What kind of punishments, especially for peasants, do exist in Rokugan?
Is there some kind of prison? Do hands get chopped off? Can one be exiled? What about paying in money or in goods for doing crime?

Specifically the peasants currently in question are dealing with forbidden goods (drugs), so what would normally be an appropriate punishment for that? 😃

There aren't any prisons for peasants - there is exactly one that I know of for samurai, which is in Otosan Uchi, and very rarely used. Exile would be seen as just asking the peasant to either continue their crime elsewhere, I think.

Fines aren't typically used, I would imagine, because it would imply to me that there's a level of mercantile interest or even capitalism in the interaction that Rokugan usually doesn't have. Mutilation is possible, I guess, but I don't know that it would be used in this case.

Emerald Empire describes three levels of crimes, two of which it only discusses in relation to samurai. There are minor offenses, serious offenses, and grave offenses. The former two are only discussed in relation to samurai, so I can't say what punishment would be for certain. That said, I imagine minor crimes are treated as minor by doshin and other peasants, who try to keep the matter from samurai ears. Maybe they get a beating, or maybe they get off with a stern warning. By contrast, if a samurai hears of a peasant committing a minor crime, they can elevate it into a serious one, and then you probably get anywhere from mutilation to execution. The same is true for serious crimes that peasants commit - they get reported to the samurai.

For grave offenses, the punishment for peasants is death. Period. They are executed and things move on. That said, I would surmise that drug-dealing to other peasants would be considered either a serious or grave offense by a peasant. They're impeding the peasants' ability to work for their lord. That said, if it's drug dealing to samurai... definitely death would be my indication.

EDIT:

Wait, just found the relevant section of Emerald Empire:

Quote

Commoners convicted of lesser offenses still often face execution. However, other punishments are also used, such as imprisonment, public flogging, or a punishment designed to fit the specific crime, such as the loss of a hand as punishment for theft.

So I'd stand by my earlier mention of death as being the appropriate punishment here, but there apparently are prisons now.

9 hours ago, Endwaar said:

So I'd stand by my earlier mention of death as being the appropriate punishment here, but there apparently are prisons now.

Inprisonment is likely for a couple of days only (and possibly combined with a flogging) in most cases, for instance for disturbing the peace or being a nuisance while drunk, and only if the crime didn't victimize samurai. This doesn't really require a prison or jail cell, just somewhere that can be closed off. In a pinch even tying someone to a pole will work. I can see long term inprisonment as a punishment to make an abject example of someone, but otherwise I'd expect more immediate punishments: death if necessary, but for lesser crimes not something that will prevent the peasant from going back to work as quickly as possible.

There have always been jails though - just mostly to put people in until they confess or are to be tortured (until they confess). For peasants that's rarely a requirement.

As usual I default to historical practices, in this case mostly from Japan with some from China (not that there is much difference considering Tang and Confucian influence on Japanese law codes).

That means prisons are rare, i.e. there are jails where suspects await trial and where convicted criminals wait for the execution of their sentences but long term facilities are not common.

Now, for actual punishments, they are quite draconic.

First of all there is communal punishment, i.e. If member of a group commits a crime and the remaining member of the group do not report it they are equally guilty. This provides an incentive for people to police themselves but it also means that at times you will see an entire family or and entire village be executed for the crime of one person (altough just as often they would receive lesser punishments).

The actual punishments would consist of:

Death penalty: Murder, Arson, Treason, Rebellion. Mostly by Crucifixition or Beheading but if you search historical source you can also find such pleasant punishments as Boiling, Burning and Sawing. In Rokugan add Maho to this category.

Exile: In Rokugan this isn't as feasible as it was in Japan where criminals could be exiled to specific islands. In a way it would be the closest you could find to a prison sentence. Exiles would also be usually tattooed. In Rokugan I can see the Mantis using this as a way to settle isolated island and the Dragon or the Unicorn doing the same to tame rougher wilderness areas.

Forced Labour: In mines, usually, but also as menial servants.

Corporal punishment would usually be caning or flogging. I've never read about removing hands of feet, but the amputation of noses or ears was common.

Confiscation of business and assets: Commonly done to merchants for breaking regulations.

All useful information, thanks!

On 2/23/2019 at 1:36 AM, nameless ronin said:

There have always been jails though - just mostly to put people in until they confess or are to be tortured (until they confess). For peasants that's rarely a requirement.

So, there is torture, yes? I wasn't sure about this, since it kind of does not fit the impression I had of Rokugan, where it would seem a mayor break with Compassion and maybe Courtesy . Because of that, the interrogation of a bandit in one of our sessions was rather civil 😀 Would torture also be used on samurai (maybe only in extreme cases)?

1 minute ago, Stollentroll17 said:

All useful information, thanks!

So, there is torture, yes? I wasn't sure about this, since it kind of does not fit the impression I had of Rokugan, where it would seem a mayor break with Compassion and maybe Courtesy . Because of that, the interrogation of a bandit in one of our sessions was rather civil 😀 Would torture also be used on samurai (maybe only in extreme cases)?

Yes. Rokugani justice is mostly based on testimony and confession (Kitsuki investigators notwithstanding). If confessions are not being made, torture can be used to obtain one - including from samurai. In fact, since confessions are really not needed to convict non-samurai torture for that purpose is arguably used mostly on samurai. If a magistrate wants to tie up a case with a nice little bow he or she might still torture a heimin though. Justice aside, torture might be used in war for the usual purpose of trying to extract information.

Lying or even just witholding the truth is dishonorable, dishonest and insincere, so they go against three of the Virtues of Bushido. Torturing a samurai is distasteful, but on balance not against Bushido if done to find the truth (even if the "truth" is whatever the person with the highest status says it is).

There is a disturbingly detailed (ok not that much) sidebar in Emerald Empire on that very topic. While torture is used ON samurai to extract confessions, it is definitely not performed BY samurai, as it is still unclean. I mean, “they have staff for that”!

15 hours ago, Franwax said:

There is a disturbingly detailed (ok not that much) sidebar in Emerald Empire on that very topic. While torture is used ON samurai to extract confessions, it is definitely not performed BY samurai, as it is still unclean. I mean, “they have staff for that”!

And they're of the burakumin caste.

Another point is that if a samurai decides to punish someone directly, they might just kill them, both for the infraction as well as the time to deal with it, but if a samurai notices something weird and the headman or someone else in authority is nearby, the headman can offer to take care of it to prevent the punishment from being fatal. Additionally, as mentioned above, the headman will often police a village, to prevent the samurai from noticing any problems.

Also, some of the torturous deaths mentioned above are not to get a confession, they are the actual punishment, usually done publicly as an example to the rest.

I'm also not saying that all samurai will punish any infraction they see. However, if they are compassionate, they are more likely to ignore it then point it out, since if they point it out, clearly the peasants need to do something about it, even if it is the most minor thing. However, given the disparity between most peasants and samurai, infractions are pretty black and white, and anything will get you a beating at least.

One of the things I change from how Rokugan is, usually depicted, in keeping with my preference for cultural more being based on the real world, is that I very much downplay the importance of testimony* and make confession the cornerstone of the legal system and very much necessary for conviction barring overwhelming evidence or maho.

On 2/25/2019 at 1:06 AM, Stollentroll17 said:

All useful information, thanks!

So, there is torture, yes? I wasn't sure about this, since it kind of does not fit the impression I had of Rokugan, where it would seem a mayor break with Compassion and maybe Courtesy . Because of that, the interrogation of a bandit in one of our sessions was rather civil 😀 Would torture also be used on samurai (maybe only in extreme cases)?

Yes torture is used, yes it would be used on samurai to extract confessions.

Mind you, what I talked about above, were punishments, not torture. Again, borrowing from the real world**, torture was heavily regulated in the type of torture that could be used and the frequency and extent to which it could be used, and a few details that I enjoy is that if a prisioner did not confess, even after undergoing torture any punishment metted out had to be a step lower than if a confession had been obtained, and that if a prisioner died under torture he was considered innocent and the family entitled to restitution.

The common methods were through rope binding and suspension or through pressing/crushing.

*L5R, amazingly, both downplays the importance of testimony in western and modern law enforcement and overplays how important how it was in Southeast Asia and does the opposite in regards to evidence.

** In this case I don't borrow from China at all. Japan coulbe heavy handed with the torture and punshment stuff, but as far as torture goes the Chinese were way to enthusiastic about it.

L5R is a RP game continually looking for areas of Drama. The strong reliance on Testimony creates plenty of drama...especially when PCs know someone of status is lying. This system also reinforces the importance of rank and status in Rokugani society.

6 hours ago, Void Crane said:

L5R is a RP game continually looking for areas of Drama. The strong reliance on Testimony creates plenty of drama...especially when PCs know someone of status is lying. This system also reinforces the importance of rank and status in Rokugani society.

Depends how you want to play it. I know that some players like the idea of working from within the rigid structure of society, while others want there to be some sense of fairness. Its come up a few times within my own group in various games, where there is a rigid hierarchy, and depending on what you needed to do to advance within the hierarchy, if you have to be devious and treacherous or not to advance, can greatly impact the fun of the group. Our group generally doesn't find it fun, especially for an overarching theme, as it can generate a sense of futility towards the game that makes us lose interest. Others might enjoy it more. It all depends on what sort of story your group likes.

14 minutes ago, Mirith said:

Depends how you want to play it. I know that some players like the idea of working from within the rigid structure of society, while others want there to be some sense of fairness. Its come up a few times within my own group in various games, where there is a rigid hierarchy, and depending on what you needed to do to advance within the hierarchy, if you have to be devious and treacherous or not to advance, can greatly impact the fun of the group. Our group generally doesn't find it fun, especially for an overarching theme, as it can generate a sense of futility towards the game that makes us lose interest. Others might enjoy it more. It all depends on what sort of story your group likes.

I see how this could be an issue for some groups, but Rokugani society does tend towards fairness - or at least honor , which should amount to pretty much the same thing. The PCs might often have to deal with the exceptions to this and bringing about fairness while being actively sabotaged is likely a common task for them as the protagonists of the story, but nonetheless the Emerald Empire on the whole is a lawful and just place.

1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

I see how this could be an issue for some groups, but Rokugani society does tend towards fairness - or at least honor , which should amount to pretty much the same thing. The PCs might often have to deal with the exceptions to this and bringing about fairness while being actively sabotaged is likely a common task for them as the protagonists of the story, but nonetheless the Emerald Empire on the whole is a lawful and just place.

Yeah, though you can play it where someone of high status can be moderately evil and still be reasonably honorable. This is the basis for many Crane and Imperial villains (Ex: Kakita Yoshi). The villains working within the empire are the epitome of Lawful Evil (from D&D).

On 2/25/2019 at 1:06 AM, Stollentroll17 said:

All useful information, thanks!

So, there is torture, yes? I wasn't sure about this, since it kind of does not fit the impression I had of Rokugan, where it would seem a mayor break with Compassion and maybe Courtesy . Because of that, the interrogation of a bandit in one of our sessions was rather civil 😀 Would torture also be used on samurai (maybe only in extreme cases)?

It is. But Compassion and Courtesy need to be balanced against Duty (your sworn duty to find the culprit) and Sincerity (since one assumes the person you're putting to the question has been chosen because either they're refusing to answer or you believe they're lying, so compulsion is the only way to get 'The Truth').

Oh - and a quote from the most recent fiction:

Quote

Bayushi Dairu stabbed a triumphant finger at the copy of The Articles of Heaven, a treatise on legal reform in the Empire in the wake of the brutal reign of Hantei XVI, the Steel Chrysanthemum. “Here, Daisetsu-san!” he said, unable to keep a hint of victorious glee from his voice. “These are the Miya daimyō’s own words, and they prove me correct! Torture is not to be used on an accused if there is any doubt as to his soundness of mind. That is a point for me; so I am in the lead, now!”

Hantei Daisetsu offered a bow of concession. “Indeed, you are, Dairu-san. Which is…very unusual.”

“Very unusual?” Dairu put on a face of exaggerated outrage. “I may not always be correct, but I don’t think it happens so rarely it is very unusual.”

Daisetsu grinned. “My apologies,” he said, bowing again. “That is not what I mean. This fact is unusual. I have been led to believe that, in the quest for justice, no one is exempt from torture.” He couldn’t stop the grin from fading.

On 2/22/2019 at 10:21 AM, Endwaar said:

There aren't any prisons for peasants    - there is  exactly one that I know of for samurai  , which is in Otosan Uchi, and very rarely u  sed. Exile would be seen as just asking t  he peasant to either continue their crime elsewhere, I  think. 

I'm pretty sure there is also a prison town for samurai in the Unicorn territory, far from the border with other clans. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name at the moment.

City of Lies says the Civil Hall in Ryoko Owari has a prison. It also describes Pitiful, the eta employed by the magistrate as her torturer (he's apparently quite good at it).

4 hours ago, T_Kageyasu said:

I'm pretty sure there is also a prison town for samurai in the Unicorn territory, far from the border with other clans. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name at the moment.

Bugaisha/Outsider Keep, probably? Not exactly a prison, but certainly equivalent to exile.

Forced retirement might also be employed as a form of imprisonment for a samurai. Keeps them alive, but they are then expected to be a monk instead of a bother.

In general, I get the sense that atonement is usually done via death, and there aren't really 'half steps' that people take. Most solutions are immediate and permanent.

20 hours ago, Mirith said:

Forced retirement might also be employed as a form of imprisonment for a samurai. Keeps them alive, but they are then expected to be a monk instead of a bother.

In general, I get the sense that atonement is usually done via death, and there aren't really 'half steps' that people take. Most solutions are immediate and permanent.

Atonement probably depends on how severe the infraction is and what your current HGS values are. If they're low, then you're screwed, because no-one thinks you'd actually try to atone or, if you did, that you would succeed, so it's probably seppuku for you. If they're high and your offence wasn't incredibly bad (don't grope the Emperor, unless they want you to, in which case most definitely grope the Emperor), you probably have a chance to atone.

A peasant's punishment is whatever the proximate samurai say it is, though if it's ridiculously harsh (decapitation for sneezing while the samurai is talking) and/or often, your boss might receive a harshly-worded letter from their boss, and that gets you an earpull.

Keep in mind:

Imprisonment is considered a fate worse than death... they aren't for reform, but for maximizing the dishonor of the prisoner's family and lord... plus, the lord is theoretically fiscally liable for the prisoner.

it's a potent cruelty. Politics as usual.

This does make me wonder about exile to the Kaiu Wall. Even if someone can't fight, they're stuck there helping the Crab via all kinds of menial efforts (cooking, cleaning, caring for horses and armor, running messages and baskets of arrows all over the wall during battle, resetting siege engines, etc.), and even the Crab can't stop complaining about what a lousy job they have.

12 hours ago, Lieutenant Obvious said:

This does make me wonder about exile to the Kaiu Wall. Even if someone can't fight, they're stuck there helping the Crab via all kinds of menial efforts (cooking, cleaning, caring for horses and armor, running messages and baskets of arrows all over the wall during battle, resetting siege engines, etc.), and even the Crab can't stop complaining about what a lousy job they have.

Odds are the Crab wouldn't take an exile lightly. Serving at the Wall isn't just about holding against a PHYSICAL enemy, it's also about not getting tainted and becoming an infiltrated agent while doing so, which folks with a low Honour score would be more likely to do to start with.

I've noted this elsewhere--sending someone to The Wall as "punishment" is vanishingly rare. First, manning and holding The Wall is the Crab's sacred duty, so to suggest it's suitable as a form of punishment for other Rokugani could readily be taken as a grave insult by the Crab. More pragmatically, fighting on The Wall is a very specialized type of warfare, that requires very specific expertise and motivations. The last thing the Crab are likely to want is someone who's not especially motivated to be there, who they have to train, and then hope doesn't become a serious liability. Such punishment DOES happen, but the circumstances tend to be very specific, probably being only a small part of broader dealings between the Crab and another clan.

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 11:41 AM, JBento said:

Odds are the Crab wouldn't take an exile lightly. Serving at the Wall isn't just about holding against a PHYSICAL enemy, it's also about not getting tainted and becoming an infiltrated agent while doing so, which folks with a low Honour score would be more likely to do to start with.

True, but then at some times they will take anyone.

A Twenty-Goblin-Winter essentially says " I don't care who you are and who you were, if you can fight, you're Hida now ", which is basically what happens to Keinosuke in A Ronin's Path - he was an accused murderer, and when the Emerald Magistrates turned up, Hida Tonomatsu makes them fight a duel to first blood to claim him out of her garrison's ranks.

A Twenty-Goblin-Winter is generally declared when the Clan is in serious trouble, though; that's not to be considered 'normal'.