@Brunas add this to your floor rules for krayt cup before someone calls judge.

2 minutes ago, meffo said:

it's been standard for all the games i've played. even in warhammer, where you can roll 30-40 dice per roll sometimes. not always for casual board games with friends and family, though.

It literally wasn’t a thing for x-wing until included in the tournament regulations near the end of the life of 1st edition.

they only put it in the tournament regulations because they realized people would rule lawyer it and they had to spell out "don't be that guy"

3 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

It literally wasn’t a thing for x-wing until included in the tournament regulations near the end of the life of 1st edition.

you mean it literally wasn't in the rules up until that point. people still did it. i've always done it. habit picked up from other games. i have memories from when i started playing warhammer in the 90s that i used to make sure with my opponent before the game that's how we would treat the dice. started out with just dice leaving the table being rerolled, but with all the terrain and stuff, we started doing it to all dice not lying flat on the table.

i'm not saying you have to do it, mind you, but i do consider it good manners. if you don't want to do it, you should still agree with your opponent before you start playing. otherwise you're not being nice. playing games is supposed to be fun, so it's very important being on the same page as the person you're playing with.

maybe you've never done it unless it was in the rules. i'm just trying to inform you most people do it. just make sure you have an understanding with the other player - and it'll be fine.

1 minute ago, nikk whyte said:

I literally don’t know a different way to say that no one in Atlanta played this way before the rule was written, you absolute walnut.

Lemme try, cuz you're leaving out a ton of context on this situation. Use more words. Use better words.

Ok, back in 1.0 at some point in a rules document I know no longer remember, language was put in to handle how to roll dice. It was stated that any die not landing 'flat on the play surface' was subject to a reroll. The play groups in Atlanta happily adopted this ruling in tournament and casual settings. While this was never really an issue before, in the past we used the age old 'balance another die on top' method to determine if a die was cocked or not and needed a reroll. The "flat on play surface rule" quickened the process and rate of play up. No longer were we playing janga with die on the table or debating with their opponent. It was clear language to go by and saved time. Now flash forward to 2.0, and all language about cocked die has disappeared from official documents. The OP would like that language to return, as it was clear, concise, removed chances for confrontation, and saved time.

if I die "squirts" out of your hand mid roll, do you pick it up and re roll or count it? also not in the rules, but gentleman agreement decided before the match.

9 minutes ago, meffo said:

not always for casual board games with friends and family, though.

But then you're usually using a cocked dice with a bad result to bust someone's chops about their crappy luck and everyone laughs and then you all pretend to be magnanimous and allow the re-roll anyway because you always re-roll cocked die and no one was seriously going to stick the guy with the cocked die result. And then when it is bad re-roll you let them throw it again because it will be even more hilarious if it is a crappy roll again.

56 minutes ago, Innese said:

Ah, a fan of the Original Trilogy gambit I see. I prefer the Prequel trick my [Dramatic coughing] self

"I have you now."

(rolls blanks, again)

"Maybe not."

38 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

@Brunas add this to your floor rules for krayt cup before someone calls judge.

I'm not planning on doing this, because it's a problem that shouldn't need to be spelled out for the pretty casual attitude for the event. If players are worried about what is and what isn't a cocked dice for a competitive advantage, we've failed somewhere up the chain.

With that being said, of course we have a plan for when things inevitably don't go as planned. The only fair way to handle cocked dice (that I'm aware of) is if a die isn't on a flat surface, it must be rerolled. Any kind of "flatness check" is just inviting trouble - when you ask players to balance dice on results to confirm they aren't cocked, they'll just get much better at balancing dice on crit results than blank results. Yes, this leads to some absurdity - if a die is barely touching a rock, or on lands on the edge of the playmat, reroll it, even if it's a beneficial result for you.

Dice are there to generate randomness, not be gamed for the result you want.

5 hours ago, underling said:

My rule is if a die doesn't lie flat on a single surface it gets rerolled.

I usually go with just seeing if there is a clear top face, but then again, I'm also strictly casual.

4 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

you have no written rules to make the assumption that a cocked die is invalid or able to be rerolled.

So if it's not to be rerolled, and not invalid, how else can you possibly rule it? All top faces? Half of each top face?

3 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

I literally don’t know a different way to say that no one in Atlanta played this way before the rule was written, you absolute walnut.

Ah, that explains it. You'd never see this sort of nonsense in Savannah.

2 hours ago, Brunas said:

Dice are there to generate randomness, not be gamed for the result you want.

Unless you have the proper upgrades, of course.

There isn't an explicit rule that defines which face of the die is the 'result', either. The game is written with the assumption that players know how to roll and read dice.

I think there ought to be rule that if the player rolls the dice and they don't all make it onto the table, then the result is a complete fail; if the player can't hit the table, then what hope does the mini have?

If there’s no rule, you call a judge, and let them tell you what to do.

6 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

I literally don’t know a different  way to say that no one in Atlanta   played this way before the   rule was written

I guess people in Atlanta just handles their dice based games differently then. You keep saying that it isn't in the rules, but I have to agree with everyone who's saying that it doesn't need to be written down as it's an etiquette thing. The results of rolling a die should be clear immediately, but the die landing cocked messes that up. Rolling it again for a clear result has always been the solution in any game I've played, whether it's casual family game night or an actual competitive event. I didn't even know there was a ruling about it in 1st ed and I played that for over two years. When it would come up I figured since we were playing a competitive game, all the die results should be clear and not at all open to interpretation of the cocked angle.

Just think about the die rolls like there's money riding on the outcome. If the die looks like it could be either a hit or a miss, and one of those will cost you 10 bucks while the other will get you paid, you can bet you're gonna need to re-roll that sucker.

3 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

If there’s no rule, you call a judge, and let them tell you what to do.

Every single time it happens? Or can we just assume it's happened once in the history of die rolls and been ruled to just require a reroll; and go off that ruling until we get an official statement otherwise?

14 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

so many people do not know that the cocked die rule from 1st edition didn't make the transition to 2nd. they just reach down, and roll the die again. i'm extremely hesitant to grant a fresh roll to anything when the rules dont explicitly allow it.

Whether its adnd, battle tech, SWRPG, or any other game i've been involved in, if the die (or more than one) were cocked, you reroll.

13 hours ago, Frimmel said:

You can still get cocked dice in a tower or tray.

Cocked dice or dice on the floor or dice outside of the tray should be a re-roll of all dice. All dice not flat and within the confines of a rolling area should be considered an invalid roll. As players though we are often not mature enough for this course of action.

That is true. Especally for trays that are small or have felt in the bottom. But that's why i prefer rolling in a cardboard box lid.

11 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

BattleTech, 40k, BFG, Yahtzee, etc. If there is no clear face up side it gets re-rolled. If it lands off/outside the rolling area (table, game mat, dice box, etc.) it gets re-rolled. If someone happens to be having their dice do this allot they need to work on how they're rolling.

Your experience mirrors mine.

16 hours ago, Wiredin said:

can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

The first insult... just saying.

8 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Every single time it happens? Or can we just assume it's happened once in the history of die rolls and been ruled to just require a reroll; and go off that ruling until we get an official statement otherwise?

So all t-rolls must follow the Toronto rule, despite that being nowhere in the rules?

😀 😎 🍻

25 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

So all t-rolls must follow the Toronto rule, despite that being nowhere in the rules?

I wouldn't say must , but if people are truly clueless what to do in such a situation, probably better to follow precedent than sit around twiddling their thumbs until time runs out.

Of course, this assumes there is confusion to begin with. With dice-rolling, a little common sense removes a lot of confusion.

19 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

You guys keep saying it’s standard when it 100% wasn’t for x-wing prior to the rule being included.

Yes it was, we were rerolling cocked dice before they made it official.

And there is no official rule that you must reroll dice that fall off the table, so I suppose you don't reroll them and get the final result from the floor.

By the way there is no rule about how to roll dice. So everyone should try to let them fall from a inch height and try them not turning so you get the result you want

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I wouldn't say must , but if people are truly clueless what to do in such a situation, probably better to follow precedent than sit around twiddling their thumbs until time runs out.

Of course, this assumes there is confusion to begin with. With dice-rolling, a little common sense removes a lot of confusion.

common sense OBVIOUSLY does not apply to everyone the same way, which is half the issue.

making any kind of assumptions, like when people loved to claim that dash's ability was always active, is a bad idea in a discussion about rules. You cant assume anything, because there are other ways to do it.

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

😀 😎 🍻

april 6th is our prime champ, bring something to do after you go 3-3.

5 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

april 6th is our prime champ, bring something to do after you go 3-3.

🙂 Going 3-3 wouldn't be so bad. The unbearable part would be dealing with a group that doesn't seem to think re-rolling cocked dice is a universally accepted convention of gaming. It is more fun to win but losing isn't so bad (even going 0-6) if you have fun. That this is a conversation at all suggests even going 6-0 against your group wouldn't be a lot of fun. 🙂 🍻

17 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

🙂 Going 3-3 wouldn't be so bad. The unbearable part would be dealing with a group that doesn't seem to think re-rolling cocked dice is a universally accepted convention of gaming. It is more fun to win but losing isn't so bad (even going 0-6) if you have fun. That this is a conversation at all suggests even going 6-0 against your group wouldn't be a lot of fun. 🙂 🍻

please note that i never spoke for the group. this is something been back ad forth about for a while now.

i just want you to follow through on your threat to burn it down.