1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

As I said before, those kits from GW are among their older offerings (early 2000's).

Except the push-fit starter box versions of things, the multiple kits I found in their online store right now for two of the same hero, etc. A terminator librarian being played as one in power armor is a no-no. But you can use a [faux-Latin word] Librarian in power armor as a different [faux-Latin] Librarian in power armor and always could. Also, you can straight up paint imperial guardsmen in the colors of a chaos army and use them as cultists. This is tournament legal. You can paint a space marine special character captain up as a generic commander or as a veteran sarge, as long as he's carrying weapons that are available to that generic character. Heck if you're poor, there's nothing illegal about buying a box of tactical marines and making a bunch of "heroes" out of the models and going to tourneys. Paint a guy white with a medic symbol on his shoulderpad, paint a sergeant gold and use him as a Blood Angels captain, give a guy a piece of wire to hold a paper flag and you've got an army standard bearer, etc.

Plus historicals.

Plus a myriad of small producers like Mirliton, EM4, Copplestone, Eureka, and others. Some are tied to games, some aren't.

In RPG's pretty much anything goes.

FFG uses assigning wholly different stats to a man's wardrobe as a marketing tool but not everyone.

1 minute ago, TauntaunScout said:

Except the push-fit starter box versions of things, the multiple kits I found in their online store right now for two of the same hero, etc. A terminator librarian being played] in power armor is a no-no but you can use a [faux-Latin word] Librarian in power armor as a different faux-Latin] Librarian and always could. Also, you can straight up paint imperial guardsmen in the colors of a chaos army and use them as cultists. This is tournament legal.

Plus historicals.

Plus a myriad of small producers like Mirliton, EM4, Copplestone, Eureka, and others. Some are tied to games, some aren't.

FFG uses assigning wholly different stats to a man's wardrobe as a marketing tool but not everyone.

I'm definitely rolling black dice instead of white dice when I'm wearing my sweet suede jacket.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Except the push-fit starter box versions of things, the multiple kits I found in their online store right now for two of the same hero, etc. A terminator librarian being played as one in power armor is a no-no. But you can use a [faux-Latin word] Librarian in power armor as a different [faux-Latin] Librarian in power armor and always could. Also, you can straight up paint imperial guardsmen in the colors of a chaos army and use them as cultists. This is tournament legal. You can paint a space marine special character captain up as a generic commander or as a veteran sarge, as long as he's carrying weapons that are available to that generic character.

Plus historicals.

Plus a myriad of small producers like Mirliton, EM4, Copplestone, Eureka, and others. Some are tied to games, some aren't.

FFG uses assigning wholly different stats to a man's wardrobe as a marketing tool but not everyone.

Using your Librarian example there are two unnamed "normal" Librarian models, one single pose plastic, and one single pose resin, each of which have a single specific loadout. Using "Primaris" models to stand in for normal marines is (as far as I understand it) is a no-no, since the Primaris have a different statline than "normal" marines. As for Captains, there is one plastic power army Captain model that isn't a "named" character. If you want anything other than the kit that is sold, you have to convert your own. Painting up a special character as a veteran or generic is the same as painting up Leia as a unit commander for Fleet troopers, or to use in place of the Generic Officer, something that (in casual play at least) you can do now with the models provided. The only real analogue to releasing say a new kit of say "Snowtroopers" in Stormtrooper armour, or Rebel Troopers in Hoth uniform is the Imperial Guard kits which are two kits representing exactly the same unit (now) but which are a remnant of when the Catchans had their own codex separate to the Guard Codex (3rd edition). The more recent GW releases (Primaris marines, Stormcast eternals, Flesh Eater Courts, etc) they market and sell a single kit to represent a specific unit. Even if you are free to modify an existing model to represent a different unit, they don't SELL you a kit to do so.

With Historics, some games care about what specific weapon a model is holding, sometimes even down to the model of rifle being held, other don't. In the general case, if the model is holding an SMG, then they aren't holding a rifle. If the model is wearing plate mail, then it should be used for a stat line that represents that plate mail, and a mounted unit must be represented as cavalry. The appearance often does matter, sometimes to the extent of "If the model of your Sherman has a cast hull then it must be fielded as an M4A1 Sherman," but those games frequently don't take off because of the restrictive nature.

I've named at least as many companies that DO assign statlines specific to the appearance of the model, so there isn't one unified standard in this matter. Almost all of the popular games in my area are WYSIWYG, some to the extent of specific models in specific poses for official events. I know for Warmahordes, for example, different poses of a named character have vastly different stats, so which "Jane Smith" model you put on the table had to match the "Jane Smith" statline you were using. For Legion, Stormtroopers have a different statline than Snowtroopers, since Snowtrooper armour represents the unit having Steady, while Stormtroopers have Precise. The same as the Terminator Librarian has X statline while the Power Armour Librarian has Y Statline.

Do I agree that this should be the case? Not necessarily, but for better or worse this is the design FFG has taken for Legion, the models DO matter for determining units (at least in official play). Whether this is due to the license holder, or manufacturing restrictions, or whatever else that is what they have (so far) chosen to do. Where I disagree is that there is any unified "standard" for miniature wargames as far as offering different sculpts to be used to represent the same units.

8 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Using your Librarian example there are two unnamed "normal" Librarian models, one single pose plastic, and one single pose resin, each of which have a single specific loadout. Using "Primaris" models to stand in for normal marines is (as far as I understand it) is a no-no, since the Primaris have a different statline than "normal" marines. As for Captains, there is one plastic power army Captain model that isn't a "named" character. If you want anything other than the kit that is sold, you have to convert your own. Painting up a special character as a veteran or generic is the same as painting up Leia as a unit commander for Fleet troopers, or to use in place of the Generic Officer, something that (in casual play at least) you can do now with the models provided. The only real analogue to releasing say a new kit of say "Snowtroopers" in Stormtrooper armour, or Rebel Troopers in Hoth uniform is the Imperial Guard kits which are two kits representing exactly the same unit (now) but which are a remnant of when the Catchans had their own codex separate to the Guard Codex (3rd edition). The more recent GW releases (Primaris marines, Stormcast eternals, Flesh Eater Courts, etc) they market and sell a single kit to represent a specific unit. Even if you are free to modify an existing model to represent a different unit, they don't SELL you a kit to do so.

Being as that I played imperial guard and space marines among other 40k factions from 2nd edition to present, I can say that's not correct regarding the timeline of plastic Catachans etc.

They don't sell you a kit to do some of the things I mentioned (presently) but it's tournament legal to do so, unlike in Legion.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Being as that I played imperial guard and space marines among other 40k factions from 2nd edition to present, I can say that's not correct regarding the timeline of plastic Catachans etc.

They don't sell you a kit to do some of the things I mentioned (presently) but it's tournament legal to do so, unlike in Legion.

The Catachan sprues are from 1998. I do agree after researching that they came before the separate codex, but the fact that they are still offered and still tourney legal has more to do with GW wanting to continue to make money on an already existing product that has already returned the initial investment. The old, out of print models still being legal keeps players who already have armies using those models playing and buying new rulebooks.

It's not tournament legal in Warmahordes, Guildball, or Infinity to use any model other than the one specifically released for that unit, not do those companies (typically) release more than one kit for that unit. Other companies do. There is no single standard.

As for Legion, the tournament standards are vague at best. "Significant confusion" is a nothing term, which can only be defined by TOs. Does modifying a Bistan mini to hold a Z-6 cause significant confusion and using it to represent that upgrade? Does using models of Snowtroopers modified to hold a DTL to represent "Winter Stormtroopers" create significant confusion while on a table next to a unit of Snowtroopers with a Flamethrower? How about an unit consisting of Snowtrooper models in the same army with no Heavy weapons?

Depends on who you ask

4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

TDoes using models of Snowtroopers modified to hold a DTL to represent "Winter Stormtroopers" create significant confusion while on a table next to a unit of Snowtroopers with a Flamethrower?

Let's get my x-acto knife and drop a bunch of cash and FIND OUT!!!!!

36 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It's not tournament legal in Warmahordes, Guildball, or Infinity to use any model other than the one specifically released for that unit, not do those companies (typically) release more than one kit for that unit.

Those are all games that had the luxury of developing in a vacuum which is a huge part of that. Course it's also kept me from playing them. If I can't have generic warcasters I'm out of Warmahordes.

12 hours ago, Winged Gundark said:

I would probably just make an extra heavy for a few of the units. Maybe a light DLT for the scouts or a grenade launcher for storm troopers. That way you won't have units with snow gear in a scout unit.

They would need to be priced differently than the original units of course, since part of the cost is the basic trooper value (Stormtroopers are worth 11, Snowtroopers 12, etc);

It would also be hairy to balance in that it breaks the hard caps on certain types of heavies (6 corps max, 3 Special Forces max) and the requirement to bring that specific type of unit with its specific unit card bonuses (ie Precise on Stormtroopers is a very different animal from Steady, or Sharpshooter)

10 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The Catachan sprues are from 1998. I do agree after researching that they came before the separate codex, but the fact that they are still offered and still tourney legal has more to do with GW wanting to continue to make money on an already existing product that has already returned the initial investment. The old, out of print models still being legal keeps players who already have armies using those models playing and buying new rulebooks.

It's not tournament legal in Warmahordes, Guildball, or Infinity to use any model other than the one specifically released for that unit, not do those companies (typically) release more than one kit for that unit. Other companies do. There is no single standard.

Actually, Infinity does produce several models for one unit with different weapon loadouts.

2 hours ago, costi said:

Actually, Infinity does produce several models for one unit with different weapon loadouts.

Is it one model per load out? I.e. one model for SMG, one for rifle?

Card packs from ffg?

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Is it one model per load out? I.e. one model for SMG, one for rifle?

Kinda depends on the unit - for Line Infantry, there's usually 2-3 models with basic weapons and one each for the special models (heavy weapons, hackers). For others, there may be 1-2 generic models (basic weapon, or just sidearm) plus at least some heavy weapons.

Some options, like paramedics or forward observers, don't have dedicated models, and the generic ones should be used to represent them.