18 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I could see the generic being 40 points or even less, and the title being 5 or less perhaps? Or maybe the title being init dependent?

40 points... what! You do realise that the cheapest X-wing you can get is 41 points. 6hp vs 10hp

8 minutes ago, william1134 said:

40 points... what! You do realise that the cheapest X-wing you can get is 41 points. 6hp vs 10hp

Starting around the 50 mark seems fair to me. Then for the Force users get up into the 60's.

You could still fit three in a list.

7 minutes ago, william1134 said:

40 points... what! You do realise that the cheapest X-wing you can get is 41 points. 6hp vs 10hp

2 defence versus 1.

And yes. The G1A is 41 points also. And this is arguably worse - though i did ignore that it has a WAY better dial.

I coudl see it costing 41 purely to prevent being able to get 5 though.

Although, I really wish they would use the Limited dots on cheap generics to prevent bringing too many, whilst not making them too expensive to be useful. Because several ships have generics at the point that they are probably too expensive, but you'd be able to get too many of them if they got any cheaper.

26 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

What are peoples' guesses on price here? The non force users are abotu G1A level - worse than the G1A without Mist Hunter, because lack of Jam action, but gain red Barrel Roll. Scimitar title adds Jam and red Cloak, Mist Hunter adds white roll and cannon slot, maybe we keep the Scimitar title cheap? I could see the generic being 40 points or even less, and the title being 5 or less perhaps? Or maybe the title being init dependent?

The Force users? Anyone's guess. I could see Dooku going up to 60 odd given the number of extra actions he can get, and Maul should probably have an extra cost around that of Bossk gunner, for his pilot effect and Force.

Tough to call price.

6 minutes ago, william1134 said:

40 points... what! You do realise that the cheapest X-wing you can get is 41 points. 6hp vs 10hp

This. 40pts is a Marauder. This thing is a lot better, no way, unless FFG reverts to the powercreep of 1st edition.

The dial is pretty sick (i.e. really really good ), for being a large ship. Expect this one to be expensive.

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

2 defence versus 1.

I knew you were going to say this just after I clicked submit reply.

OK, how about a B-wing then? That sucker has 1 defence and still less overhall HP and a worse dial.

Yeah, I'd revise my estimate to 41 without the title, for this reason. But I'd also re-state that yes, i think generic B Wings and G1As should probably be cheaper - except that they can't be, because 5 of them would be too many, whereas four and a smaller ship is about OK. SO they ought to be cheaper, but have 4 limited dots.

The Scurrg is probably a good comparison, too. 43 points, same bar, similar dial, same HP. A lot about that depends on the slots available though, I suspect the Scurrg pays a little extra to have access to the Turret slot.

E: and again, when did you last see a generic Scurrg without a turret on the table. Or a generic Scurrg at all?

8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yeah, I'd revise my estimate to 41 without the title, for this reason. But I'd also re-state that yes, i think generic B Wings and G1As should probably be cheaper - except that they can't be, because 5 of them would be too many, whereas four and a smaller ship is about OK. SO they ought to be cheaper, but have 4 limited dots.

The Scurrg is probably a good comparison, too. 43 points, same bar, similar dial, same HP. A lot about that depends on the slots available though, I suspect the Scurrg pays a little extra to have access to the Turret slot.

E: and again, when did you last see a generic Scurrg without a turret on the table. Or a generic Scurrg at all?

Nah, at least 45.

The Scurrg is a very good comparison, with the same statline and action bar. But the Sith Infiltrator's dial is much better, and the large base is going to make that dial seriously fast.

I don't think there's much of an added cost to the Scurrg for the turret slot. If there is, the SI has the cannon slot .and whatever slot will end up letting them launch those probe droids.

Ultimately, I don't think we can really guess at cost without knowing the slots. As with most of these things, I imagine the SI will start out costed in such a way that you can get 4 on the table, but not with each having a specific upgrade that might start to break things.

The non-force seem likely to be at around that level, anyroad.

What about the force users? I don't think there's really a good point of comparison for them - all the other non-small-base Force users have some form of extra arc.

For reference, Asajj is 74, and has a better dial and a built in better-than-dorsal turret. But only I4 and only 2 Force. So I'd peg Maul at a similar level, between 70 and 75, and Dooku probably about the same, as I'd argue his ability is by FAR the best of all of them, the ability to have 1e Phantom cloaking is huuuuuuuge.

A Scurrg or Kimogila runs you 43/44 points; it's a bit better than those.

A Firespray is 66 and almost strictly superior. Lancers are 60, and have double the agility and an auxiliary firing arc.

The title will probably be underpriced, with some of the cost baked into the chasis. That might go for the crew as well, since CIS won't have any other crew carrier until the next time points update anyways.

Mid 50s For the generic, high 60s for Maul? Say, 55 and 68?

Kimo pays for that white reload, that's worth something, albeit, not much given you have to also pay for the ordnance, and definitely pays for the ship ability which is very powerful. Scurrg is a better comparison, given that it has a very similar dial, identical actions, and probably similar slots (the Scimitar definitely has at least one Device and at least one Crew, plus Cannon and Torp based on the card layout, so it's very similar to the Scurrg).

But importantly, referencing those prices implies you think they're balanced at those prices, and they're demonstrably not, to wit, they don't see significant use.

55 is hilariously way too much. At least 10 points too much. 55 is too much for a generic WITH the title, let alone without.

48 points is a G1A with the title and Cloaking Device, which is 9hp, 3 front guns, cannon slot, white Jam, white Roll, focus, lock, 2-use white Cloak. Adding three points for a Hull Upgrade gets you 51, which is probably too much, given that shield and hull are priced to be slightly too expensive.

But then, I'm always baffled by how much people think things will be.

I'm envisioning dropping the probe behind, speeding off and jamming the higher Init pilot on your tail as being useful.

This thing is kind of a large base interceptor, with its dial. You're not gonna be circling with a turret or knife fighting. You're gonna be sliding in, unleashing a hard attack, then zooming out for another run while your droids run interference. Said droids possibly picking up a lock off the same probe.

Personally like the sound of Dooku with Grievous crew and probe, cloaking in and out of the fight, with a shitstorm of Tri-Fighters (asap please). Maul will undoubtedly do the zoom and boom better though.

Hrm. Prices.

The two ships with the same statline are the Scurrg and Lambda. Both are 43 points.

The dial on this is better than either of them (a lot more than the Lambda, a bit better than the Scurrg). A 5 K-Turn on a large ship is really great, and the 2 S-Loops give it a lot of options. This has all the hard turns, and only speed 1 are red. I can see a generic of this being a few points higher, 45-46 , on the strength of the dial and a large-base barrel roll. I wouldn't be shocked at a 51, but it doesn't strike me as necessary.

As to the title, gaining Jam and Red Cloak... well, Illicit Cloaking is 5 points for a Small or Medium, but Boosts and Barrel Rolls are more valuable on Large ships, so I kinda see the title at at least 8 points . No chance of an unexpected break, it also gives Jam, starting cloaked is pretty potent (an extra 3 ship lengths forward, if you want it, or decloak to the side into a hard turn), and the bullseye jam seems like that might matter. Maybe I'm talking myself up to 12 points . It's kinda hard to parse, because there hasn't been a large base cloak before. Heck, this is only the second reliably cloaking ship.

It shouldn't be underestimated just how much a good dial can contribute to the power of a ship and also to its point cost. The lambda shuttle looks good on paper with regards to stats but in reality the complete lack of a white hard turn really nerfs the ship when it comes to trying to keep its front guns on target.

9 hours ago, imprezagoatee said:

I think it was the separatist talent upgrade.

Ah, yup. I was looking through the preview articles, whereas I’ve only seen that card in a thread here. Thanks!

The Lancer is probably the ship that's the most similar to this. The dials are different, but comparable in quality. The statlines are similar, but the Lancer has better agility and a worse hull/shield ratio. Both have decent action bars, but barrel roll is huge (literally!) on a large ship, potentially far better than evade. Overall I'd say these are similar enough to expect more or less the same cost.

Comparing Ventress to Maul, I'd say their abilities are similar in power (strong, but situational and somewhat tricky to leverage). +1I and +1 force is clearly worth a few points. High initiative + barrel roll is very valuable, but then again a defensive force token is worth less on a ship with 1 rather than 2 agility.

If I were to guess, I'd put Darth Maul at approximately 80 points, or at least in the high seventies. Any less would be a clear admission that Ventress is overcosted (which she might be; it's not like she's winning tourmanents right now). As for the title it could be anyone's guess, but it depends whether they want a second Infiltrator to be viable. If they do, they'll lower the price of the ship and increase the cost of the title. If they don't, it'll be vice versa. I'll sit somewhere in the middle and say 6 points.

I agree with most of what @theBitterFig and @thespaceinvader have said. Overall the non-force users should land somewhere around 45-49 with O-66 maybe creeping into the low 50s. I have see a lot of people mention the positives of a large base on movement, but you can't discount the negatives too. Larger target, easier to block, and easier to reposition around and still get shots on. All of that should contribute to also lowering the cost of some of these. Count Dooku and Maul pilots will be hard to judge what their points are. At minimum, a 10 point increase over the other pilots to use Dooku or Maul, likely Maul is closer to 15+. Other factor to consider is that if Dooku or Maul feel too low at the mid 60s to low 70s, you should also consider all of the upgrades these pilots will have to decide on taking or not. There is a lot of powerful and interesting stuff in that expansion that will pile up quick, including the almost auto take Scimitar which feels like it's going to be around 7-10 pts.

21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Hrm. Prices.

The two ships with the same statline are the Scurrg and Lambda. Both are 43 points.

The dial on this is better than either of them (a lot more than the Lambda, a bit better than the Scurrg). A 5 K-Turn on a large ship is really great, and the 2 S-Loops give it a lot of options. This has all the hard turns, and only speed 1 are red. I can see a generic of this being a few points higher, 45-46 , on the strength of the dial and a large-base barrel roll. I wouldn't be shocked at a 51, but it doesn't strike me as necessary.

As to the title, gaining Jam and Red Cloak... well, Illicit Cloaking is 5 points for a Small or Medium, but Boosts and Barrel Rolls are more valuable on Large ships, so I kinda see the title at at least 8 points . No chance of an unexpected break, it also gives Jam, starting cloaked is pretty potent (an extra 3 ship lengths forward, if you want it, or decloak to the side into a hard turn), and the bullseye jam seems like that might matter. Maybe I'm talking myself up to 12 points . It's kinda hard to parse, because there hasn't been a large base cloak before. Heck, this is only the second reliably cloaking ship.

Cloaking Device is probably overcosted as it is, Cloak as an action with no ability to get it free is rarely useful outside the opening engagement (I've run it a bunch and can still count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've used the second charge, and almost all of those have been because it crapped out well before engagement), and it's red which is a huge penalty.

I'd predict that outside of Dooku pilot the only time most Scimitars will cloak will be the free one at setup. Once you're engaged, you actively want to avoid taking an action that costs you your shot. The decloak ability is solid if you can make it work, which does increase the price.

I'd still stick firm at 43-45, and no more than 5 points for the title.

6 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Any less would be a clear admission that Ventress is overcosted

She is. Still. She's paying a premium for a spectacular green dial on a ship with only one red move and no red or linked red actions.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

She is. Still. She's paying a premium for a spectacular green dial on a ship with only one red move and no red or linked red actions.

She just dropped six points though, along with Kylo. I'd assume the both of them (along with Maul) will keep dropping if they don't see play. It's probably hard to balance these big ships properly. I remember just before Christmas this forum has more or less decided that the Upsilon was dead on arrival, and hey, FFG turned out to be right after all.

What they really should do though, is release some crew and illicits with proper synergi with Ventress, Dengar and Bossk, rather than simply keep lowering their costs. Same with the TIE Interceptor and the Kihraxz. Give us something to do with those slots!

2 notes about costing: 1.this ship is isolated not only to its faction, but in its faction. Unlike Han gunner, it cannot go on anything, as it is the thing. As for in-faction balance, it will be the beef boi in a swarmy faction (aside from the bourgeoisie who can afford all the Globglogabgalab fighters). It will be pricey, but affordable for its friends (see Upsilon). After all, so much of the really good FO stuff is too cheap, especially for easy 3 dice easily modded (Longshot, Scorch, Backdraft, etc). The only better bargain are cheap and easily modded guns with delightful time on target: A-Wings (and that bonus die with Lulo)!

Point 2: We just have guesses. True, I'll admit that's it's fun to guess. But for now, we need to know:...

POINTS AND SLOTS! POINTS AND SLOTS! POINTS AND SLOTS POINTS AND SLOTS!

I stand by my point. I recognise that she's dropped in cost, I'm saying 74 is still too much.

Upsilons are pretty pants apart from a: Tavson and b: whatever Hypercomm is called in 2e. If not for that one absolutely broken upgrade, they'd still be trash.

I'd love to see some double-modification-slot upgrades to help the Squint and the Kihraxz, because those slots are worthless right now.

Its role is also useful to think abotu. Maul and Dooku are gunship aces, the other two are support craft. So a large part of their costing will I think depend on how many ships they're intended to support, which I'd guess would be 5 Vultures with decent init and abilities, 6 or even 7 without.