So I'll often maneuver in such a way that I get extremely close to obstacles, whilst still trying to avoid them. Sometimes I'm less successful than others, but here's my question:

If I move in such a way that my template and ship base do not overlap the obstacle at all, but my final position is directly next to, and touching an obstacle... do I suffer any effects? As far as I can tell, I don't suffer overlapping effects, but if it's an asteroid... I can't shoot, despite the fact that I didn't overlap. Because technically, I am then at range 0.

Has anyone else even had this come up? I think it's only happened once to me, so it's certainly an edge case, but.

Correct. If the trigger is Overlap or Move Through just touching does not trigger it. If the trigger is "at range 0" it does.

Personally, i'd say there's no edge case that can happens here. Either you moved in a way that you ended up on the obstacle, even if it's by a mm, or you didn't. I know that the physical component sometimes makes that hard to accurately determine, but in a perfect, flat, 2D world, like that game is kinda supposed to be, you'd either end up touching or not at all. In that case, it's probably best to discuss with your opponent, and if unable to agree, roll a dice. Unless I am forgetting a case where it can happen that you touch but do not overlap an obstacle?

16 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Personally, i'd say there's no edge case that can happens here. Eithe  r you moved in a way that you ended up on the obstacle, even if it's by a mm, or you didn't. I know that the physical component sometimes makes that hard to accurately determine, but in a perfect, flat, 2D world, like that game is kinda supposed to be, you'd either end up touching or not at all. In that case, it's probably best to discuss with your opponent, and if unable to agree, roll a dice. Unless I  am forgetting a case where it can happen that you touch but do not overlap an obstacle?

I believe it's in the RRG that it states that occasionally you might move a ship in such a way that it ends up physically touching another ship, but you didn't have to move your ship back along the template or anything like that. In such situations you do not lose your action, you can complete a K-turn and flip the ship around, etc. But you're still at range 0.

I had a game where I turned extremely close to an asteroid. Nothing was ever placed down on top of said asteroid, but my ship base was physically touching it after I moved. In the moment, I believe we just called it as having moved through it and overlapped, etc. because I was only reading the "at range 0" bit. What technically should have gone down is that I didn't have to roll for damage or skip my action. If I didn't reposition, I was however out my shot for that round, because physically touching = range 0.

9 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Personally, i'd say there's no edge case that can happens here. Either you moved in a way that you ended up on the obstacle, even if it's by a mm, or you didn't. I know that the physical component sometimes makes that hard to accurately determine, but in a perfect, flat, 2D world, like that game is kinda supposed to be, you'd either end up touching or not at all. In that case, it's probably best to discuss with your opponent, and if unable to agree, roll a dice. Unless I am forgetting a case where it can happen that you touch but do not overlap an obstacle?

the nubs on bases (and bombs) and the templates aren't a perfect match. there is about 1 mm of play. unfortunately, this means you can easily adjust you ship and template to be at range 0 of obstacles, mines, other ships etc., without overlapping them.

now, if someone ends up at range 0 but not overlapping or moving through a mine, i would definitely like to think that the device should detonate, but there is no support for that in the rules. in fact, the mine is not supposed to detonate just because you are at range 0 of it unless you overlap or move through it.

rules reference page 15 under "Range":
"◊ Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at range 0 of another ship (in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it."

so it's definitely possible to fully execute a maneuver and still be at range 0 of another ship, even if it's not a speed 0 maneuver. this means you get your action, but you do not get to shoot the ship you're at range 0 of.

i'm sorry, but the perfect, flat, 2D world that you are referring to, is not that accurate.

if there is a disagreement, rolling dice is certainly a good way to go about it. in any case, if a player intentionally or unintentionally moves and obstacle, mine or other ship while moving one of his or her own ships, that ship should be considered to have overlapped it if you're not sure. you have to be careful while playing. it's a bit like surgery sometimes. especially when you're helping each other out by holding stuff still, measuring and moving. it's part of the charm of the game as a whole. sloppy play is a menace and should be discouraged.

47 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

Personally, i'd say there's no edge case that can happens here. Either you moved in a way that you ended up on the obstacle, even if it's by a mm, or you didn't. I know that the physical component sometimes makes that hard to accurately determine, but in a perfect, flat, 2D world, like that game is kinda supposed to be, you'd either end up touching or not at all. In that case, it's probably best to discuss with your opponent, and if unable to agree, roll a dice. Unless I am forgetting a case where it can happen that you touch but do not overlap an obstacle?

In fact in a perfect 2d world you could clearly end up touching and not overlapping. In 2d games, you could clearly end up with each ship corner being exactly the pixel next to each other, with no "pixel" in between, you would then be seen as touching.

And in the real world, then you will never be touching, because even when you place ship so they seems to be touching, their material molecules are probably still far from touching each other. And then we get back to the definition of the first edition that was causing confusion...

Range 0 is different if one of the objects is an obstacle.

RRG, page 15:

Quote

◊ An object is at range 0 of an obstacle or device if it is physically on top of it.

◊ A ship is at range 0 of another ship if it is physically touching another ship.

touching an obstacle is not range 0 of an obstacle.

32 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Range 0 is different if one of the objects is an obstacle.

RRG, page 15:

touching an obstacle is not range 0 of an obstacle.

Eeeey I like you

From the bullet point the bits you quoted are sub points of:

"Range 0 does not appear on the range ruler, but is used for describing the
range of objects that are physically touching."

Their "clarification" points are interestingly contradictory to this...

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

From the bullet point the bits you quoted are sub points of:

"Range 0 does not appear on the range ruler, but is used for describing the
range of objects that are physically touching."

Their "clarification" points are interestingly contradictory to this...

I believe that is what they call “an exception”.

25 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I believe that is what they call “an exception”.

It isn't worded as such.

On 2/20/2019 at 5:29 PM, DarthSempai said:

Personally, i'd say there's no edge case that can happens here. Either you moved in a way that you ended up on the obstacle, even if it's by a mm, or you didn't. I know that the physical component sometimes makes that hard to accurately determine, but in a perfect, flat, 2D world, like that game is kinda supposed to be, you'd either end up touching or not at all. In that case, it's probably best to discuss with your opponent, and if unable to agree, roll a dice. Unless I am forgetting a case where it can happen that you touch but do not overlap an obstacle?

Even in a perfect 2D world its easy to engineer a case where you end up touching an obstacle but not overlapping it.

Resistance han deploys touching an asteroid, then does a sloop one way, then banks back to his original position.

On 2/20/2019 at 1:37 PM, Tvboy said:

I believe that is what they call “an exception”.

So...what is the range to an obstacle you're touching but not overlapping? Is it 0? 1? Undefined?

If you are touching, it's range 0. You suffer no effects because you didn't overlap. But in the rule it does state that if you are range 0 of an Asteroid, you can not shoot. Look In the rules under obstacles.

While a ship is at range 0 of an obstacle it may suffer different effects.
• Asteroid: The ship cannot perform attacks.

Page 13

I know this isn't fully related, but has FFG ever made it clear that you do or don't suffer the effects of obstacles you touch/overlap during Place Forces? Boba Crew and Lieutenant Dormitz make this an important question. My assumption is no, but I worry the answer might be yes.

It's never come up for me personally, but someone asked on the wiki and I don't know how to answer.

As for touching but not overlapping an asteroid... we should ask FFG... that seems like something that could end up mattering a lot in tournaments, and it's important to have a clear answer.

I or my opponent will "touch" but not overlap an asteroid at least once every time I go out to play x-wing, and I'd like to know the exact way to rule that, especially if I end up TOing an upcoming competition (Intermountain Cup, Campaign Against Cancer, etc). For what it's worth, I've always ruled that if your base didn't sit on top of the asteroid (it was able to drop flush with the table), it just touched the side, then you're safe from all of its effects.

Well... if you're touching, you're at range 0, so if it's an asteroid, you can't attack.

2 hours ago, Wazat said:

I know this isn't fully related, but has FFG ever made it clear that you do or don't suffer the effects of obstacles you touch/overlap during Place Forces? Boba Crew and Lieutenant Dormitz make this an important question. My assumption is no, but I worry the answer might be yes.

It's never come up for me personally, but someone asked on the wiki and I don't know how to answer.

As for touching but not overlapping an asteroid... we should ask FFG... that seems like something that could end up mattering a lot in tournaments, and it's important to have a clear answer.

I or my opponent will "touch" but not overlap an asteroid at least once every time I go out to play x-wing, and I'd like to know the exact way to rule that, especially if I end up TOing an upcoming competition (Intermountain Cup, Campaign Against Cancer, etc). For what it's worth, I've always ruled that if your base didn't sit on top of the asteroid (it was able to drop flush with the table), it just touched the side, then you're safe from all of its effects.

yes, it's in the rules reference on page 13 under "Obstacles". you only suffer the effects of obstacles if you move over them. the only effect you suffer from obstacles while you're at range 0 of them is from asteroids. you cannot perform attacks while you are at range 0 of an asteroid.

i'll agree it's not entirely clear what happens if you're touching an obstacle without overlapping it. fortunately, it's not very common, but it still happens.

it was discussed briefly earlier in this thread. this is from page 15 under "Range":

• Range 0 does not appear on the range ruler, but is used for describing the range of objects that are physically touching.
◊ After a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is at range 0 of the last ship it overlapped.
◊ An object is at range 0 of an obstacle or device if it is physically on top of it.
◊ A ship is at range 0 of another ship if it is physically touching another ship.
◊ If two ships are at range 0 of each other, they remain at range 0 until one of the ships moves in a way that results in their bases no longer being in physical contact.
◊ Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at range 0 of another ship (in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it.

this poses some practical problems in the case of physically touching while not overlapping an obstacle (that's without moving the obstacle around, mind you, no ******* sloppy play on my watch, please). how can it be proven you're actually physically touching or not, if you're not overlapping? a microscope? trying to fit a hair between your ships base and the obstacle? does the second point in the paragraph ("◊ An object is at range 0 of an obstacle or device if it is physically on top of it.") mean that you cannot actually be at range 0 of and obstacle unless you're physically on top of it (overlapping)?

i mean, in the case of asteroids, this is very relevant, since being able to attack or not is extremely critical to the game state in a lot of scenarios. i've asked a few people (unfortunately, not very many people are that interested in discussing rules) - and they seem to agree, if you ship is not overlapping and obstacle, you're not at range 0 of it, even if it looks like you're touching it. or in other words, if the ship fits, there is space and you're not touching. even if said space is so tiny you cannot really see it. i think i'll be going with this from now on. seems simpler that way.

i would like this further clarified from FFG, though, so as to avoid confusion. there are a lot of very thin margins in this game - and it's best to avoid heated discussions over them when playing games. especially in a tournament setting.

An object is at range 0   of an obstacle      or device if it is         physically  on  top of  it.   

I agree, this statement needs clarified. It seem it is only defining when an object is physically on top.

If the words "only on top" was used, then it would be better described if that is their intent.

Do or do not. There is no trying!

I play it like this: I place the template/ship a bit away from it’s final position - and then slide it into place.

Either it fits clearly without touching anything — but if you (even barely aka one molecule) touch another ship/obstacle it’s overlapping. A good indicator is if you move the other ship/obstacle.

TL:DR

—> there are no edge cases!

Use the wiggling and the fact that the nubs are 1mm are too far away to prevent edgy cases. If you wiggle in the wrong direction — overlap an no talking out of it.

7 hours ago, Tellonius said:

Either it fits clearly without touching anything — but if you (even barely aka one molecule) touch another ship/obstacle it’s overlapping. A good indicator is if you move the other ship/obstacle.

" Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at range 0 of another ship (in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it.  " - Rules Reference Page 15 under Range.