People are still really down on any/all varieties of TIE-Anything Swarms, which restricts Empire and First Order a lot. I continue to not particularly know why (bad? meta matchups? preference?) but it's not like I'm flying them either.

Rebel Falcons are good. People seem up on Rebel "Hyperspace Plus" (hyperspace adding in, like B/A/normal U - Wings), but I dunno what that means for strictly hyperspace X/Y/U, for lists outside of using the Falcon.

Scum got pretty much strictly worse with points changes but it's probably mostly fine. It feels kinda awkward putting the exact mix of hyperspace ships together but they're all good in isolation so I'm sure somebody will figure it out. Does Scum get the Z-95 in a month? Find out next time on Dragonball Z.

Resistance seem to be not particularly far from the threshold of being good in Extended, so they're not in any danger.

11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

To expand on what @Okapi said, the Imperial ships all have major issues working together.

I think the TIE Fighters are priced assuming Howl/Iden support, so more than one or maybe two without Howlrunner and you're just taking bad ships for the points. X1s except for Vader are just awful ships. Reapers are good, but far more skill intensive than most ships. Strikers are okay.

Overall, they have strong choices, but fewer good combinations.

I wish they'd just made the x1 a simple 3-dice ship. Either that, or turned the ATC gimmick entirely on it's head: 2 red dice, but a ship ability like "At the start of the engagement phase, you may acquire a lock on a ship in your firing arc." Amazingly accurate shots, much less dependent on initiative, but also a very low damage output for a 40ish point ship.

10 minutes ago, NilsTillander said:

People mostly flew Boba with Marauder, which also went up!

He is saying that Slave 1 is just as good (maybe even better) than Marauder and very few people seem to realize it

9 hours ago, Deffly said:

If only one list is good in a faction, it doesn't make the faction good. It makes it bad.

If Faction X has the best list in the game, and Factions A, B, and C cannot compete with that list, then Faction X is still the best faction in the game, even if all of their other lists suck. They may be a boring one-trick pony, but they're still the best horse in the race.


I guess it could come down to a matter of subjective preference. Would you rather have a bunch of lists that lose or a single list that wins? From a purely competitive perspective (and that's what the OP is getting at with "best" faction, since he didn't ask for the "most fun" or the "most exciting" faction), boring winning still beats losing, in my opinion. It takes a special kind of mentality to say "you know, this list I'm gonna fly cannot win, but I like it and it's fun to fly, so I'm gonna take a whole day off work and away from my family to drive two hours and spend 12 hours playing 6 rounds of X-Wing that I know I cannot win, so that I can drive two hours back home."

Rebels have the best named pilots out of the factions and, in hyperspace, that makes all the difference. You have Luke, Wedge, Biggs, Thane, Garven, Dutch, Norra, and Lando as your stable of aces. Stick a few of these together and you'll probably have a decent combo.

The interactions of their abilities makes them hit the hardest out of the factions. In addition thanks to Biggs, Selfless, and R2 astros, they have a habit of living for much longer than their statline would suggest.

Rebels have the most survivable, hard hitting aces, and take the #1 spot. Resistance comes in a very close second, but I think they suffer from a lack of damage mitigation as well as noticeably less super efficient pilot abilities.

As for the worst, I still think its Scum; mostly because it feels like they have the most restrictive listbuilding, but don't have a super strong list in that restriction in the way that Empire does with Vader + 4 ties. I don't like how janky they are. They have too many switches and buttons and not enough teeth. It feels like they can do a lot on paper, but on the table, I'm just not seeing the results. I think besides triple bounty hunter, I'd take even FO over scum; at least as far as hyperspace is concerned.

FO is really screwed by the break-points of the half-points rule. Every ship they have has even HP. And the only two that are really worth the cost of a Hull/Shield upgrade are the Upsilon and Quickdraw.

Then you look at Resistance: T-70s (great, odd HP), YT-1300 (not bad, odd HP), StarFortress (pretty good, can easily afford a Hull/Shield upgrade), and A-wings (even HP, but really good and cheap).

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

To expand on what @Okapi said, the Imperial ships all have major issues working together.

I think the TIE Fighters are priced assuming Howl/Iden support, so more than one or maybe two without Howlrunner and you're just taking bad ships for the points. X1s except for Vader are just awful ships. Reapers are good, but far more skill intensive than most ships. Strikers are okay.

Overall, they have strong choices, but fewer good combinations.

Yup. I fly Imperials, and am all in on Strikers and Reapers.

The problem is they are very variance heavy, and only have two agility and four hull. They can reliably take a shot and live, but not two. And not even one from the Upsilon unless they Evade round one.

The Strikers also make great pocket aces. In fact the Empire have a bunch of good pocket aces in the 40-50 point range. But the problem really is that the Resistance and FO are so much better. The 4I5 and Tripsilon lists make a pure Striker swarm obsolete. It can’t hit as hard, has fewer dice mods, and doesn’t survive as well as their offerings. And all the squirrely flying in the world doesn’t help when you get curb stomped turn one by invincible bricks.

The other trouble is double tap Y’s. You can still get 5 of those, which is also the max number of strikers. Not that Strikers can’t win, but they have health, damage potential, offensive mods, and Initiative advantages. Striker swarms can win, it is just a much harder battle than most.

The Reaper is amazing, full stop. It’s a great crew carrier too. But the Empire got hosed by the Hyperspace crew restrictions.

Yeah, I am legitimately peeved about it. It’s garbage they get none of their conversion kit crew while Empire and Scum get most of theirs.

X1’s need a support craft, and the Reaper is a poor fit in that role for them.

the /ln is fine, but is built around the assumption of Howl and Iden being present.

So we have one ship that is high skill, hard to use, particularly weak to variance, and especially weak against other meta staples. One that is a great crew carrier with no crew to carry, one that requires a support it doesn’t have, and one that works fine, but works as either a swarm with a few specific pilots or as singular blockers.

So yay? You’ve got a faction that demands the highest skill demand to reach even average results, and many of your plausible lists get straight hard countered.

3 hours ago, Okapi said:

I wish they'd just made the x1 a simple 3-dice ship. Either that, or turned the ATC gimmick entirely on it's head: 2 red dice, but a ship ability like "At the start of the engagement phase, you may acquire a lock on a ship in your firing arc." Amazingly accurate shots, much less dependent on initiative, but also a very low damage output for a 40ish point ship.

As an aside to the query, I agree with @Okapi , the TIE Advanced either needed their ship ability without a need for a TL (a bit hot maybe) or just a three red dice ship; but that's too easy a fix I guess.

The best faction to me fluctuates between Rebs, resistance and Scum. If I had to give the trophy, I'd say Rebs because of Leah, Lando, C3PO, R2-D2 and Han, which is nice and thematic and all. However, FFG obviously doen't give a rip about thematic as they went anti-thematic with the lack of a 'militarily daunting' powerful Empire, because it's clearly not. The Imps are tied for winner of the toilet seat trophy --with anything not Upsilon-- from the First Order.

Now where's my tea?

How useful is it to ask which faction is the best, anyway? Isn't it much more relevant where different archetypes stand? Maybe I still haven't made the switch to monofaction yet and it's me - but I'm still more interested in certain types of lists than individual factions.

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How useful is it to ask which faction is the best, anyway? Isn't it much more relevant where different archetypes stand? Maybe I still haven't made the switch to monofaction yet and it's me - but I'm still more interested in certain types of lists than individual factions.

All depends really. I’m probably 75% one faction. That faction being Empire. Most of my favorite ships and pilots are in Empire.

So the framing is very much of interest to me, as I strongly feel that the things I want to fly are either inviable or require me to buy a different faction.

Case in point: I could get an archetype I like that is viable if I went Resistance. The RZ-2 is very much my type of thing, and completely competitive. But I don’t fly Resistance, and so the fact that the only faction that can fly the archetype I like is one I won’t play is rather irksome. This is somewhat ameliorated if the Jedi are decent, as I do love the Aethersprite and N-1, and plan o flying both.

But right now the fact is my favorite faction is by far the worst, and the most gimped in Hyperspace (seriously, the crew thing chaps my behind), has turned me from open and interested in the format to actively opposed.

28 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How useful is it to ask which faction is the best, anyway? Isn't it much more relevant where different archetypes stand? Maybe I still haven't made the switch to monofaction yet and it's me - but I'm still more interested in certain types of lists than individual factions.

I second @millertime059 and add some players cannot pony the dough to buy into all the factions and therefore have available all 2.0 squads and goodies to play whatever, whenever. Limited choices suck, but some of us have too make them; me being one.

...but I have my tea regardless.

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

I second @millertime059 and add some players cannot pony the dough to buy into all the factions and therefore have available all 2.0 squads and goodies to play whatever, whenever. Limited choices suck, but some of us have too make them; me being one.

Of course, and I get that part.

I meant more that I'd never select a faction because it is good. I select it based on whether a certain archetype I'm interested in is viable. What does it even mean if a faction is the best? Easy to learn and immediately top notch lists, like maybe Tripsilons?

Empire has great TIE swarms. If that's not your thing then hyperspace empire is currently not for you. First Order has not only Tripsilons, but if it did and you didn't like that list, then that faction was also not for you. Resistance has several great lists of very different type. So chances are that you will find a good list that you like, and that means chances are higher that the faction will be considered "good".

That does not mean that Empire or FO is bad and Resistance is "good" (tm). The in my opinion better question is: which faction has a wide variety of competitively viable lists?

4 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I guess it could come down to a matter of subjective preference. Would you rather have a bunch of lists that lose or a single list that wins? From a purely competitive perspective (and that's what the OP is getting at with "best" faction, since he didn't ask for the "most fun" or the "most exciting" faction), boring winning still beats losing, in my opinion. It takes a special kind of mentality to say "you know, this list I'm gonna fly cannot win, but I like it and it's fun to fly, so I'm gonna take a whole day off work and away from my family to drive two hours and spend 12 hours playing 6 rounds of X-Wing that I know I cannot win, so that I can drive two hours back home."

Hello there! Describes me almost perfectly - I put a limit of 90mins driving each way though!

Most players aren't going to win any event. Most players know that, and so many take the strongest possible list they can...But many others take what they'll have the most fun flying.

1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

So yay? You’ve got a faction that demands the highest skill demand to reach even average results, and many of your plausible lists get straight hard countered.

Agree with everything you said, except for Reapers being a good ship. The dial being terrible, alongside ailerons and a medium base, make it a completely different proposition from the Striker.

The Striker being an average chassis, coupled with 2 bad chassis (Adv and Reaper) mean that Imperials have a swarm or nothing.

Which is disgraceful in comparison to the multiple builds that Rebels or Resistance have.

41 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

Agree with everything you said, except for Reapers being a good ship. The dial being terrible, alongside ailerons and a medium base, make it a completely different proposition from the Striker.

The Striker being an average chassis, coupled with 2 bad chassis (Adv and Reaper) mean that Imperials have a swarm or nothing.

Which is disgraceful in comparison to the multiple builds that Rebels or Resistance have.

It is probably the most agile crew carrier in the game now, since Phantoms lost the slot. It is shockingly fast, and able to readjust positions well. It is unique in how it flies, for sure. But 1sloops on a medium base crew carrier with 3 attack is nothing to sneeze at.

Ive won multiple events in Extended with Reapers. The arguably strongest list I’ve concocted has a Reaper centerpiece. It’s problem is the dearth of Imperial crew. Crew are what make the Reaper sing, and the only one worth a **** is Krennic.

2 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Ive won multiple events in Extended with Reapers. The arguably strongest list I’ve concocted has a Reaper centerpiece. It’s problem is the dearth of Imperial crew. Crew are what make the Reaper sing, and the only one worth a **** is Krennic.

How big were those events?

I have never even considered it for extended as i much prefer the Lambda. So my view of it is for the Hyperspace format only.

I did look at crew options for it and of course Imperial Hyperspace crew options are junk. So completely agree.

Though that will change with the Deci in wave 4. Essentialy Rebels get their wave 4 crew from the Falcon now in wave 2, which is giving them a major leg up.

I think it's a bit early to determine truly what is "worst." It's more of factions that are unknown or undiscovered after this points adjustment since there isn't enough data to make any meta determinations in hyperspace. That does mostly end up being Empire and First Order since most people haven't looked beyond Uuups and likely giving up early on Empire.

13 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

How  big  were those events?

I have never even considered it for extended as i much prefer the Lambda  . So my view of it is for the Hyperspace format only.  

So they have been in the 20 person range. Though with some high quality opponents. My local has people who’ve gone to nationals, and about 5-6 people who went to the Arizona system open, including two who made the cut.

In fact the list I referenced? Had both a Lamba and Reaper. I like both, but they fill very different roles. The Lambda is a true support, the Reaper a VIP carrying brawler. Feroph with Kallus or Death Troopers is a thing of beauty.

1 hour ago, millertime059 said:

It is probably the most agile crew carrier in the game now, since Phantoms lost the slot. It is shockingly fast, and able to readjust positions well. It is unique in how it flies, for sure. But 1sloops on a medium base crew carrier with 3 attack is nothing to sneeze at.

Ive won multiple events in Extended with Reapers. The arguably strongest list I’ve concocted has a Reaper centerpiece. It’s problem is the dearth of Imperial crew. Crew are what make the Reaper sing, and the only one worth a **** is Krennic.

I like Reapers too, and hopefully the crew in the Decimator will be Hyperspace legal and the Reaper can get Vader crew, 000, etc.

Sometimes I wonder how good Reapers are vs how good Vermeil is, though.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Sometimes I wonder how good Reapers are vs how good Vermeil is, though.

That might be the real question. Vermeil is just that good. When people say their flying a reaper, I assume an extremely high percentage of those reapers are Vermeil. Very rarely do I hear "I'm flying reaperS." It's normally just one and that one is Vermeil.

3 minutes ago, RStan said:

That might be the real question. Vermeil is just that good. When people say their flying a reaper, I assume an extremely high percentage of those reapers are Vermeil. Very rarely do I hear "I'm flying reaperS." It's normally just one and that one is Vermeil.

Also helps that i4 is a nice place to be with a decent # of i4 things (mainly Strikers but also Hask/Ved) in Imperials that make the dial overlap more manageable.

Man you all are crazy! Feroph is my preferred. Feroph with Kallus is ridiculously good too.

Honestly I think that Vermiel was clearly the superior 1.0 choice, and Feroph nigh on useless, the truth is Feroph is better I think.

I've only flew Vermiel and I was not impressed with the 2nd ed. reaper, sadly. Loved the 1st ed. version. I'll have to give feroph a try. I was trying out hyperspace lists with it.

11 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

If Faction X has the best list in the game, and Factions A, B, and C cannot compete with that list, then Faction X is still the best faction in the game, even if all of their other lists suck. They may be a boring one-trick pony, but they're still the best horse in the race.


I guess it could come down to a matter of subjective preference. Would you rather have a bunch of lists that lose or a single list that wins? From a purely competitive perspective (and that's what the OP is getting at with "best" faction, since he didn't ask for the "most fun" or the "most exciting" faction), boring winning still beats losing, in my opinion. It takes a special kind of mentality to say "you know, this list I'm gonna fly cannot win, but I like it and it's fun to fly, so I'm gonna take a whole day off work and away from my family to drive two hours and spend 12 hours playing 6 rounds of X-Wing that I know I cannot win, so that I can drive two hours back home."

But it's NOT the best list in the game, it's the best list in a faction that is being hardly flown at all.

People have different preferences and play styles but according to you, anyone who doesn't fly the 'best list' is wasting their time. So your subjective preference example is pointless.

I mean why didn't we see Squad of Legend being flown by every Imperial player in every extend event (before the point change)?

TripUps is like a Gatekeeping list. It's strong against the uninitiated, but anyone who knows about it still have a chance against it. Otherwise every competitive player would be using it and there is zero evidence of that.

It will win events here and there, local metas and Hyperspace Trials, but no event of significance.

Meanwhile the rest of the FO faction will still need help, just because the Hyperspace Tracker upgrade needs changing (made unique IMO).

Maybe I'm just the odd one out here, but why are people afraid of tripsilons? I legitimately thought people were joking with that list. Just trade your non-aces with them and then just use your ace/s to finish off what remains. All you have to do is kill one immediately, which should be easy in two turns with focus fire. From there, all you have to do is get behind the others (disengage if you have to) and ... that's it.

Bring big rocks as well if you do actually fear Upsilons and set up a tight asteroid field. I mean, I'm not trying to be patronizing at all, but it honestly feels absurd that people fear this list; even in hyperspace. It absolutely is a skill check; no doubt. However, it's a skill check on fundamentals like disengaging, target priority, rock selection, range control, and so on.

As such, I don't think they're going to do too well at OP going forward. It's the temporary boogeyman and eventually everyone will figure out the above; the shock factor will dissipate.