Is Tavson underpriced or are other Upsilons overpriced (outside of the Tripsilon concoction)?

He's plainly more than 6 points better than the basic Ups, and he's much better than the other named ones, even the ones that are more expensive.

Is he "fair", though? He's very good, offering an extreme durable chassis (made even more durable by his ability), fearsome offense, a terrific ability, and even okay Initiative. He has a solid selection of meaningful upgrades available, like Hypercomms, Collision Detector, and Phasma.

He is, however, a ship that has no turn around moves, no repositioning, and a single white turn. It's hard to argue that he's OP when a ship that stiff takes up a 3rd of your list.

Yet I have to admit that there are a few lists where I'd pay at least a few points more to keep that big lug in the list.

Any other opinions out there from people who've used or been abused by Tavson?

I tend to think it's mostly Tavson who is out of line, but not by much.

As a thought experiment, if Tavson was 64, Cardinal was 63, and Stridan was 62 (just reshuffling the prices of the three highest upsilons), that'd seem fine. Tavson provides a lot of action economy, while the other abilities are... nice perks? Rerolling focus isn't bad, but only at the start of the game, and only for low initiative pilots. Stridan's range is nice, but even with the Initiative bump, it isn't worth more than Tavson's actions.

It's not about someone being OP or whatnot, it's more about the power level of the various pilots being a bit out of alignment. One of the really nice things about the 2e points system is that they've been able to make pretty small changes. I think about Ten Numb going down 3 points, while Braylen Stramm only went down 2 points, in recognition that while they both started in the same place, their power levels are a bit different.

My opinion on the Ups is that it was good because it had capabilities that made it a good answer to our current meta.

The most meta-relevant ships were High-initiative, capable of high burst damage, and could highly modify 2 defense dice. (2 evades nearly on-demand) (boba, whisper, luke, etc) and were 3 ship lists.

The upsilon's high native attack allows it to punch through those 2-evade-consistent ships. 12 health and ability to reinforce prevents ace alpha-strike lists from being able to blow it off of the board before it shoots.

If we were in a reversed meta, of something like 6 ship lists with more random modification, the Ups would not be as good. Also, you'll note that low-health generics with lesser attack values are ******* awful unless carried by a card that mitigates their attack consistency issues and ability to get killed without ever shooting.

Also, tavson is worth more than 6 *RELATIVE TO THE SKB*, but the problem reaches further than him and I don't think he's even remotely overpriced vs ships like Han, Lando, Boba, Luke, etc.

Almost all named pilots that see use are underpriced relative to the generics, or generics are overpriced.

Teroch is worth more than 6 over a Skull, Duchess is more than 4 over a Black Scout, etc.

The current game does not value initiative increases and abilities correctly. The striker is the worst offender- Initiative pricing is linear and pilot abilities are free.

We have never NOT been in a meta not built around named pilots being better than the generics per-point by head and shoulders. The closest we got was the first 3 waves of 1.0, but those lists clearly lived and died by Howlrunner.

So yeah, tavson is better than an SKB.

Biggs is better than a Red Vet, Duchess is better than a Scout, Hask is better than a Black, Han is better than an ORS, Magva is better than a renegade, Vader is better than a storm, Vermiel blows the Scarif out of the water, Teroch is better than a skull, boba is better than a bounty humter, Han is better than a Captain, Seevor is better than a surveyor, QDis better than an omega, BD is better than an Omega without Gunner, Kylo is better than a test pilot, Scorch is better than an omega, Tallie/lulo are better than a green, Poe/nien are better than a black, Finch is better than a generic, Rey is better than a sympathizer. Either most named pilots need to go up, or generics need to go down.

I get what you're saying, and I explicitly agree in the second paragraph. That doesn't really address the question I'm trying to answer.

I've found Tavson pretty strong for his points, but that's about the extent of it. I think he's what a upsilon needs in both cost and ability to be effective.

He's like 1.0 Quickdraw in that at times, he's a bad choice for your opponent to shoot at, but three things restrict him from being overpowered like that 1.0 QD, one you've already mentioned and that's his dial. The others are that he's not very good on his own and that his ability can be turned off, either because he can be easily ignored due to positioning or stress (Baffle in extended can help with this).

I think that one other issue with him in hyperspace is the limited options he has for crew (there are good ones, for sure) and lack of baffle-- it would be nice if there's something that would force an opponent to really go after him.

I have been flying 2 ups and qd since release in various iterations. I have actually opted to not use Tavson. He is great if you get that head on joust but a decent player will wait until they outflank tavson or until he is stressed and his ability won’t trigger.

Abilities that rely on your opponent to trigger are always suspect as good players play around it.

Pattern analyser makes a huge difference to upsilons though, very strong.

7 minutes ago, Storgar said:

I have been flying 2 ups and qd since release in various iterations. I have actually opted to not use Tavson. He is great if you get that head on joust but a decent player will wait until they outflank tavson or until he is stressed and his ability won’t trigger.

Abilities that rely on your opponent to trigger are always suspect as good players play around it.

Pattern analyser makes a huge difference to upsilons though, very strong.

This is why I think Baffle is important for Tavson, even though it comes at a cost.

Overall, my own experience with Tavson has gone one of two ways, my opponent shoots at him and pays for it severely (making Tavson seem undercosted), or ignores him and picks apart the rest of my list. Tav may get a couple of good shots in that time, but that's usually better than going after him early.

31 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I've found Tavson pretty strong for his points, but that's about the extent of it. I think he's what a upsilon needs in both cost and ability to be effective.

He's like 1.0 Quickdraw in that at times, he's a bad choice for your opponent to shoot at, but three things restrict him from being overpowered like that 1.0 QD, one you've already mentioned and that's his dial. The others are that he's not very good on his own and that his ability can be turned off, either because he can be easily ignored due to positioning or stress (Baffle in extended can help with this).

I think that one other issue with him in hyperspace is the limited options he has for crew (there are good ones, for sure) and lack of baffle-- it would be nice if there's something that would force an opponent to really go after him.

That's a good point. You need to make sure that whatever he's flying with can dodge or absorb the attention of the opponent's squad. Tactics should also center on making sure that Tavson is in a good position to keep throwing 4 dice attacks.

33 minutes ago, Storgar said:

I have been flying 2 ups and qd since release in various iterations. I have actually opted to not use Tavson. He is great if you get that head on joust but a decent player will wait until they outflank tavson or until he is stressed and his ability won’t trigger.

Abilities that rely on your opponent to trigger are always suspect as good players play around it.

Pattern analyser makes a huge difference to upsilons though, very strong.

Yeah, that makes sense if the rest of your squad cant really avoid the attention, then Tavson is just ignored until he can be outmaneuvered.

45 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Either  most named pilots need to go up, or generics need to go d  ow  n  .

Broadly, yes. But which direction depends on ship.

Take Duchess. She is absolutely, 100%, not underpriced. The named Strikers are in general very appropriately priced. Their issue is the genetics don’t provide great value. Even the I1 possibly, due to how easily they pop. But the Black Squadron probably should be 1-2 points cheaper.

Broadly speaking the issue is I5 and I6 are undercosted for most. The I3 &4 pilots are almost universally fine to overcosted relative to other things.

Tavson is fine. His ability turns off when you're stressed so actually a lot of the other Ups pilots are comparable or even situationally better.

19 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

That's a good point. You need to make sure that whatever he's flying with can dodge or absorb the attention of the opponent's squad. Tactics should also center on making sure that Tavson is in a good position to keep throwing 4 dice attacks.

Yeah, which is why I think he's balanced (or at least not over powered) because his ability to keep that good position and his ability active limits his dial even more.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I get what you're saying, and I explicitly agree in the second paragraph. That doesn't really address the question I'm trying to answer.

My rant is basically saying "Generics bad, words good, please define an intended power level to be used as a baseline for what is 'fair'".

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

  He is, however, a ship that has no turn around moves, no repositioning, and a single white turn. It's hard to argue that he's OP when a ship that stiff takes up a 3rd of your list.

He is absolutely fair. Its genuinely baffling how often opponents running extremely mobile lists make it as easy as possible for Tavson to shoot. They make zero effort to force Tavson into an awkward spot or to turn around. Almost always moving as quickly as they can into the best possible lane for Tavson to engage which is usually 75% telegraphed turn 0. Then once combat starts they target Tavson first and complain about the results. I have run Kylo, Scorch/Backdraft, and Tavson a decent amount. Its so far my favorite hyperspace list that doesnt include a Striker. Usually sending Tavson forward as aggressively as possible to see if the opponent will bite or leave him alone as a slow moving "flank". There are so many higher initiative lists that can reliably run circles around Tavson....if they choose to.

The in game counter play against Tavson is very real.

Yet I consistently see Rear Arc boost A-Wings or YT1300s engaging Tavson head on. For whatever reason Rebel & Resistance players dont like losing to First Order and the impact that Tavson has on the game is memorable so he is talked about alot. Meanwhile Poe, Force Users, Rey, Rose Crew, Boba, Han, Vader and other hyperspace ships don't need to take damage to get that second action or to throw double modified 4 dice and are able to "choose" the location of combat. As a point of reference, Luke and Tavson are both 62 pts. There is in game counterplay against all of that stuff listed but with Tavson were talking about nearly the entire hyperspace card pool having clear options for how to fight him.

Tavson is fine and critical to First Order's overall balance. Dormitz is the undercosted Upsilon.

5 hours ago, Biophysical said:

He is, however, a ship that has no turn around moves, no repositioning, and a single white turn. It's hard to argue that he's OP when a ship that stiff takes up a 3rd of your list.

Agreed, the dial kills this ship more than any other (even though the Lambda's dial is worse it has the rear arc), so it has to be a cheap crew carrier/support ship or it would never be used.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Tavson is fine and critical to First Order's overall balance. Dormitz is the undercosted Upsilon.

I agree Tav is fine, and Dormitz I would say is OK as well. The Tripsilon list is dying on the vine, it made its splash; it has so many counters as well as an easy way to midigate its initial kill shot (board edge setup facing away from center toward sides) that is will not be the boogieman no matter how many cries are heard on the forums. I'd keep them priced as they are, or heck, even lower the costs of the starkiller base Angus cows by a point or two.

6 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

it has so many counters as well as an easy way to midigate its initial  kil  l sho  t

Not if you are playing Empire.

Considering FO was "balanced" to the point of being **** near doa, I would like see even more point reductions across the whole faction. And before you scream Tripsilons, there's an easy fix. Have Dormitz and hyperspace tracking data affect small ships only.

4 minutes ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Considering  FO was "balanced" to the point of being **** near doa,

Wait why DOA?

FO seems ok so far.

I've noticed Tavson isn't all that great when he's a higher initiative than his attackers. I feel like facing lower initiative pilots is his Achilles heel. He's way less scary to shoot at when he's already fired off a shot.

23 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Wait why DOA?

FO seems ok so far.

I keep thinking about something a Hearthstone streamer said when reviewing cards for a new set. "This isn't unfair enough to see play."

FO strike me as totally fair. On the one hand, that's great. On the other, it's DOA because it's not unfair enough to bother flying.

Tavson is at the right point cost, others need to be reduced and HTD needs to be made unique.

SKB @ 52

Thanisson @ 56

Dormitz @ 56

Tavson @ 62

Stridan @ 60

Cardinal @ 60

Dormitz seems scary but he is effectively an I3 generic after set up and the only reason he sees play is because of TripUps. If that list goes away (HTD is made unique or Dormitz effects S/M base only) then you'll never see him again with a points increase on him as others are suggesting.

Stridan is missing upgrades that work with his ability, at the moment only affecting coordinate, while nice, is pretty much a non-value add especially on an I4 who can be blocked more easily and denied his advantage. Add in AS for +10 points and even the only upgrade that works with his ability (Hux +10 more) and all you can fit in beside him is average/crappy ships.

Cardinal needed to work on I4 ships and below, not just I1-I3's. Plus his ability is very meh anyway.

FO is lacking a cheap support /crew ship and because of the 4 die attack you can't drop the UPS points below 51 so it can actually take upgrades and support your main force.

This will be even more obvious with the next waves as their counterpart (Resistance) will have a 6 ship stable with 4 of them being able to carry crew (speculation, maybe only 3) while FO will still be stuck with the same 4 ships.

All FO crew are substandard at best anyway and being the only faction unable to use bombs will also give them a disadvantage against the upcoming Vulture swarm faction.

Upsilons really aren't that that powerful. In fact, my first win ever (my third game) was against upsilon+double lambda. (First ed) I was by far the worst player there, and I won that game by literally flying circles around my opponent. WITH A Y-WING. It was my Y versus his up, and he simply couldn't turn around fast enough to catch arc on him, and I just plunked away with a ion cannon, my unskilled **** forgetting to give him ion tokens, until he died. With a dial that bad, you can't be overpowered, you can be good, but no way overpowering.

4 minutes ago, Roller of blanks said:

Upsilons really aren't that that powerful. In fact, my first win ever (my third game) was against upsilon+double lambda. (First ed) I was by far the worst player there, and I won that game by literally flying circles around my opponent. WITH A Y-WING. It was my Y versus his up, and he simply couldn't turn around fast enough to catch arc on him, and I just plunked away with a ion cannon, my unskilled **** forgetting to give him ion tokens, until he died. With a dial that bad, you can't be overpowered, you can be good, but no way overpowering.

It's a different game now.

Just now, Hiemfire said:

It's a different game now.

Unless the dial is significantly improved, my point still stands

8 minutes ago, Roller of blanks said:

Unless the dial is significantly improved, my point still stands

Not really:

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v4!s!229:-1,-1,-1,212,-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v5!s!288:185,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Different game and different, cheaper beasts that happen to have the same names...

Edit: same dial though...