3 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

I think this isn't a bad idea, however make it so that it is Impact/2 (rounded up). There would have to be a caveat about units that have Pierce and Impact (like Vader) not getting extra Pierce though. Hmm, the more I think about it this could be abusable with Impact grenades, so maybe not a good answer after all.

Well vader isn't heavy so no worries there. ATM the rule would only apply to T-47s and AT-STs because they are the only ones that are heavy.

6 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Do you want AT-STs ruling the world? This is how you get AT-ST ruling the board. Pierce 3 with that many dice (or 4 if the side gun is added to the dice pool) would be way too terrifying for most units.

Ill run the numbers on my probability calculator (https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/273345-probability-calculator/) and make some pretty pictures. Lets see what it does exactly.

15 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I'll say it again: change the RRG so that Speeder X forces you to do X compulsory moves when you activate. That way the T-47 could be as mobile as it needs to be to get out of dodge and/or have a crazy big threat area. Also it would fly more realistically fast.

I like this a LOT! It's pretty goofy this flyer moves so little on a turn when considering its speed in the movies.

Wpuld greatly help it perform in and out attacks too. Same for bikes.

6 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Do you want AT-STs ruling the world? This is how you get AT-ST ruling the board. Pierce 3 with that many dice (or 4 if the side gun is added to the dice pool) would be way too terrifying for most units.

Ok so!

Case 1: AT-ST V Rebel Troopers with Pierce = Impact
The main gun averages 3 hits without an aim. With pierce 3 that means a trooper unit in the open loses 3 dudes on average. Doesn't even kill the z-6. Cover is reducing hits before pierce even matters so just the main gun into heavy cover averages... 1 Kill! Not overpowered I think. With an aim token thats 4 kills for a unit in the open and 2 kills for heavy cover. BUT the rebels aren't dodging in the above case. A dodging rebel unit still doesn't lose the Z6 out in the open against just the main gun even if it's aiming.

Case 2: AT-ST + Light Blaster V Rebel Troopers with Pierce = Impact
3 of each coloured die, pierce 4 sounds amazing. Lets see what it does. If the troopers are in the open 4 kills or 5-6 with an aim. That feels right to me. An AT-ST shooting both guns at a trooper unit out in the open should hurt, and even then it needs an aim token to average a dead unit. In heavy cover, no aim, the rebel troopers take 2-3 wounds, 4 with the aim, which again feels okay to me. A 5 man squad can survive focused fire from an aiming AT-ST if they are in cover. If they also dodge then they don't even lose the Z6.

Case 3: AT-ST + Grenade Launcher V Rebel Trooper with Pierce = Impact
Defender can't get cover here so we just consider the open cases. Average 4 kills without an aim or 5 kills with the aim (3-4 if defender dodges). Again, incoming fire from both an AT-ST's guns at range 2 or less should kill a unit I feel, and in this case you need the aim to do it if the trooper unit is loaded out with a heavy weapon.

Double check my numbers because I probably mis-clicked somewhere but that seems perfectly reasonable to me both thematically (its the biggest unit in the game) and mechanically (its a 200+ point model).

Just for completion's sake: T-47 into Storms

Main Gun with Pierce = Impact
No aim. No cover: 4 kills. Heavy Cover: 2 kills.
Aim: No cover: 5 kills. Heavy Cover: 3 Kills.

Again, seems fine. Aiming T-47 into dudes in the open should probably finish them off. If they do have cover the DLT won't even die.

8 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Then, by logical extension, Speeder 1 should ignore Cover 1. I could see Speeder X providing Cover X though.

Speeder 2 = reroll 2 armour saves for the speeder maybe?

1 hour ago, Thraug said:

I like this a LOT! It's pretty goofy this flyer moves so little on a turn when considering its speed in the movies.

Wpuld greatly help it perform in and out attacks too. Same for bikes.

The whole thing is just strange. It should have shields or armor that make it pretty much immune to small arms, considering the incoming fire they survived from AT-AT's. It should also be highly mobile in 3 dimensions. Let the points be what they may.

For purely practical out of game reasons, I hate the giant flying stand. I wish it was about 1/2 or less that height and you put a counter next to it indicating what altitude it was currently flying at.

I also think it's weird that repulsorcraft can't stop. Or even slow to a creep. Ever. I would let them slow to a crawl but give all repulsorcraft a sliding scale of free cover that is commensurate with how fast they last moved.

None of that's ever going to happen so how about instead we all swear off this debate until we've played at least 3 games using a T-47 under the new rules.

19 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

None of that's ever going to happen so how about instead we all swear off this debate until we've played at least 3 games using a T-47 under the new rules.

We've got 3 on our side in a 2400 point game on Saturday- I'm hoping the ability to redeploy quickly across an 8-10 foot table will come in useful. Or at the very least the Imperial Stoogetroopers will be too distracted by the shiny zoomy things to focus on our infantry.

@Qark thanks for the maths, looks tasty. I think converting to half pierce rounded up would be better, if these units can actually delete units (not that other weird guys definition) it would be too good.

Gaining pierce 2 on the stock model helps push damage without going overboard

1 hour ago, Katarn said:

We've got 3 on our side in a 2400 point game on Saturday- I'm hoping the ability to redeploy quickly across an 8-10 foot table will come in useful. Or at the very least the Imperial Stoogetroopers will be too distracted by the shiny zoomy things to focus on our infantry.

Now this is another thing I've been mulling over. If Legion wasn't for all practical purposes (even if not theoretically) strictly locked into 800 points, it would be different. In those other games, people are more willing to take the "bad" units in big games because they need to draft their whole collection to play.

1 hour ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

if these units can actually delete units (not that other weird guys definition) it would be too good.

Yeah, so, while logically we feel like vehicles should totally thrash infantry - also I have been thinking I dunno if that "feels" star wars. Like, large combat vehicles can threaten infantry, especially in small numbers, but the scale of ones in Legion mostly just kind of distract or scare off people and only really heavy stuff seems like it slings around a lot invincible killing machine prowess.

I actually now kind of wish the DLT didn't have Impact - because Corps are basically required and it's really efficient anyway, this means one faction has very primo access to minor impact and like, no reason not to take it anyway. If Infantry only had impact through special, conditional equipment (ordnance, basically) and vehicles didn't have much pierce or sharpshooter and had very conditional Blast, we'd have a more "movie-like" experience where vehicles an infantry other than heroes basically don't interact except for maybe a bit of crit fishing from Infantry (or getting in the weak spot) and a little suppression from vehicles unless you get in that sweet-spot where they actually use their specialized tools.

But hey, we're here now, so...

1 hour ago, UnitOmega said:

Yeah, so, while logically we feel like vehicles should totally thrash infantry - also I have been thinking I dunno if that "feels" star wars. Like, large combat vehicles can threaten infantry, especially in small numbers, but the scale of ones in Legion mostly just kind of distract or scare off people and only really heavy stuff seems like it slings around a lot invincible killing machine prowess.

I actually now kind of wish the DLT didn't have Impact - because Corps are basically required and it's really efficient anyway, this means one faction has very primo access to minor impact and like, no reason not to take it anyway. If Infantry only had impact through special, conditional equipment (ordnance, basically) and vehicles didn't have much pierce or sharpshooter and had very conditional Blast, we'd have a more "movie-like" experience where vehicles an infantry other than heroes basically don't interact except for maybe a bit of crit fishing from Infantry (or getting in the weak spot) and a little suppression from vehicles unless you get in that sweet-spot where they actually use their specialized tools.

But hey, we're here now, so...

Yeah, that's actually a good point. The DLT is such a multi tool there's no reason to take the more expensive, specialized tool (HH-12).

I also wish that the HH-12 had Blast vs. Troopers to make it less anti-vehicle specialized

4 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Yeah, so, while logically we feel like vehicles should totally thrash infantry - also I have been thinking I dunno if that "feels" star wars. Like, large combat vehicles can threaten infantry, especially in small numbers, but the scale of ones in Legion mostly just kind of distract or scare off people and only really heavy stuff seems like it slings around a lot invincible killing machine prowess.

The AT-ST in ROTJ was pretty terrifying if it got people in it's sights. And in a mass combat miniature wargame, logic is more important than in other styles of game such as CCG's and the like. We saw very little mass combat in the OT, so it's not necessarily helpful to make a mass combat game, set during the GCW, stick with this particular movie's tone anyways.

Han and a damaged Leia surrendered when they thought an AT-ST had them cornered. That would not occur in a game of Legion the way it's shaping up. They'd just play a Fearless Innovator card or something. So it's not like we're following the movies too close anyhow, it's kind of neither this nor that.

I'll be interested to see if the new vehicles find time in the top places of tournaments.

Maybe clone wars will seek to shake things up.

I think we may be expecting to much of an airspeeder. Its main weapon is two fixed cannons with a fairly low recycle rate- hitting man sized targets at high speed is going to be very difficult compared to hitting a vehicle which its game rules are clearly aimed at. From a verisimilitude point of view it 'shouldn't' be killing an average of 3+ troopers.

When I used to play the Battlefront games I enjoyed using the airspeeder but it was difficult to get more than 3 kills on a given strafing run- and then I'd have to boost out and come around for another pass. I know there's no need to be consistent between the games- I'm just pointing out that there's no in-universe reason for the airspeeder to be cutting down troopers.

Except for that silly scene in The Force Awakens where X Wings drop troopers in cover with single shots. Centre mass. While dogfighting.

I suppose they could have a modification card like the generators on the emplacements to give it antipersonnel blaster weapons. With the way it's built you could even have alternative barrels for the cannons though that's a lot of effort for a comparatively small issue.

3 hours ago, Katarn said:

I suppose they could have a modification card like the generators on the emplacements to give it antipersonnel blaster weapons. With the way it's built you could even have alternative barrels for the cannons though that's a lot of effort for a comparatively small issue.

An upgrade that grants "Suppressive" would be nice. Getting strafed by a T-47 should be at least as damaging as being dive-bombed by a Stuka, so even if you didn't take multiple hits, it should still rattle the unit.

16 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Getting strafed by a T-47 should be at least as damaging as being dive-bombed by a Stuka,

As long as it's a JU 87G without a bomb load. But like you say, it's likely to make people put their heads down.

That said, I always figured the suppression from displacement was replicating this.

The more i think about it, the more i think the size of the play area is a problem with the t-47. I mean the T-47s main strength should be its speed, it should swoop in make a strafing run then clear the area turn around and come repeat. With the relatively small play area the T-47 is forced to circle over enemy troops which is a position that the T-47 doesn't want to be in.

On 2/20/2019 at 7:34 AM, riker2800 said:

I like this proposal, I have played the T-47 a few times and I happen to use often a move action after the compulsory move, which indeed mean Im woul'd have used this action to take an aim, which is required without the surge to hit. Also Wedge could be more useful with its full Pivot when you overpass your target.

So, give it 2 Compulsory moves, Surge to hit and suppressive to the ground buzzer and now we have an effective unit.

Often is hardly the same thing as always, and are those moves you do take always at maximum speed, or do you find yourself often moving less than the full distance?

One issue with many of these suggested changes is a lack of playtesting, since the T-47 doesn't see a ton of play with it's current design, and in more than a few cases players are more interested in playing with the rules as they will be applied in a tournament.

35 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Often is hardly the same thing as always, and are those moves you do take always at maximum speed, or do you find yourself often moving less than the full distance?

One issue with many of these suggested changes is a lack of playtesting, since the T-47 doesn't see a ton of play with it's current design, and in more than a few cases players are more interested in playing with the rules as they will be applied in a tournament.

I have another game this week end, I will play my T-47 again and take note how many time I wish I had 2 free moves.

12 minutes ago, riker2800 said:

I have another game this week end, I will play my T-47 again and take note how many time I wish I had 2 free moves.

Keep in mind that it's not just a free move, but a mandated full speed move that can potentially cause your T-47 to either fly off the board, or take 3 damage (although taking damage is MUCH less likely with the latest set of rules).

30 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Keep in mind that it's not just a free move, but a mandated full speed move that can potentially cause your T-47 to either fly off the board, or take 3 damage (although taking damage is MUCH less likely with the latest set of rules).

Yeah, I have many Armada games under my belt, I will use that mindset!

43 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Keep in mind that it's not just a free move, but a mandated full speed move that can potentially cause your T-47 to either fly off the board, or take 3 damage (although taking damage is MUCH less likely with the latest set of rules).

The two compulsory moves would make one of my standard approaches much more difficult- Close and shoot with my last activation, aim and shoot with the first of the next round. Range 3 means that you cover your own range in a turn unless you do some Armada style horizontal scissors to kill your forward momentum. I'm not against it on that principle but it would get fiddly on a small board.

18 hours ago, Katarn said:

Except for that silly scene in The Force Awakens where X Wings drop troopers in cover with single shots. Centre mass. While dogfighting.

TFA and TLJ aren't canon.