Hi:

Having viewed yet again the Sound of Music , please, help me with these; all newbie questions about the Ecclesiarchy:

Any thoughts or official answers about female clerics in the Ecclesiarchy (are they allowed to preach, or are they like catholic nuns, etc.; are they even allowed at all)?

Do priest have to be celibate? Can they marry, form families? If so, can they marry within the Cult?

With the info of the DH in hand I'd say that the official aswers is: there are so many "cults"/churches of the GE that it leaves the field open for anything (religious-wise), in the Imperium, as long as they worship the GE!

Thanks!

L

Look in the Inquisitors Handbook and read up on the Sisters of the Void. All your questions concerning gender and roll in the ecclessearchy will there be answered.

When it comes to the Imperial Cult, remember, it's not one cult or religion but thousands of them who all have one thing in common: they all think the God-Emperor is the bee's-knees and hold no god above him. Other then that, they can vary considerably in their approach and dogma, just as long as they don't rock the boat for the other 9,286 sects and their individual interpretations, mutations, and evolutions of the Imperial Creed. It's like looking at Christianity as one religion instead of the multitude of faiths that are derived from the Judeo-Christian mythose... and then lumping Shinto, Buddhism, and Hindu beliefs and practices into the mix just for funsies.

Hi!

Thanks G, my thoughts... exactly!

L

Of course, you cannot mention females in the Ministorum without discussing the Adepta Sororitas

The first Shira Calpurnia book Crossfire mentions various sects of the sisterhood as well and gives some insight into the kind of roles they play on the planet Hydraphur.

Hi!

So - yes' to be sure -, priests can marry & not be celibate, it depends on their sect's/doctrine interpretation of the Creed, right? I guess gay priestsare allowed too... (anyone non-mutant or Xenos works!)

L

Yes, what sect he serves is really the issue here. That said, I prefer to present the average Priest as if he were the 40k equivalent of a Catholic Priest, who believe that sacrifice of personal comforts is the way to bring one's self closer to their god. (and who consequently abuse their power and break the celibacy rule behind doors when they can) So most low ranking priests and brothers in monasteries are actually celibate, but as they gain in power these "little indiscretions" tend to be overlooked; until you get to the horribly perverted bishops who play at being absolutely puritanical on the surface but have subservient priests bringing them little boys and girls to keep them company in the middle of the night.

LETE said:

Well, even mutants could believe in the Emperor and have their preachers ("one day, the Emperor reborn will forgive our sins and our bodies will be made pure again"). Of course, those guys probably never will be official members of the Ecclesiarchy but I would allow one in my games, using the Priest career.

Dogma can always be twisted to suit the needs of the moment, so I prefer to look at Imperial gender roles from a more functional point of view.

It could be argued that celibacy runs counter to the best interests of the Imperium. After all, the Imperium is in constant need of warm bodies to be sent against its multitude of enemies and for working in the factories that see to the complex needs of the Imperial machine. Since birthrates are mostly dependent on the number of fertile females, their importance, even in the Ecclesiarchy, should be considerable.

I got to pondering this birthrate-deathrate dynamic when figuring out how the military (especially the Imperial Guard) maintains morale in the battlefield. Historically, one highly useful means of keeping the spirits of a mostly masculine fighting force up has been brothels. In the case of the Imperium, though, I personally don't see institutionalized prostitution as a money-driven enterprise, so I made it a spiritual one.

Enter the Ordos Hierodula of St. Kadesha, the temple prostitutes of the God-Emperor. These Ordos are an officially sanctioned project by the Ecclesiarchy that consists exclusively of women, and provides many rear echelon services to the Guard. Their duties as medical and logistics personnel ares very much secondary to their primary function of providing human comfort and sexual services to worthy Guardsmen. Not just anyone has access to them, of course: their intimate services are available only as a reward for distinguished conduct in battle.

This system serves multiple purposes:

• The promise of sex is one hell of a motivator for young men
• The hierodule-sisters are in close enough proximity to evaluate physical, mental and spiritual fitness
• The genes of the best soldiers of the Imperial Guard have a better chance of surviving and eventually re-entering its service.

The offspring of such union would of course be raised to meet the needs of the Imperium, keeping the Scholae Progena well-supplied.

Whatever the political clout of women may be in the ranks of the clergy, it is an inescapable fact that since anyone can die for the Emperor, but only women can give birth for the Emperor, the functional significance of women is much greater than that of men. In fact, there is good cause to call them 'sacred'.

Hi!

Good points... However, too many babies/people also can cost the State a lot - see China.

L

LETE said:

True, but China wouldn't have much excess population if it did the equivalent of the Imperium of Man and waged constant bloody war against Russia, the US, the EU and India! ;D

Though far more rare than males in the existing fluff and novels, there are definately female Clerics in the Cult Imperialis. Heck, the driving doctrine behind the Red Redemption are the "Ludmillan Dictates", so named for their fanatical female founder (Ludmilla being her name...). Likewise there are the Adepta Sororitas.

As for prostitution and the Imperial Guard: I doubt it would be common practice to see "sacred prostitutes" in widespread Imperial service, but the abovementioned idea works well enough and even has some real-world precident. Far more common is the inclusion of prostitutes (not illegal in the Imperium!) in the massive train of camp followers that accompany the Imperial Guard. Several of the IG-themed novels make explicit reference to this fact. The real encumbering factor is the conflict of authority this presents, as clergy are under the auspices of the Ecclesiarchy where as prostitutes that service Imperial Guard regiments fall under the auspices (and payroll) of the Departmento Munitorum due to their status as "combat support services". There would even be nice tedious forms that could be filed, misplaced, refiled, stained with recaff, misfiled, found, refiled, stamped vigorously and finally perhaps acted upon... [Form DM87547-PS43-D Rev.6571 "Request for Authorization to Augment ***** Procurement, Imperial Guard, Category III Part VII (short form)"]

And people wonder why scribes are so important to the Imperium...

The Catholic angle is very prominent in the Cult Imperialis for obvious reasons: The massive hypocrisy combined with the sacred duty to the Holy Emperor to have babies ! I personally like the image of a Mormon Missionary with a chainsword, but then I live in Arizona. A Rabbi with a bolter and powersword: Sheer awesome-sauce! The point being, there is alot of room in the Ecclesiarchy for variety, just so long as that variety is utterly lacking in heresy. Fear not, for even heretics have their uses in the eyes of the Emperor: Kindling, for example.

Interesting ideas, but a whole new meaning to the term 'soiled dove'. a female redemptionist could be really cool, maybe even as a redemptionist-style female assassin, actually gives an idea for an alternate rank , i'll see what i can come up with.

"Though far more rare than males in the existing fluff and novels, there are definately female Clerics in the Cult Imperialis. Heck, the driving doctrine behind the Red Redemption are the "Ludmillan Dictates", so named for their fanatical female founder (Ludmilla being her name...)."

As far as I know Ludmilla is a Deacon ... & unless I'm not hip to the Ecclesiarchy, a deacon is a lay "church helper," in "real world" terms.

"As for prostitution and the Imperial Guard: I doubt it would be common practice to see "sacred prostitutes" in widespread Imperial service..."

There were several religions (mostly) Middle-Eastern, which used "sacred whores."

L

LETE said:

Yep, but the Ecclesiarchy doesn't strike me as an organisation which would provide any funny activities to their flock (beside the occasional witch-burning of course). They seem more of the austere you-are-sinning-filth type to me.

Actually, if I were a Guardsman, I would prefer to spend my leisure time (and this includes whoring) as far from these guys as possible.

Imperial Cult does include thousand-thousand different religions, each with different types of customs and rituals so almost anything is possible in one planet or another.

However, there is one common denominator which goes through the Imperial Dogma:

It is, ultimately, a Cult of Sacrifice. Everyone in the Imperium is expected to sacrifice something (or everything) for the Mankind and Imperium. Emperor himself, eternally bound to his mechanical throne, destined to serve without pause or rest and denied even the peace of final death is a very clear example of how this "Cult of Sacrifice" works: "The holiest is the one who sacrifices most".

Thus, I would assume a great majority of priests and other religious functionaries have made several vows (of poverty, chastity, celibacy...) just to display their commitment. I would also assume that vast majority of the Imperial population actually expects this of their priests. So if your parish goes into "temple-whores-and-free-booze" business you might one day wake up to the sound of Adeptus Arbites knocking down your church door and arresting everyone on the suspicion of heretical activities.

Polaria said:

Adeptus Arbites if you are lucky!

"Bishop, these nice gentlemen from the Inquisition would like to have a long chat with you... In private. Shall I hold your calls?"

Hot and cold running booze and whores just reeks of "that unholy hermaphrodite god-thing that shall not be named" and will likely be treated with all due dilligence... Just to be sure!

Polaria said:

I don't think matters of Imperial Creed and the Ecclessearchy are under the Arbiters jurisdiction... unfortunately for those involved, that means it would fall to the Soroitas. They are the IA division of the ecclessearchy after all. ;-)

HI AGAIN!

I've been thinking (wrong wrong wrong ): maybe the priest/esses are celibate because the Godemperor is (more like forced)... They just wanna "immitate Him" & all that jazz.

Lete

LETE said:

Well, for all we know, the Emperor's mind-self could be doing Slaanesh in the Warp as we speak.

Wow, that was an heretical thought...

Graver said:

The Adeptus Arbites are a division of the Adeptus Terra, devoted to enforcing Imperial law throughout the entire Imperium.

Ecclesiarchy (like Inquisition) is not part of Adeptus Terra but they are part of the Imperium and thus fall under the direct jurisdiction of Adeptus Arbites. This has been confirmed by several GW and FFG fluff-sources (In the "Enforcer" novel-series the protagonists spends most of her time investigating Ecclesiarchy and even raids several Ecclesiarchy installations, including an Ecclesiarchy starship). Also, heresy is a crime in Imperial Law and thus falls under the jurisdiction of Adeptus Arbites.

When you think of what Adeptus Arbites can and can't do, think about it like this: They have all the responsibilities and all the jurisdiction of Inquisition... What they don't have is Emperors-permission-for-everything (Rosette) so their hands are more often than not bound by the very laws they are enforcing.

Kyorou said:

Report to the nearest chastiser for your punishment and absolution. Thank you for your cooperation.

Polaria said:

I didn't know that heresy on the whole was an Imperial crime. Dose that come from those books mentioned?

For me, it doesn't seem like it could be, though I can definitely see how it could lead to crime against the Imperium and when that happens, punished by the Arbiters, but not before then. My problem with heresy in relation to the ecclessearchy is that it can vary from world to world, culture to culture, and cult to cult. It has been mentioned several times that heresy is in the eye of the beholder and, as such, can't be a part of the Corpus Presidium Calixis as that must be exact and not open to interpretation (else how would the arbiters be able to uphold it to the letter?). I can see specific examples of heresy (complete with ominous latinesque names) being entered by Judges or named by Drusis because that heresy caused those who thought it to engage in activities that broke Imperial Law or endangered the Calixis Sector (like thinking someone else was even more awesome then the Big E or xenos worship) but they really wouldn't be able to touch most heresy.

So, Arbiters stepping in to decide if having "temple whores" is heresy and what its punishment should be seems too close to them establishing theological precedent. Granted, I can see them investigating to insure an actual crime isn't being committed (spreading of worldly corruption, inciting dereliction of duty, instilling thoughts that the Emperor isn't all that and a bag of chips, etc), but, even though other Minstorium preachers who believe in abstinence and the suffering of the congregation would scream heresy at the sight of such temples, the arbiters would need something more substantial before they can do anything but look -in the Calixis Sector, it would need to be a heresy entered into the Corpus Presidium Calixis. In other words, what is denounced as heresy actually has to lead to or become criminal as heresy in and of it self is far to dependent on the beholder. Anything less or assuming that heresy as a whole is illegal would lead to the laws that the Arbiters uphold being subject to the whims of the Minstorum and what ever Synod is established in what ever region.

I'm not saying all the temple-whores, orgies, rampant drug use and whatnot isn't possible. But the more you read on fluff the less *likely* it just seems to be. Now you can easily imagine a planet where the dominant culture is tolerant of such things and thus no-one will think anything of it. Its a lot harder to imagine it to be a widespread phenomena since the dominant culture in most planets would not support or tolerate it. Introducing such foreign elements of religion would quickly get you the badwill of local governor who can easily set a local law that bans prostitution and/or fornication of all nature and then, if the sect continues to operate publicly, he can trump up charges of "inciting unlawlessness and rebellion".

Inciting rebellion against imperial governor *is* a crime and Adeptus Arbites isn't likely to handle it with kid gloves. The investigation is more likely to be a full-scale raid with hundreds of people thrown into Guantamo Bay and the trials will last a long time. Even if the main priests would be found innocent the cult would still be destroyed and their reputations tarnished for the rest of their lives.

When you read the fluff you quickly find out that several Space Marine chapters have been declared traitor for what seems to be pretty small crimes in Imperium that openly supports fascism, death cults and such... and if you can kick whole armies of Defenders of all Mankind and Sons of Immortal Emperor out with such a small transgression I would not count on the Adeptus Terra or Inquisition to show any more tolerance on a simple ecclisiarchy priest.

Polaria said:

Yes, I definitely agree that the whole temple-***** thing and all that comes with it would definitely be the exception as opposed to the rule, especially in the Calaxis sector. On a reread on the religious climate of the Calaxis sector, it is mentioned that the dominating church is the Scintilian Cult which is described as effectively being a moderate mainstream cult which is a bit too concerned with politics and worldly matters. The second most pervasive Imperial cult in the Calaxis sector is the Drusians, a harsh ascetic faith which endorses a barren life full of suffering and hardship. I don't see this pattern changing over-much in the other sectors around the Imperium. However, it can definitely happen, especially in more isolated areas or on planets where the pervading religion couldn't be stamped out and hand to simply be adopted. Even if missionaries were to pop up preaching and endorsing such practices on mainstream, they very well would be investigated, but if nothing that violates Imperial Law is found, the Arbiters will do nothing and it would be a matter for the Minstorium to deal with how ever they can or would.

However, I'd have to disagree with you on the rebellion side of things. Rebellion is usually only a crime if it affects the planets productivity and, thus, it's tithe. If the rebellion doesn't effect the tithe (or one of the other cardinal Imperial Rules: offer up your tithe in men and/or materials when directed to do so in the amount asked, maintain a standing army capable of defending the world, control your mutant populations and offer up all your psykers to the Black Ships when directed to do so, don't consort with the Enemies of the Emperor) then the Imperium usually doesn't care. All Imperial Laws (barring some exceptions which vary from planet to planet depending on how and why it was brought into the Imperium) revolve around those four mandates and, as such, rebelling against a planetary Governor wouldn't, in and of it self, be an Imperial Crime which means the Arbites wouldn't care. There have been many cases where the rebelling forces have insured that the tithe is produced during the rebellion to make sure they don't attract the ire of the Imperium and sometimes even striking deals with the Administratum for a higher tithe once they are in power to gain some Imperial support in their overthrow of the Governor. If such were an Imperial crime, I doubt the Arbiters would look the other way just so a tithe of 1% higher yield can be squeezed from the planet. The law is the law after all.

Further, if breaking the rules that a planetary governor set up was rebellion and if rebellion was an Imperial crime, then violating any law on any Imperial planet would be an Imperial crime. In that case, there would be no distinction between Imperial Law and local law as all law would be Imperial Law. In that kind of situation, the Arbites would be taken down from their lofty fortresses and neigh untouchable heights and regulated to preforming what would amount to traffic stops in order to insure Imperial Law is enforced.

If you have Ascension, this is briefly touched on on page 151 under "Rebellion" specifically the last sentence of the first paragraph though such is mentioned and scattered about the rest of the books as well.

In the works presented by Dan Abnett specifically focusing on the IG units it is clearly stated in several books that each IG Regiment has its own accompanying support staff and "hangers on" specifically listed in those were the families of the IG members and the whores among others who kept the guardsmen AND women satisfied...ONE thing the battlefield of 40K is NOT is sexist when it comes to throwing meat at the enemy..gender does not play a factor. One of the best fighters in the Tanith First and Only was named Criid ( former ganger from vervundhive ) and Criid was female. Also stated was several female snipers that gave the infamous Mad Larkin a run for his money if not bested him often enough in the shooting dept.