 statline which is mostly like a T-70, or maybe they've got a 2/3/3/1, but with a bonus Focus result in bullseye. What seems like a 2-dice peashooter is going to have an average expected damage of 2.5 damage (3.25 if you get Range 1) when you're able to line up a bullseye and have a focus token (and you've got a white dial and a boost or barrel roll to accomplish that).
But then, I really think the v1 is under-rated. My guess is folks are going to try Jedi because they're new, and then discover that the v1 is also at least OK. Don't get me wrong, they needed the buff to their points cost, and I wouldn't mind if most folks went down another 2 points or whatever. But they've clearly felt better than I'd expected, and it seems like most folks who've tried to fly them have felt the same way. Maybe the folks who've flown them and not liked them just haven't been vocal about it.
1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:The thing I keep coming back to is any Aethersprite has two actions on a fully white dial. Each of them gets a force at the end of each turn, so they've always got Boost, Barrel Roll, or Calculate (which they get even if they fly over a Rock), and then a normal Focus, Lock, Boost, or Barrel Roll. That's pretty good. It's Poe, or a mini-Vader.
This. Force + Ship ability is basically PTL but
So basically, it's super PTL