Going to be treating this as one of my go to lists for a bit. One problem, I only get 2 casual games a week and just can't decide which versions of the list to start with. Proper practice is further limited given my Hyperspace list also requires table time... So I need to narrow my options.

Juke Rex is pretty much nailed on. I've considered trimming the 5pts from Juke to something less... But nah.

Which means Echo also gets Juke. Of course. So far, so simple.

These are basically my 2 favourite named pilots and they're awesome, so that's that.

Big fan of the Reaper. Love flying it. Love what it gives Rex with the coord and it can keep up or meet up with him as he boosts into fast moves. Hyper mobility all round is the thing. So that's in.

Although there are plenty of great alternatives if it is not in.....

Choices:

Feroph and Palp. Quite attracted to this. Difficult to work out exactly how it will impact the way the squad will need to be flown, but I tentatively like it. Kinda have this down as one I will definitely try.

SBP with Palp, which opens up the glory of Collision Detector on Echo. It pains me to run her without it. Very concerned this means the Reaper just gets deleted. Which could potentially be used for a tactical advantage.... But also likely not.

Or Afterburners on Echo. Which is also great.

Or drop Palp for an SBP with Tac Officer. Then Echo gets both Burners and Detector, which is super awesome. Rex also gets a tiny bid. But then the Reaper isn't doing a lot, though it could drop Tac Officer and do something with 5pt. Shield Upgrade maybe. Or Krennic, though he always feels like a bit of a faff to me.

Alternatively, Echo can go CD or Burners and 5th Bro. Unconvinced he's worth 9pt on her if she isn't getting shot at. And with all that gear on her, she won't be unless I choose it

Or things I have not considered....

Any thoughts?

Vermeil with Tua leaves you 2 points and now its a feature that the reaper is taking the early flak, while being a dangerous arc to be in as well.

8 minutes ago, Nyxen said:

Vermeil with Tua leaves you 2 points and now its a feature that the reaper is taking the early flak, while being a dangerous arc to be in as well.

An interesting one, cheers.

I like Rex, Echo, and Vermeil, all with Juke. Just totally rip into their tokens and greens

2 hours ago, Greebwahn said:

I like Rex, Echo, and Vermeil, all with Juke. Just totally rip into their tokens and greens

True. I'd honestly forgotten that fits. I guess I'm still partially addicted to the coord

I prefer this build with how you prefer to coordinate and may as well give Echo its greatest maneuver strength (don't ever put afterburners on its a waste for phantoms, especially Echo). I commend you for sticking with defenders, I believe they are over priced (would rather fly a fully loaded Vader for less points and moar crits).

Just to show with Vader: He saves you enough to give you 54 points to spend on the Reaper

I like echo with collision detector too. I think out maneuver works well on her too. If you stick with echo and rexler, and want to be able to coordinate, try throwing in vizier. He is cheaper and makes room for outmaneuver/collision detector and allows a white coordinate after his aileron move. Throw death troopers on to prevent enemies clearing stress near your ships.

Thanks for the replies @Glattyator and @Unit34 .

Good suggestions both.

Re. Afterburners on Echo. I've used them on her in maybe half a dozen games and I have to disagree with you on this point. Phantoms in general, you could well be right, I've no real experience there but they don't appeal to me on them, at least in theory.

On Echo however, her bendy decloaks give her a fabulous range of movement options on a 3 speed manoeuvre. The extra ability to change her facing by 45 degrees afterwards, opens up a whole lot more options the following turn. She obviously thrives on options.

I've seriously not flown with or against a more flexible ship, even Guri. She's been the star of many games for me with either Col Det or Burners. With both, the only thing that holds her back is the lack of a TL action to mitigate the natural dice. It'll take an entire squad to catch her and she'll be shooting the whole time. Without either, she has to sacrifice shots to continue contributing till the end. That they're now 6pts rather than 8, makes them even more viable imo. I've had an overwhelming majority of opponents give up on stopping her than actually managing to finish her. The latter almost always happens when there's no one else left.

It was never worth more than Collision Detector, but I think it's a genuine choice now.

I will concede that you may be a much better player than me and have no need of those extra options to keep her relevant till the end, but I'd not hesitate to recommend trying her with both to a hamfist like me

I will try 5th Bro there at some point. I can see the attraction in him making her more direct and less cagey, which this squad may well need. I've probably been put off by the thought of flying her that way.

In fact, suddenly thinking it'd be better to go that way. I tend to use her as a hyper mobile sniper and Rex as an out and out brawler, but the balance of previous squads was different....

I've genuinely not tried Vader yet... scared of disappointment after being a big 1.0 fan, lol. But I can see that squad doing very nicely, definitely one to consider.

Outmanoeuvre is one I always want to put on Echo, really suits the way I fly her. Only problem is, I seem to face a lot of turrets and rear arcs. Our group has A2Wings, Resistance Bombers, TIE sfs, ARC-170s, a K Wing... Lots of Falcons and Bobas in the store tourneys too.... godammit...

They might have more appealing targets to aim at but they still shut it down. 6pt is a lot for something that may simply not trigger more than a couple times in certain games. It's a meta thing unfortunately. Juke on the other hand, is just always on. Even if I find it the more boring option, lol.

Vizier is a great shout for the coord action. Not managed to wrap my head around him with the stress management yet, so I'll give it a whirl.

Some 'simming' on my table tonight has given me some further thought, in addition to your input. Against I5+ and/or 4 fighter lists, with reposition, things get difficult. Vermeil, 3x Juke and a 4pt bid goes a loooooong way towards evening the odds early on. It's less intriguing for me after that point but it definitely feels like a meta call.

Palpatine doesn't seem like he'll bring enough. It's good, but I need that 3rd gun to really be on in this squad.

Saving Rex for end game and upping Echo's damage output with some more aggressive play.... Perhaps I can make more room for a cheaper, coordinating Vizier, who'll impact early and then get out of the bloody way. Tua, Tac Officer, Feroph is sort of appealing here too.

Then Rex will kill everything. Because that's what he does.

Will try a different version with some extra thinking, during my games tomorrow.

And the simpler bastard that is Vermeil and 3x Juke. If intensity is required.

Thanks for your time

Fair point about outmaneuver and turrets. It is a little pricey and can be shut down pretty easily, especially if your local meta has a lot of turrets.

To be honest I haven't entirely figured out the movement and stress management with reapers either. If you don't want one of the other reapers for their ability, but want a white coordinate, vizier is nice because he saves you points on the pilot and not needing tactics officer. The other bonus is that you get to coordinate between your aileron and movement which means if he is making a faster move that might put him out of coordinate range, he can still give an action.

It's nice to hear someone else enjoy echo. Everyone always talks about whisper but echo has always been my favourite phantom and I don't know why more people don't use her.

13 hours ago, Unit34 said:

To be honest I haven't entirely figured out the movement and stress management with reapers either. If you don't want one of the other reapers for their ability, but want a white coordinate, vizier is nice because he saves you points on the pilot and not needing tactics officer. The other bonus is that you get to coordinate between your aileron and movement which means if he is making a faster move that might put him out of coordinate range, he can still give an action.

I've flown a reasonable amount of Vermeil, with and without Tac Officer, and feel like I've sort of got a handle on how to pace him now, at least, (when I remember forward planning is a thing). Having the choice of red or white coord is neat there, but not essential. Where I do miss it, is on an engagement where I want to throw a friendly out of arc or double mod a Rhymer APT, for eg, and then follow up with a sloop to keep guns blazing. A stressed Reaper is super predictable and its not hard for your opponent to make it irrelevant or dead on subsequent turns.

Vizier obviously has this whole other thing going on, which I'm struggling to turn map with no Tac Officer.

However, tried a couple games on Fly Casual with him + TO last night and tried a few openings on my table with the same. Could be argued that it's a doubling down thing and therefore not maximally efficient, but I really liked the way TO gives him essentially permanent access to coord, in tandem with the Reapers full dial. Coord into sloop etc etc.

That he can also coord on a rock is quite neat too.

47pt for a 3 red die, perma-coord boat with decent health, fantastic mobility and a potentially unavoidable blocker seems good to me.

How long he'll live doing all this stuff is open to question, but 47pt is eminently tradeable.

So I'll be putting The Jukebox and this in my bag tonight.

Rex- Juke.

Echo- Juke, 5th Bro

Vizier- TO.

Plan to keep Viz close to Rex, which will undoubtedly draw the most attention. Echo will go racing up a flank and in early, or she'll tie up opposing flankers. Viz and Rex will slow out and use the roids. Then Viz wll interfere while throwing Rex onto the opposite flank. Ideally, all 3 guns will merge in SURPRISE! fashion at this point. Perhaps with a Viz block and a focus/lock for Rex.

Rex's survival with good health will be the primary defensive goal in the opening stages since the game will probably need to be won attritionally after that. All depending on my opponent of course. We'll see how it shakes out.

Interested to see how this works. I'd never considered Tac officer on Vizier because I'd always viewed him as a budget friendly option for a white coordinate (saving on pilot and on needing TO), but spending the 2 points isn't that pricey to gain a little flexibility if you want to be able to coordinate after moving. Vizier is handy in that you can still coordinate when you dial in a red move like an S-loop because his ability works like an psuedo-advanced sensors for coordinate only. He has that over the other reaper pilots who just lose their actions after a red move. Reapers in general are nice in that they can keep up with Defenders/Phantoms/Interceptors/Strikers past the first two turns.

52 minutes ago, Unit34 said:

Interested to see how this works. I'd never considered Tac officer on Vizier because I'd always viewed him as a budget friendly option for a white coordinate (saving on pilot and on needing TO)....

Actually, you have me there. I assumed Vizier's coord ability was still red. If it isn't, then TO does become a lot more superfluous..... Having a 4pt bid for Rex, rather 2, is likely better value than unlocking the white post move coord.

Edit. In the Official Rules, how did I miss it.... Thanks for the catch, just in time!

I may drop TO after all

5 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Actually, you have me there. I assumed Vizier's coord ability was still red. If it isn't, then TO does become a lot more superfluous..... Having a 4pt bid for Rex, rather 2, is likely better value than unlocking the white post move coord.

Edit. In the Official Rules, how did I miss it.... Thanks for the catch, just in time!

I may drop TO after all

You're not the only one. I completely discounted Vizier at first because I thought it was a red action. When I realized it was white, his value immediately spiked in my eyes.

7 hours ago, Unit34 said:

You're not the only one. I completely discounted Vizier at first because I thought it was a red action. When I realized it was white, his value immediately spiked in my eyes.

It did indeed prove to be a good catch!

My 2nd game tonight was against Tallie, L'ulo, Greer and Poe, dropping Tac Officer was the difference between me having initiative and rolling for it. Being able to give it away kinda saved the game, as I was able to roll Rex out of 2 arcs early on, 1 of which was L'ulo's R1. He still ended up on 2 hull. I really messed up but his dice were awful, couldn't even spend his focus on the attack and 2 defence rolls.... Having survived, he didnt take another hit all game and basically won it with his averaged out reds.

Tac Offcer, I kind of missed it in that game... Vizier died early on in the 1st, so it never came up. But in the 2nd, I had a couple awkward turns where I had to sacrifice his coord and/or position to get back on the stress free coord train. It wouldn't have been worth losing that bid though.

It wasn't exactly a fair test tonight. Both games were pretty sweeping wins, but very mitigated by errors from all of us. The 1st was against FSR with Luke, Biggs, a Selfless Ion Y and a U. The guy is good, but had never used anything like it before and was very unfamiliar with the play. My other opponent had never flown Poe before either, which also proved fairly decisive, although I was properly on the ropes in turns 2-4.

Takeaways. Loved Viziers contribution. Rex and Echo are very capable of taking down entire lists on their own, if they get through the opening exchange largely unhurt and enemy forces have to split. Viziers ongoing and easily accessible coord was crucial in buying Rex that space in both. Echo obviously finds it for herself.

A necessary and willing sacrifice in the 1st game. He got Rex past the initial joust and his death meant my opponent was now unable to focus either of the untouched aces. Which was curtains for him

2nd game, with my opponent basically ignoring him to try and nail Rex and ping Echo, he was a constant, vital cog in swinging the game back my way. His guns didn't do that much, as expected, but jamming him into awkward positions, slooping to keep arc coverage, all whilst donating crucial actions to both Rex and Echo, was massive. Both took a fair beating, finishing the game on 2 hull. Without those extra actions, they'd never have made it, with them they nailed the Resistance to the wall. Viz ended up on half points as well in that one, his decent health enough to handle the pot shots.

I also really liked 5th Bro on Echo. Made a couple bad errors with her, gotten lazy with the Col Det habits. The force bailed her out and gave her extra plays that I've not really considered before. A B-Roll block on L'ulo that allowed Rex to just smash him off the table, (though he did Heroic 3 blanks into 3 more blanks :O) . Her force fuelled shot then killed Poe. Also a K-turn behind the Rebels, the force + evade mods keeping the shot relevant, something I'd punch myself before considering, previously. The eye to crit, rather than hit, conversion pretty much took care of Leia's U Wing as well.

I am a little on the fence as to whether 5th Bro or Col Det will have more mileage but I'm definitely feeling the WORTH IT on the Bro.

One other thing with Vizier, at one point I bemoaned his low Init as not giving me enough board knowledge when I coord.... because I'm an idiot.

Then I promptly boosted Rex into a K-turn out of all but one arc, before the boost was blocked by an an I3 X or Y Wing. Next game, I blocked Tallie by boosting Rex in front of her at I2, then K-turned away and blew her up.

Unfortunately need to shelve this list for the next couple of casual nights, HS tourney approaching and the Fangs will be out. Tourney after is extended.... will be happy to take this version of the list to that. If I do, it'll be in the batreps

Good to hear things worked out. One thing I hadn't even considered using Vizier for is using aces to block and then k-turn behind them. That's a brutal move. Stop their movement, negate their action and then get behind them for your own shot. I'm going to have to try pulling that off. Very cool way of using Vizier to block that allows him to target/block a second ship.

Edit: Something I just noticed that might be fun to add in.... try throwing a jamming beam on Rexler. It costs 0 points now, so it won't affect your points total, but there's the odd time it may help you out. If your enemy gets a lock or has a token for a modded attack on either Rexler or Echo, the jamming beam may be worth using - it'll strip a token from a ship that may otherwise get a modded shot AND it appears to work with Rexler's ability - you don't need to spend any dice results and it doesn't matter to him that the results get cancelled; if your attack hits, you'll be able to prevent a modded shot against one of your ships and you can still flip a damage card. It's situational, but it doesn't cost anything to add in, and Rexler is one of the few places (the only place??) that jamming beam can still result in some damage.

5 hours ago, Unit34 said:

Rexler is one of the few places (the only place??) that jamming beam can still result in some damage.

Great point!

Taking a lock of a torp carrier on the initial engage could also be key. As said, I mostly just want to dodge damage at that point. Rex is pretty good at ignoring unmodded 3 dice attacks but TL + Torps can be an issue.

Poe was carrying one last night actually, never ended up firing it but I was pretty worried he might strip Echo s evade with it.