The Death Star was supposed to replace the Senate. Instead of allowing (minimal) local controls to give an illusion of non-tyranny, the Empire would just threaten to blow up planets instead. The Battle of Yavin threw a hydrospanner in that idea and it's why the rebellion got open since there was no longer any pretense of non-totalitarianism on top of making everyone angry over blowing up one of the core worlds. Jason Fry covered this in the Essential Guide to Warefare and his commentary. His note that this happened on the 1000th anniversary of the Ruusan reformation is particularly interesting.

8 minutes ago, NanashiAnon said:

The Death Star was supposed to replace the Senate. Instead of allowing (minimal) local controls to give an illusion of non-tyranny, the Empire would just threaten to blow up planets instead. The Battle of Yavin threw a hydrospanner in that idea and it's why the rebellion got open since there was no longer any pretense of non-totalitarianism on top of making everyone angry over blowing up one of the core worlds. Jason Fry covered this in the Essential Guide to Warefare and his commentary. His note that this happened on the 1000th anniversary of the Ruusan reformation is particularly interesting.

That's a bit simplistic. The Moffs (and Grand Moffs) were meant to replace the Imperial Senate. It was a swap of centrally appointed leaders loyal to the Emperor replacing locally elected leaders (ideally) loyal to their own peoples. The Death Star was simply the enforcement stick; it didn't eliminate the need to govern in any real way.

12 hours ago, NanashiAnon said:

The   Death Star was supposed to replace th  e Senate.

You can’t replace the Senate! Palpatine is absolutely essential to the Empire.

There's this whole myth going around that authoritarian fascism is efficient (the source of which is mostly fascist propaganda). Like other fascist leaders, Palpatine ruled by making his underlings compete with each other for his favor (I could make a historical comparison here, but I'm going to try to avoid invoking Godwin's Law as long as possible ) rather than having them cooperate. This does not build an efficient government or state, but what it does do is to keep the guy on top in power, because as soon as an underling becomes a threat, there will be several others chomping at the bit to eliminate their competition.

But surely, Palpatine was smarter than that? Well, yes... and no. Palpatine's goal wasn't to build the strongest empire. Palpatine's goal was all about personal power. Better to have undisputed control over a lesser empire than risking the empire becoming more important than the emperor. No wonder the empire started collapsing as soon as Palpatine kicked the bucket, that wasn't a bug, that was the main feature.

This is kind of what always irked me about the idea that the imperial military buildup was some kind of necessary evil in order to combat the Vong. Palpatine was consumed by the dark side. He wasn't a nuanced villain with shades of gray. He was driven solely by a lust for personal power. Anyone else in the galaxy were just means to end to get that power.

Of course, then you might say "Well, that makes him sort of boring as a character!", and you'd be correct.

Which is why it's mostly Darth Vader representing the empire on screen (and why Snoke's backstory doesn't matter ).

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

This is kind of what always irked me about the idea that the imperial military buildup was some kind of necessary evil in order to combat the Vong. Palpatine was consumed by the dark side. He wasn't a nuanced villain with shades of gray. He was driven solely by a lust for personal power. Anyone else in the galaxy were just means to end to get that power.

Of course, then you might say "Well, that makes him sort of boring as a character!", and you'd be correct.

Which is why it's mostly Darth Vader representing the empire on screen (and why Snoke's backstory doesn't matter ).

The Emperor seems to be a Narcissist, Sociopath, and a Machiavellian, he's pretty much full dark traid personality archetypes. Yet he belongs to the Sith order with its emphasis on transfer of power to a worthy successor (also narcissistic, yet practical). He doesn't seem to give a **** about the rule of two, he only enforces it when he feels threatened by his meditations on the destiny of another darksiders, such as when he has Dooku betray Ventress because of her growing power.

I'm pretty sure the Vong where a add-on in the Meta plot of the extended universe.

How is it that the Vong keep coming up in this thread?

33 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

How is it that the Vong keep coming up in this thread?

Vong insurgents of course.

3 hours ago, Eoen said:

The Emperor seems to be a Narcissist, Sociopath, and a Machiavellian, he's pretty much full dark traid personality archetypes. Yet he belongs to the Sith order with its emphasis on transfer of power to a worthy successor (also narcissistic, yet practical). He doesn't seem to give a **** about the rule of two, he only enforces it when he feels threatened by his meditations on the destiny of another darksiders, such as when he has Dooku betray Ventress because of her growing power.

I'm pretty sure the Vong where a add-on in the Meta plot of the extended universe.

The necessity of the rule of 2 ended, when the jedi had been overthrown. Only the reign of darkness remained.

Well the real heads of the First Order are obviously Vong wearing Ooglith Masquers (spelling is hard).

7 hours ago, Rimsen said:

The necessity of the rule of 2 ended, when the jedi had been overthrown. Only the reign of darkness remained.

The rule of two isn't really about the Jedi, it was about keeping the Sith order strong by reducing internal strife. The Sith defeated the Jedi several times in the past only to fall to infighting.

Vader seemed big on the rule of two he kept pruning the competition back.

Obviously. When the Two become Three, that most likely means one of the apprentices will first go after the other to gain the attentions of the master.

Oh the rule of two... the circle is complete where this thread is concerned.

I've always took the interpretation that Palpatine used the Vong as an excuse, but some high ranking imperials may have honestly believed in it.

4 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Oh the rule of two... the circle is complete where this thread is concerned.

This threads a zombie until the book ships.

18 hours ago, Archlyte said:

How is it that the Vong keep coming up in this thread?

They're kind of like herpes in the way that you can make them go away for a while but you won't ever be completely rid of them, and they're about as welcome.

Once you get them into your expanded universe, rebooting is the only cure.

3 hours ago, NanashiAnon said:

I've always took the interpretation that Palpatine used the Vong as an excuse, but some high ranking imperials may have honestly believed in it.

Well... old Palps had been dead for two or three decades when the Bio-BDSM boys first showed up. I guess it's possible he gave some nebulous justifications for a military build ups including something vague about "future threats" that someone, in hindsight could interpret as having foreseen the Vong.

Kind of how people credit Nostradamus with predicting stuff only after it happens.

10 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Well... old Palps had been dead for two or three decades when the Bio-BDSM boys first showed up. I guess it's possible he gave some nebulous justifications for a military build ups including something vague about "future threats" that someone, in hindsight could interpret as having foreseen the Vong.

Kind of how people credit Nostradamus with predicting stuff only after it happens.

It's in the Outbound Flight, where Palpatine's agent is telling Thrawn about an outside threat, and Thrawn with the Chiss even reinforces it with proof.

On 2/23/2019 at 9:43 PM, penpenpen said:

There's this whole myth going around that authoritarian fascism is efficient (the source of which is mostly fascist propaganda). Like other fascist leaders, Palpatine ruled by making his underlings compete with each other for his favor (I could make a historical comparison here, but I'm going to try to avoid invoking Godwin's Law as long as possible ) rather than having them cooperate. This does not build an efficient government or state, but what it does do is to keep the guy on top in power, because as soon as an underling becomes a threat, there will be several others chomping at the bit to eliminate their competition.

I have been doing a lot of research into the idea of "polycratic chaos", as it is often referred to. Making sure the several spheres of influence are always fighting one another rather than focusing on seizing absolute power. Which makes me wonder how the Imperial Advisors play into the whole picture and in relation to the original topic of the thread. According to the Imperial Sourcebook, Advisors are directly beneath Palps and control the bureaucracy through COMPNOR. Does that make Advisors members of "the Party"? Are Imperial Advisors basically leading members of the Select Committee? Or do only a few Advisors hold membership in COMPNOR and use it as a way to exercise power over the others? What exactly are the Advisors' role in the hierarchy itself? Sources of all kinds are very vague in this regard.

33 minutes ago, Prophet 49 said:

Sources of all kinds are very vague in this regard  .

There not being a definitive answer in-universe, so that the rules can be interpreted and reinterpreted on Palpatine's whim, is very on-brand for that sort of state.

Or even interpreted by the reader, much as historians/scholars have different visions of how historical states functioned when presented with conflicting evidence, I suppose. That seems to be a common theme in this thread, what with the original topic and the conversation about Palpatine and the Vong.

40 minutes ago, Prophet 49 said:

Or even interpreted by the reader, much as historians/scholars have different visions of how historical states functioned when presented with conflicting evidence, I suppose. That seems to be a common theme in this thread, what with the original topic and the conversation about Palpatine and the Vong.

And ultimately this is adventure fiction about space cowboys and warrior princesses. A certain vagueness in the details of the political apparatus depicted here should be expected.