Hello all,

Thing that happened earlier today:

Player 1 had Masterplan in play ( https://keyforge-compendium.com/cards/288-masterplan

Player 2 uses EMP Blast to destroy all artifacts ( https://keyforge-compendium.com/cards/163-emp-blast

What happens to the card facedown underneath Masterplan? We couldn't find anything in the rules stating one way or another.

Leaves Play area of the rules only states "all non-Æmber tokens and status cards on the card are removed, all upgrades on the card are discarded, and all lasting effects applied to the card expire.".

Since the card isn't an upgrade, it isn't discarded. It's not a lasting effect as far as we can tell, and even if its facedown card effect is a lasting effect it doesn't say what to do with the card. Does....the card just stay there facedown forevermore?

I would discard it, not knowing what better else to do, but that's probably not correct.

On 2/24/2019 at 2:19 PM, Wandalf the Gizzard said:

I would discard it, not knowing what better else to do, but that's probably not correct.

It probably is correct (errata on this would 99% go that way imo), but there is no basis for it in the rules. You could stretch it and say that because you put the card under it and there is no thing saying that card goes elsewhere the card remains there, so ulimately is discarded with it. This would however also mean that if Masterplan is returned to a hand, the card would follow to the hand instead of being discarded. Kind of weird. Definitely needs an erratum.

5 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

It probably is correct (errata on this would 99% go that way imo), but there is no basis for it in the rules. You could stretch it and say that because you put the card under it and there is no thing saying that card goes elsewhere the card remains there, so ulimately is discarded with it. This however also mean that if Masterplan is returned to a hand, the card would follow to the hand instead of being discarded. Kind of weird. Definitely needs an erratum.

It definitely needs some sort of ruling, as the equivalent ability in Magic assumes cards like that are actually purged but can be brought back via the process outlined in the card that sent them away. So once the Masterplan goes away, there is nothing to retrieve it from purge anymore. But this isn't Magic so the ruling needs to be made.

One of my best decks has two of them and if I lose one I have always discarded the card under it. There's nothing to keep it there, no way to play it and it hasn't been purged, so I see no reason why you wouldn't just discard the card. The closest basis in the rules is like losing a creature with an attachment. It's pretty clear cut to me but I understand people see things differently, so feel free to get an official ruling if you want it.

This feels very similar to the generic rule about putting your opponent's cards into an out-of-game area that you control, and then instead discarding them. It's not the same but it feels somehow similar. We need a ruling for sure but I've played it as a discard myself. If it's not that, then it's purged, which feels really rough.

The exact text is "facedown beneath" - the card itself is not technically purged or anything. I usually assume it's something like an upgrade, it's "attached" to the card in question so if something happens to Masterplan, then the extra card is treated the same way an upgrade is if something happens to the creature it's attached to.

6 hours ago, Simplegarak said:

The exact text is "facedown beneath" - the card itself is not technically purged or anything. I usually assume it's something like an upgrade, it's "attached" to the card in question so if something happens to Masterplan, then the extra card is treated the same way an upgrade is if something happens to the creature it's attached to.

I get that, but until there is an official ruling, all I have is general supposition and a ruling from another game that works differently from that supposition. So I'm remaining agnostic on this for now.

Let's just talk it out for a moment. Set aside the reasonable answer.

I'll address the biggest alternative immediately.

It is not purged. There is no basis for it to do so. Cards are purged by very specific effects from other cards, so if the card was purged it would say so on Masterplan.

So what other reasonable course of action is there? What's left? Let's hear the other options and weigh in on them.

11 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

Let's just talk it out for a moment. Set aside the reasonable answer.

I'll address the biggest alternative immediately.

It is not purged. There is no basis for it to do so. Cards are purged by very specific effects from other cards, so if the card was purged it would say so on Masterplan.

So what other reasonable course of action is there? What's left? Let's hear the other options and weigh in on them.

Some would like to say that there is only one possible option for the card: that it be put into discard. I can think of three other options off the top of my head.

There is the very reasonable option that the card stays, face down, exactly where the Masterplan was. As there is no longer any way to access it, it just remains there for the rest of the game. In that option, there is no functional difference between that and a purged card except for terminology. As such, it's less clear than the equivalent ability in Magic where the card is purged but can be retrieved from there by the effect that put them there.

As a possible modification to the first idea, it may be possible that a second play of Masterplan would allow you to choose the card you had under the first but could not be accessed anymore. It would be strange but possible.

Another option is that since the card came from the hand, it would return there. It's not likely, but it is possible.

I have to respectfully disagree that it would just stay there, there's no precedent for it and it seems the only reasoning for it is that there are cards that do that in Magic. I know it's the played-out argument but I still think it's the best one: This isn't Magic.

Getting it with another Masterplan would be interesting, but I would argue that as Masterplan specifically calls for a card from your hand it wouldn't be right to get that other card as it is not in your hand.

I like your third idea a lot, that would be a viable option and I for one would like that a lot more than discarding, but it takes away the risk/reward for using it. Plus I'm biased with a deck that has two masterplans so I can't say one way or the other fairly. Still, you gave one I hadn't considered so I'll give you that!

15 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

I have to respectfully disagree that it would just stay there, there's no precedent for it and it seems the only reasoning for it is that there are cards that do that in Magic. I know it's the played-out argument but I still think it's the best one: This isn't Magic.

Getting it with another Masterplan would be interesting, but I would argue that as Masterplan specifically calls for a card from your hand it wouldn't be right to get that other card as it is not in your hand.

I like your third idea a lot, that would be a viable option and I for one would like that a lot more than discarding, but it takes away the risk/reward for using it. Plus I'm biased with a deck that has two masterplans so I can't say one way or the other fairly. Still, you gave one I hadn't considered so I'll give you that!

Who cares if it like MtG? The card doesn’t tell you what to do with it if Master Plan is gone before you can play it. Therefore you can’t do any thing with the card because the only card it was linked to for retrieval is gone. It’s purged in all but name. You can’t claim it goes to discard because thd card doesn’t tell you that. You can’t claim it returns to your hand because the card doesn’t tell you that. You can’t interact with it anymore because the only card that knew what to do with it is no longer connected to it.

I just figured out the best way to articulate my argument:

You play Masterplan. You place a card from your hand under Masterplan. Masterplan gets destroyed and goes to the discard pile. The card under Masterplan must stay under Masterplan. Therefore, the card is discarded and now sits under Masterplan in the discard pile .

Check.

Read "leaves play" section in the rulebook.

9 hours ago, Synnaq said:

Read "leaves play" section in the rulebook.

They did, and it doesn't specify for this one instance. The card is not a non-aember token, not a status card, nor is it an upgrade or a lasting effect. I believe this is also why it is worded that you play the card beneath it before you actually sacrifice the Masterplan. This does make me wonder now if it is similar to Wild Wormhole + Kelifi Dragon, in which the Kelifi Dragon stays on top of the deck if you don't have the aember. Doing as much as you can, you would still have to sacrifice Masterplan by activating the ability, right?

I vote the card is discarded as it is the cleanest with the precedent set with what happens to aember on a Safe Place or Pocket Universe getting discarded back to the pool.

9 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I just figured out the best way to articulate my argument:

You play Masterplan. You place a card from your hand under Masterplan. Masterplan gets destroyed and goes to the discard pile. The card under Masterplan must stay under Masterplan. Therefore, the card is discarded and now sits under Masterplan in the discard pile .

Check.

I’ll gule the card you have chosen for Masterplan each time it is destroyed before you use it second ability so we know its following it wherever Masterplan goes. Checkmate. 😈

@KandyKidZero Purge is the closest game precedent within the game rules to what Masterplan does. It puts a card outside of the game underneath something face-down, just like you put purged cards face-down underneath your Archons identity card.

1 hour ago, Hyperjayman said:

I’ll gule the card you have chosen for Masterplan each time it is destroyed before you use it second ability so we know its following it wherever Masterplan goes. Checkmate. 😈

@KandyKidZero Purge is the closest game precedent within the game rules to what Masterplan does. It puts a card outside of the game underneath something face-down, just like you put purged cards face-down underneath your Archons identity card.

Oh, wow. I missed that part of Purge altogether. Good catch.

13 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I just figured out the best way to articulate my argument:

You play Masterplan. You place a card from your hand under Masterplan. Masterplan gets destroyed and goes to the discard pile. The card under Masterplan must stay under Masterplan. Therefore, the card is discarded and now sits under Masterplan in the discard pile .

Check.

By that logic, when Masterplan is returned to the hand via Whispering Reliquary or Grasping vines, the card will be under Masterplan in your hand . Have fun with that one.

31 minutes ago, Rabbitball said:

By that logic, when Masterplan is returned to the hand via Whispering Reliquary or Grasping vines, the card will be under Masterplan in your hand . Have fun with that one.

You know that would be fair and consistent, or you could just admit that I got you with that one. 😛

I will let you all know when I hear a reply. As always I promise not to rub it in if I am validated, and I'll be the first to admit my error in judgment if I am told otherwise.

1 hour ago, TheSpitfired said:

You know that would be fair and consistent, or you could just admit that I got you with that one. 😛

I will let you all know when I hear a reply. As always I promise not to rub it in if I am validated, and I'll be the first to admit my error in judgment if I am told otherwise.

It really doesn't matter to me what the intention or the ruling turns out to be, as long as it results in consistent play. I'm just pointing out that what some people think is patently obvious may not be so obvious to others, and both sides have good reasons for their belief.

10 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

You know that would be fair and consistent, or you could just admit that I got you with that one. 😛

I will let you all know when I hear a reply. As always I promise not to rub it in if I am validated, and I'll be the first to admit my error in judgment if I am told otherwise.

You didn’t get anyone. Also you need to answer how to play a face-down card since according to you the chosen card has to remain underneath Masterplan where ever it goes. But you can’t because you can’t play face-down card unless an ability lets you.

The only rule linked to face-down cards is purge where it states they can’t be interacted with unless a card states otherwise. And we have Sprangler Box which purges creatures and tells you to return them all to play if Sprangler Box leaves play. Masterplan only allows you to play the chosen card if its (A Your turn. (B If Masterplan is from your chosen house to be able to activate it. & (C If Masterplan is in play.

And really trying to alter game rules to be correct?! ‘Oh the card has to stay with Masterplan where ever it goes.’ Thats cute and cheecky....when my 7 year old neice trys it. Your an adult, stop being childish.

1 - Masterplan's use is an Omni action. You don't have to declare house Shadow to use it. You should really have a better handle on the card before arguing about it. Yes that was offside but you're trying to get a rise out of me so that's what you get.

2 - *You're

3 - Love you too buddy. That being said you should take it down about 25-30%. I know it's 2019 but you can still be respectful while disagreeing.

11 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I will let you all know when I hear a reply. As always I promise not to rub it in if I am validated, and I'll be the first to admit my error in judgment if I am told otherwise.

^Just in case you missed it. Cheers and have a good day.

1 hour ago, Hyperjayman said:

The only rule linked to face-down cards is purge where it states they can’t be interacted with unless a card states otherwise.

Technically, in a manner the rules around your deck also apply to face-down cards since that's what it is - a pile of facedown cards.

Can I react to a reaction? If so, I'd like to like Spitfired's laughing face above!

You aren't going to believe this. I finally got a response. Only took 4 months, although technically the response came to my re-submission of the question from last month.

"If Masterplan leaves play, the card underneath it is placed in the discard pile."

For everyone losing sleep daily over this being unresolved, there you go. Rest well tonight!