2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Regarding Jedi (and the common misconception that Force User = Jedi), that can be laid at the feet of West End Games, who (based on what little lore there was at them time) simply used the word "Jedi" as shorthand for "person that knows how to use the Force." It wasn't until years later that the concept of Force adepts, much less the Sith as an actual Force-wielding tradition, came into being, but that point the damage had largely been done. Of course, saying Jedi as opposed to Force user is faster and easier to say/type, which is why you see it cropping up amongst players that have never so much as looked at the d6 system, to say nothing of the films' and (earlier) books' obsessions with Jedi being the big focus where Force users are concerned.

I remember WEG had the Revwien Tyia adept as a character template. Do you remember if that was only in the later editions? I'm curious if the WEG writers came up with the Force adept concept first, or if they borrowed it from the Expanded Universe novels of the time, which had Luke flying all over the galaxy seeking out Force-sensitives.

4 hours ago, SavageBob said:

I remember WEG had the Revwien Tyia adept as a character template. Do you remember if that was only in the later editions? I'm curious if the WEG writers came up with the Force adept concept first, or if they borrowed it from the Expanded Universe novels of the time, which had Luke flying all over the galaxy seeking out Force-sensitives.

No, it was also in First Edition as well.

4 hours ago, SavageBob said:

I remember WEG had the Revwien Tyia adept as a character template. Do you remember if that was only in the later editions? I'm curious if the WEG writers came up with the Force adept concept first, or if they borrowed it from the Expanded Universe novels of the time, which had Luke flying all over the galaxy seeking out Force-sensitives.

That one showed up in 2e as a template, with very little in the way of background material. So it pre-dated the Legends books covering Luke's travels. 1e did have the Alien Student of the Force, but again it was such a minor thing (and had no background data beyond "you're a weird species that nobody knows about, and you're looking to learn from the Jedi about your weird powers that other people call the Force"). About their only real perk was starting out with all three Force skills, compared to the Minor Jedi and Failed Jedi who only got 1 or 2 Force skills (respectively) but got a lightsaber as the trade-off.

But when the rulebooks themselves kept using "Jedi" whenever talking about folks that can use the Force, those templates tended to fall by the wayside forgotten. Especially given the power/coolness factor that comes with having a lightsaber.

On 2/16/2019 at 8:10 PM, Sincereagape said:

I encounter it very often.

Players and friends who hate Jedi.

A friend back in VA mentions celebrating clone troopers because they shot Jedi in the back in Order 66.

A new perspective player for my new table top game. “Yea. I like playing man-T-arms Jedi killing super soldier.”

My old table from 2018, in the current game the two altruistic padwan force users are not revealing the location of the Warden holocron from Lure of the Lost to prevent the fallen Jedi Rav Naaran from locating it. The older players comprised of a sharpshooter, ace pilot, medic, and sabeotour are pissed at them. The sharpshooter player even before hand stated “I hate force users. I hate Jedi.”

I don’t get it. Why the hate for force users? Why the hate for Jedi?

is it the “Jon Cena” affect? Do they always win? Are they the focus of every story? Are they to powerful?

Personally, I play non force users ;except for a blaster Jedi idea) because I have always enjoyed playing ‘gimped characters’ and enjoy non force users overall in Star Wars.

Feel free to discuss. I’m curious as to why people and fans hate Jedi/force users.

I can kind of understand this perspective really, my D20 days really hardened my anti-force sensitive mentality. From the 3 old sith bastards to a Jedi who constantly horded information and didn't share any information he learnt further down the chain. That campaign made me resent star wars for a very long time and I ended up abstaining from at least half of the sessions until we had moved on to a new campaign. I can summarise it down to three points.

1) Paladins in outer space: Jedi generally suffer from being the moral compass, just having one in the party puts pressure on the party to behave a particular way. When executed wrongly it's an anchor rather then a opportunity to develop new roleplaying opportunities, rather then an opportunity for co-existence. I find this pretty rare as morality makes it pretty hard to fall.

2) Pretty uninteresting backstories: We once had a meme of being a force character literally meant "Temple Temple Temple." Started in temple, got a education in temple, and only left the temple to adventure or after great tragedy. If done poorly, a Jedi is just a wandering hobo who hoovers up artefacts and is as interesting as a eastern monk's motives for beating a guy with a whispy beard with Asian magic, who try to avenge their dead master by improving their Asian magic by... moving like a lady? The issue is most people in the "after 66" stories don't let the characters evolve from just being Jedi, they just be Jedi somewhere else despite the oblivious fact that the Empire is actively hunting for them. A truly compelling tale would either centre around someone discovering their powers and putting their own spin on it, or being a survivor who has shed their identity of the old days and is just surviving, so much so that the day they actually pull out their blade out of the blue should be a "wow, this just got real" situation rather then "hang on, have I heard this story like twelve times before?"

In short, being a force sensitive, chosen by destiny could be an incredible story, so I feel it's utterly wasted to be just another old Jedi who is wise, old and has a mystical weapon like countless others, or a kid who has no disenable occupation aside from being a Jedi. How have you survived up to now? I feel many characters could just feel a little more interesting by at least trying to blend into the setting like the person in hiding that they usually are.

3) Force wizards: This is one of my pet hates that I haven't fixed over the years. I haven't seen anything in star wars media as a whole that supports force wizards. People that fling lightning like an every day occurance or can throw people to extreme range high in the sky to end encounters in the easiest way possible fits my bill of this particular archetype, force wizards generally don't like subtle talents like influence or battle meditation, they just want their power to be felt immediately and constantly. Might be just personal experience, but they generally only develop in order to just to demonstrate, session after session their "amazing power" in increasingly crude , blunt turma ways. I've endured 7 characters of this nature across 10 years and only once, that I felt I was dealing with a deeply intelligent being rather then a tempest. so yeah, I feel that I am pretty justified in my bias to the extent of preference of garden variety Jedi to this archetype of character.

Needless to say when I refer to Jedi of this category, it isn't so much the context of the title "Jedi" that annoys me, I just dislike this particular archtype of character

about 3 and a half force sensitive characters, myself included. Part of the reason this works however is that most of us do not fit the definition of Jedi. A gunslinger emergent with a shady history that seems to know just a little too much about what's going on, an ex commando who received training and has self stylised one's self as a warlord to taunt the inquistion, a Gand Find'sman who doesn't believe in the force and a guy who has literally only just discovered the force. With two non-force sensitives with their own struggles makes it a much more interesting party then the sum of it's parts.

So part of the issue I feel is just a "Jedi burnout", Over saturation can be an insidious killer when all we really wanted was the setting to evolve, rather then endlessly repeating those same old beats of 4-6's Jedi story. Luke's struggle to be a Jedi was a fairly integral part to the OT, yet it had several fairly strong story threads and played just one role within the narrative. The Jedi were designed fundamentally to fail in the PT which I full heartedly approved of; they are apathic to the point of inaction and failed in their duty to ensure that Republic was managing itself fairly, allowed corruption to flourish and generally was disinterested in doing the right thing; just the easy thing of isolation a so that they can focus on their duty of knowledge hording. To put it simply, most star wars book, movie and such, with the exception of R1 (which I didn't really like. I felt it's core story was boring and cichie, despite some interesting characters. It's most interesting moments was the historical events leading up to Episode 4) and Solo (which I deeply enjoyed.) is focused heavily on the Jedi and not the people. I just feel if there was less stories that had a central focus about the Jedi and more on the world building that Luca's clearly enjoyed a great deal more then anything in his setting? I feel the problem would be less strongly felt.

So what could be done to make them more interesting? Well, I'll probably muse on that overnight. I really need some sleep and this post has been sitting here for quite a while. Might as well put it up so someone else can chew the fat. Heheh

I haven't played a force sensitive in quite a while, but with being new to FFG's version I thought I would try one.

Here's the background of my current character.

Born on Arkania during the clone wars.
First in class growing up, constantly skipping ahead.
Quickly mastered medicine and genetic engineering.
At the age of eleven did a science project and genetically altered his hair to have a light blue streak. (Was reprimanded for making himself the test subject)
Graduated from the science academy early as valedictorian, age thirteen.
Immedialy offered a position with a presitgious genetics research facility.
Had a desire to help people more directly so works part time at a hospial.
Also has found a knack for tinkering and computers and dabbles in both as hobbies.
Has been working professionally now for six years.
Married at seventeen. Child a year later.

While focusing on a genetic puzzle to cure a disease, needed a datapad from across the room. When he went to get up to go get it, found it floating in the air next tim him.
Once distracted by the floating pad, it then fell to the floor. Initially thinking it was a joke, but no one was around.
Another time, in the emergency room, a patient was having trouble breathing from an accident. While waiting for a bioscanner, in a moment of focus he could sense that there was a punctured lung and proceeded to treat successfully.
Researching into these occurances he discoveered he had sensitivity to the force, something that was considered fiction in scientific circles.
Discovering more history in the archives of an old library found a locked archive that had a holocron.
Found even more information slicing a computer or two and found out there used to be organizations of force users and the empire eliminated them.
Computer hacking detected and fled the planet rather than face the empire.
Vowed to study this power and discover more about the force and to continue to help people where he can.
Currently 4 BBY, out of money, and stuck on Tatooine for the last year living in Mos Espa taking misc jobs working on comps/mech/Med for the people there but making just enough to get by. Frustrated at the lack of progress.

We're currently 300ish xp in, doing jobs for Teemo in Mos Shuuta and around Tatooine. Every so often I would get a strange feeling but not be able to track it down.

Finally figured out the source and after many interactions, convinced a blind and lame padawan that survived 66 that sits around town carving wood to teach me sense.

I have never quite understood the hate for jedi either, or the love of sith characters. Most people I run into just want to play the "bad guy" in everything. Even if they are non-force users I see more people wanting to play an imperial or a unlawful thug than I do other things, but as far as my own jedi character I have always preferred the more "practical force user" side of character. The guy that wants to do the right thing, but also typically has some other form of practical skill. The Force-using character I have made most recently is a Sentinel Artisan that is a computers expert and mechanic first and force-user second. I made him a Muun with the idea that he comes from a wealthy family that simply ignored and hid his force using potential and instead of grooming him for a life of business they made sure to encourage his education in things that would be useful in the modern galaxy, like engineering and mechanics, but would obviously keep him away from the lime light.. He struggles to do the right thing simply because it is the right thing as he has his own strong sense of right and wrong, but would sometimes rather one of the easier more straight forward ways be the right way. I always find that people in general WANT to do the right thing, but can sometimes not be bothered in certain situations so I do not see why my character would be any different. His force abilities are mostly secondary, and that I think needs to be remembered, a character is who they are and why they do things not necessarily WHAT they CAN do, but rather what they CHOOSE to do and why they choose to do it.

I'm going to break my silence and lurking to actually post for once as a long suffering player. One who'd love for the common masses of the universe to unite and kill all force users as the threat to galactic peace they all are! Jedi, sith wars... who needs em! Power mad Mary Sues with plot protection.

Ask the GM what the going imperial bounty is for "jedi" if you really want to have some fun with your group, especially in an edge campaign.

1. Force users are inherently unbalanced.

I've not seen any game system to date in which force users aren't PC's only better. ESPECIALLY FFG's. It hasn't injected all the EU comic book stuff like walking through walls, or force jumping across the universe instead of a hyperdrive. Which essentially changed jedi from being the 'psychics/physical adepts' pictured in the movies into all capable space wizards. But it's continued the trend of force users are like PC's, only better. But given stuff like what happened in the last movie... how much longer will that last with Luke astrally projecting himself across the galaxy.

A force user in FFG has access to all classes/abilities/trees but also has the option of investing in force powers. And those force powers are relatively cheap in cost. And there's a final proof to this as well, A normal PC caps out at attribute plus 5 skill... a force user can keep adding more force dice to many rolls blowing away the limits imposed on the unblessed. So while a force user diversifiies his character picking up supposedly different classes instead of hyperspecializing, he still advances everything affected by the force everytime his force rating goes up. When he picks up a new force skill.. it may be instantly potent if his force rating is high... despite his lack of experience with that talent.

Force powers like ebb/flow make the force user just like a basic PC... only better all for the low low cost of 20 xp or so. Yeah I was making a gunslinger PC... then I added the force... now he can bank extra advantages/successes/recover strain... just by rolling extra white dice whenever he does anything he'd normally do.

Want to make a technician... artisan can add two HP to anything he touches, while other options have to limit themselves to a single signature vehicle, or only add 1 HP to a bare handful of items that must be kept in their possession. Manipulation and add force dice to all mechanics checks with the option to turn them into either success or advantage as needed. No need for tools even! Slicing gear? Mechanics gear... things of the past.

Poorly written powers like *BATTLE* meditation. We get in game, and suddenly all tests go on easy mode because one guy is adding 1 or 2 successes to almost every single check combat or non-combat.

Badly broken powers like telekinesis where it only takes a little bit of success to inflict a lot of damage, no weapon needed!

Then insult to injury is normal PC's always pay full price for abilities by the book... force users find teachers and get XP cost reductions on force abilities!

Then of course there's things like the force talismans as well... hey look my body and any armor I wear gains the cortosis quality! But only for force users are cool enough to use it.

2. Whenever present they tend to dominate or hijack the storyline through their actions.

Rebellion era... use the force in sight of others... and congratulations the inquisitors get involved... and your ability now becomes everybody's problem. Even Han ends up being special not because he's cool and accomplished, but because he was an untrained force sensitive.

Clone wars... jedi are granted leadership slots... because they're well trained soldiers? accomplished admirals... no just because they're jedi. In the setting, you don't get the one force using private in the platoon... they're so rare, they're picked up and recruited early into leadership.

Old republic... same problem as clone wars. Only worse in a way... the sith wars are raging during some parts of this. Mandalorian wars at others. Both involve at least one side where force users dominate the command structure and plot.

Any era, see point 1... like other characters only better and in the process driving the opposition the GM tosses at the rest of the party.

From the point of view of normal people throughout the universe, is there really much difference between the jedi and imperial inquisitors. Both only show up on matters of state business and commandeer the local resources. Both take children for special education and brainwashing while young. For most people... they're beneath the notice of either provided they don't get in their way, and will never have any interaction with either.

3. Wannabe Vampire... corners you and tells you about their character, lose 3 levels. (I know more of a WoD reference, but people love to talk about their ideas for 'special snowflake' force users!).

Most often these are always supremely talented Mary Sues who are creme de la creme just because... then wonder why many of us want to make normal PC's and blow them away... despite their force augmented defenses unavailable to normal PC's. These posts don't make me like them any more, they make me want to shoot them more.

Maybe that's a just another way of saying burnout as others have mentioned. Maybe it's similar to the 'drow' effect for a long while every drow you'd see was a drizzt clone... or at the very least the one exception good drow.

4. Bad parodies.

Sith and Jedi are both taken to ludicrous extremes. And they both seem to fall under the descriptor lawful stupid. On one side you have supposedly 'enlightened' space hippies imposing peace through their brutality. On the other you have stupidly cruel sith overlords inflicting pain for pains sake... Which raises the question, if the dark side of the force twists people... wouldn't the light side also similarly twist people!

The enlightened jedi... with their foresight powers... don't understand bringing balance to the force when they hold a near monopoly might not be such a good idea. (my favorite interpretation despite Lucas's numerous objections that wasn't what he meant!). Seriously, the 'wise' yoda did more to get his friends killed and bring down the jedi than any sith.

On the other side, instead of the vast imperial machine capable of running/policing the bulk of the galaxy. You see them portrayed as at best apparatchiks, at worst sadists. Rarely as competent officers, products of some of the best academies in the galaxy. In the cartoons, you see even the troopers being stupidly cruel on orders from high just to make the kids dislike them not because there's any good reason for such orders.

It's hard to be disciplined and responsible. When people fail they often blame the rules instead of their own lack of integrity and character. On the other hand, being an ape is easy.

On 2/16/2019 at 2:10 PM, Sincereagape said:

I encounter it very often.

Players and friends who hate Jedi.

A friend back in VA mentions celebrating clone troopers because they shot Jedi in the back in Order 66.

A new perspective player for my new table top game. “Yea. I like playing man-T-arms Jedi killing super soldier.”

My old table from 2018, in the current game the two altruistic padwan force users are not revealing the location of the Warden holocron from Lure of the Lost to prevent the fallen Jedi Rav Naaran from locating it. The older players comprised of a sharpshooter, ace pilot, medic, and sabeotour are pissed at them. The sharpshooter player even before hand stated “I hate force users. I hate Jedi.”

I don’t get it. Why the hate for force users? Why the hate for Jedi?

is it the “Jon Cena” affect? Do they always win? Are they the focus of every story? Are they to powerful?

Personally, I play non force users ;except for a blaster Jedi idea) because I have always enjoyed playing ‘gimped characters’ and enjoy non force users overall in Star Wars.

Feel free to discuss. I’m curious as to why people and fans hate Jedi/force users.

I doubt it's any one reason, but at least for a portion of the fanbase, I think it's a bit of redirection of anger at the way the franchise has been presented, and foisting it on the Jedi since they were the focus of the movies, specifically the prequels. The way the Jedi were portrayed in the prequel trilogy is....really really dumb. They are a fumbling, bumbling order of incompetent doofuses, that can't tell their **** from a hole in the ground. They drop the ball of competency on so many occasions, and in such epic ways, that it is the root of a lot of the downfall of the Republic, as presented in those films. Now personally, I chalk this up to really terrible writing and direction of those films, when in reality that organization would likely be far more competent than presented on screen. But, there was a final point that had to be reached in the prequel trilogies (all Jedi dead but Yoda and Kenobi), so they just wrote it however it seemed to work to cause their downfall. And that made for some much hated films, that were focused almost exclusively on the Jedi and their actions. So, Prequels = Dumb Movies, Prequels = Jedi Movies, ergo Jedi = Dumb People. This is probably the reason for those types of players who use OOC hatred to justify doing really **** things to Force users in game, and give a reason like your one player did. "I hate force users, I hate Jedi, thus I'm going to be a **** to any I meet in game. Even if my character doesn't have any reason to hate them." That's just some meta bull **** that a lot of fans are guilty of, and is frankly immature behavior. So for those type players, I'd say the reason is "they are immature fanboys that are still butt hurt about stories that upset them from decades ago."

Another section of the fanbase are probably just tired of the focus on Force users in the storytelling, and would like more emphasis on the more "mundane" aspects of the Star Wars universe. The people who love the ships and fleet battle content most, the ones who like the large, wartime battles, etc. For them, it's probably just a frustration of focus on a single aspect of the franchise that they find less than appealing. Though I doubt this group actively "hates" them as much as just wish there was more focus on other groups. I've heard people in this category, and they don't generally "hate" the Jedi and Force Users, they just want more content that's space battles and fleet actions, etc. More Battle Above Endor, less Luke Fighting Vader in Throne Room.

Others, again I think this is probably a smaller subset of them, might have an issue with the philosophical side to the Jedi, as represented by their Jedi Code, and how they dictate ways of living, the celibacy thing, taking very young children away from their family and indoctrinating them into what is basically a cult by modern standards. I kind of empathize with this group, as I find myself rolling my eyes whenever the subject of the Jedi's morality being one of actual "evil", because it doesn't conform to modern understandings of things like child development, social integration, biological urges, etc. People seem to forget the "code" of the Jedi is a cobbled together mix of real world religious philosophies, and new-age mumbo-jumbo from back in the 60's and 70's. We've learned a LOT more stuff today about those subjects that make those views on how to live a "balanced" life, flat out wrong. I think this group, just has an issue with separating the fictional world-rules from real world understanding, and want it all to be "accurate". Accurate in a universe with magical space wizards with laser swords, and other total silliness. To this bracket of fans, the Jedi represent terrible religious dogma that destroyed civilized society, and allowed a tyrant and despot to seize control of a government, and turn it into an empire. And since the group at the heart of it all was the Jedi, and their inability to see past their own dogma (because of REALLY heavy handed writing), it's all their fault, thus back to that Jedi = Dumb example above.

I'm sure there are plenty more groups with their own reasons why, but I'd say those likely encompass the larger groups reasoning. At least those are some of the most common criticisms that I actually SEE USED on this site, and other sites, when explaining why a person hates the Jedi. So, by the fact that these are the most commonly used reasons, I'd say they speak for themselves really.

I personally love the Jedi, and chalk up their many many flaws, to bad writing, by Lucas and a multitude of Legacy writers (aka published fan fiction writers). But I'm apparently in the minority of many Star Wars fans, in that I don't get my self identification from the franchise, and can appreciate it for what it tries to be, even if it doesn't always get their narratively. And I can accept that the various films can be fun and enjoyable, while still being flawed, which doesn't mean they are "destroying" things.

On 2/16/2019 at 2:10 PM, Sincereagape said:

I encounter it very often.

Players and friends who hate Jedi.

A friend back in VA mentions celebrating clone troopers because they shot Jedi in the back in Order 66.

A new perspective player for my new table top game. “Yea. I like playing man-T-arms Jedi killing super soldier.”

My old table from 2018, in the current game the two altruistic padwan force users are not revealing the location of the Warden holocron from Lure of the Lost to prevent the fallen Jedi Rav Naaran from locating it. The older players comprised of a sharpshooter, ace pilot, medic, and sabeotour are pissed at them. The sharpshooter player even before hand stated “I hate force users. I hate Jedi.”

I don’t get it. Why the hate for force users? Why the hate for Jedi?

is it the “Jon Cena” affect? Do they always win? Are they the focus of every story? Are they to powerful?

Personally, I play non force users ;except for a blaster Jedi idea) because I have always enjoyed playing ‘gimped characters’ and enjoy non force users overall in Star Wars.

Feel free to discuss. I’m curious as to why people and fans hate Jedi/force users.

Cause your friend has a chip implanted. This chip made them follower order 66 so therefor he or she hates the jedi. It was implanted some time while they were in the military.

In reality I served in the military and I love the jedi.

Personally, I do not hate the Jedi, and that is regardless of the game system used. I feel lucky to have been part of a lot of groups where people would still use beer and pretzels, yet have the dedication to a character concept, in as much as they do a little research about what they want to play. That very same goes for Jedi.

One such player knew very little of Star Wars, yet became interested in the Jedi. He researched the heck out of it, memorized the four-line Jedi Code first, and during play the character found the five-line version (from KOTOR, including Chaos/Harmony). Al his moral actions were measured against the code. He kept his character's lightsaber sheathed to the very last moment he became under attack, and made kills with it sparingly, preferring to disarm opponents and forcing surrender.

of course, I know plenty of horror stories as well, so I can understand people who say they are weary about Jedi.

There are two strata of characters in Star Wars: Force users, and everyone else. Jedi and Dark Jedi are special characters who are able to tune into a greater truth, in effect their reality is bigger.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

There are two strata of characters in Star Wars: Force users, and everyone else. Jedi and Dark Jedi are special characters who are able to tune into a greater truth, in effect their reality is bigger.

Force users that are neither Jedi nor Dark Jedi are no less "able to tune into a greater truth." You don't have to be a member of a Force-using club to play with the Force.

12 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Force users that are neither Jedi nor Dark Jedi are no less "able to tune into a greater truth." You don't have to be a member of a Force-using club to play with the Force.

Ok well I meant you have force users and everybody else.

19 hours ago, Archlyte said:

There are two strata of characters in Star Wars: Force users, and everyone else. Jedi and Dark Jedi are special characters who are able to tune into a greater truth, in effect their reality is bigger.

So is this why you dislike them? Or your theory as to why people hate them? I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with this declarative statement, I just fail to see what it has to do with the subject of the thread.

14 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

So is this why you dislike them? Or your theory as to why people hate them? I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with this declarative statement, I just fail to see what it has to do with the subject of the thread.

To be honest I don't remember why I responded with that lol other than I feel it is true from a storytelling sense. This system makes sure they are not an alpha class, but as far as movies go the Force users are the prime movers of the setting. They are aware of both the material world and the spiritual, whereas everyone else is stuck in the material.

On 2/16/2019 at 3:10 PM, Sincereagape said:

Why the hate for force users? Why the hate for Jedi?

I can only talk of the group I ran a 2-year campaign for, as they had a bias against Force Users.

I think it was a mix of jealousy and hard feelings. Nobody in the initial group branched into the Force Sensitive Exile tree (everyone had to start with EotE careers since that was the 1 book I had at the start), so newcomers starting off with that spec was outside what they viewed to be the game's focus. Regardless of what I told the group the focus of the game was to be, most of that group had differing desires for the game's focus but never communicated such. It was a tough game to run.

The hard feelings came when the one player, fed up with being teased, had his character attack other player characters. We discussed it at length and agreed it wouldn't happen again, then the player decided to text me asking if they could attack the others again mid-game and I responded out loud with "no, you cannot attack them". Said player was not invited back but the group decided from then on that they hated all Force Users, no matter what.

Cut to the 2nd year of the game, in which the party becomes a group of murderhobos with no real direction that spends half of every game arguing like children and hates 2 of their original members because they can now use the Force.

Cut to the group hitting an impasse in the final few sessions of the game because 6/8 want to help what is clearly the main antagonist destroy all life in the galaxy and 2/8 want to do the sensible thing and stop said villainy.

Cut to me saying if you can't talk it out then I'm unbanning PvP and you can fight it out.

Cut to the group saving the galaxy and then going off on their own epilogues at the end and murdering families, creating their own cults, generally becoming the villains.

Cut to my father's character who joined for 2 sessions saying "you're all sick, I'm outta here" in his epilogue.

10 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

I can only talk of the group I ran a 2-year campaign for, as they had a bias against Force Users.

I think it was a mix of jealousy and hard feelings. Nobody in the initial group branched into the Force Sensitive Exile tree (everyone had to start with EotE careers since that was the 1 book I had at the start), so newcomers starting off with that spec was outside what they viewed to be the game's focus. Regardless of what I told the group the focus of the game was to be, most of that group had differing desires for the game's focus but never communicated such. It was a tough game to run.

The hard feelings came when the one player, fed up with being teased, had his character attack other player characters. We discussed it at length and agreed it wouldn't happen again, then the player decided to text me asking if they could attack the others again mid-game and I responded out loud with "no, you cannot attack them". Said player was not invited back but the group decided from then on that they hated all Force Users, no matter what.

Cut to the 2nd year of the game, in which the party becomes a group of murderhobos with no real direction that spends half of every game arguing like children and hates 2 of their original members because they can now use the Force.

Cut to the group hitting an impasse in the final few sessions of the game because 6/8 want to help what is clearly the main antagonist destroy all life in the galaxy and 2/8 want to do the sensible thing and stop said villainy.

Cut to me saying if you can't talk it out then I'm unbanning PvP and you can fight it out.

Cut to the group saving the galaxy and then going off on their own epilogues at the end and murdering families, creating their own cults, generally becoming the villains.

Cut to my father's character who joined for 2 sessions saying "you're all sick, I'm outta here" in his epilogue.

I think the jealousy factor is a big part in groups that have Jedi come latter. I seen it in D&D game that the starting players say no magic users (there rule not even the GM) and a new player comes in and some get mad he wants to be a caster. It’s the “you can do this cool stuff all I can do is shoot” but the non force user forgets he can do so many other things and is likely better then the force user in fighting

the other thing is the old school guys who think the old movies are law and there are no other force users and the idea of someone other then the main movie cast useing the force is heresy to them. The new cartoons and stuff brake this idea with force users all over just untrained and unskillled (compared to Jedi) but to them this is not canon and should be banned

20 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

I can only talk of the group I ran a 2-year campaign for, as they had a bias against Force Users.

I think it was a mix of jealousy and hard feelings. Nobody in the initial group branched into the Force Sensitive Exile tree (everyone had to start with EotE careers since that was the 1 book I had at the start), so newcomers starting off with that spec was outside what they viewed to be the game's focus. Regardless of what I told the group the focus of the game was to be, most of that group had differing desires for the game's focus but never communicated such. It was a tough game to run.

The hard feelings came when the one player, fed up with being teased, had his character attack other player characters. We discussed it at length and agreed it wouldn't happen again, then the player decided to text me asking if they could attack the others again mid-game and I responded out loud with "no, you cannot attack them". Said player was not invited back but the group decided from then on that they hated all Force Users, no matter what.

Cut to the 2nd year of the game, in which the party becomes a group of murderhobos with no real direction that spends half of every game arguing like children and hates 2 of their original members because they can now use the Force.

Cut to the group hitting an impasse in the final few sessions of the game because 6/8 want to help what is clearly the main antagonist destroy all life in the galaxy and 2/8 want to do the sensible thing and stop said villainy.

Cut to me saying if you can't talk it out then I'm unbanning PvP and you can fight it out.

Cut to the group saving the galaxy and then going off on their own epilogues at the end and murdering families, creating their own cults, generally becoming the villains.

Cut to my father's character who joined for 2 sessions saying "you're all sick, I'm outta here" in his epilogue.

To be honest, that more speaks to me that your players are a bunch of anti-social crusty bantha holes then then force sensitivity. That sounds horrifying, no offense intended. Heh

Though sounds like jealiousy was key to here. I have a long standing tradition of despising force wizards (characters who only use the force, as a weapon, shield and general character crutch) because they usually have an ego as wide as a star destroyer and are about as interesting as the shaft of a hammer, there's only one force scholar that I really liked as a character who was very short lived. but I don't have much of a problem with characters who adopt force sensitivity as an aspect of who they are. I once had the pleasure of having a mentor/apprenticeish relationship with another player who played a slicer; the banter between the two was humorous!

"Well maybe if you spent more time meditating on the force then you do tinkering with your tiny little circuits, moving that object wouldn't have been that hard!"

"Says the shady geezer who can't even lift a pebble, can you even lift?!"

"Why you!"

and so fourth. It was a good dynamic as the "student" and the "master" (they never called eachother by those terms seriously, it was more of a dynamic partner in crimeship) never exactly agreed on anything, but then that was precisely what the master wanted. He didn't want another "him", he wanted to help another soul avoid making the same mistakes that he had done and for most part, it worked out beautifully.

15 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

To be honest, that more speaks to me that your players are a bunch of anti-social crusty bantha holes then then force sensitivity. That sounds horrifying, no offense intended. Heh

Well the hate for Jedi/Force Users isn't a really rational thing, and it's not really based in the actual content of the universe. I would speculate that the majority of the hate is on the meta, fan level, and yes, that would mean that people who are socially mal-adjusted, immature bleep wads are the likely reason for the hate. It might be misdirected hostility and fanboy whining about some slight that actually only exists in their head. But I mean, if THAT's why they hate it, then that IS the reason for the hate.

Nobody ever said the reason had to be a mature and rational one. It's a question about why people, and specifically Star Wars fans (infamous for rabid fanaticism), hate something.

29 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

To be honest, that more speaks to me that your players are a bunch of anti-social crusty bantha holes then then force sensitivity. That sounds horrifying, no offense intended. Heh

I mean, they were a bunch of young single guys and I think 50% of the game was them taking their aggression out on things that don't exist so there wouldn't be real life consequences.

It was a really creative group for the first year and we had a lot of laughs throughout the game's length. It was as equally mentally exhausting to GM, however.

I don't regret it but also I wouldn't run a game for that group again.

I'm late to the party, but I'll weigh in. My group of friends and I have played the D20 and the FFG star wars RPG. A few of them have experience with the old D6 west end version also.

Not a one of us have ever played a Jedi. I tried once, as a player, in the D20 version, but that group never really took off so he only saw 1 or 2 adventures, and even then I played him as more of a force adept than a Jedi.

The reason? We pretty much hate the Jedi and the force. Part of this is Lucas, part of it is the movies, part of it is the restrictions put upon a player that doesn't make for good RPG play. A Jedi is like a Paladin. A lawful good character by definition. That's fine if you have an adventure that plays to that, or challenges that concept. It's also perfectly fine if your entire party is on board with being a lawful good character **** bent on being a goody two shoes. Most of the time though you have a smattering of characters that spread all over the alignment scale, and adventures that would come to a grinding halt in the presence of a Jedi. Another issue at hand is the mary sueness of the character. They are special, they are unique, they get fancy powers/weapons that can trump any situation. Bleh.

Beyond that, playing a Jedi in the SW universe around the same time as Luke seems to fly in the face of common sense. The Jedi are basically dead and gone. If there was a squad of Jedi running around with the Rebels using force powers and lightsabering away at legions of storm troopers...well, don't you think that would have been notable. The rareness of Jedi in the original trilogy almost negates the existence of your character.

Ep 1-3 really killed it for us though. Ep4-6 left the Force as a mystical thing. The rules weren't established, the concept of the force was open ended and interesting. Ep 1-3 did some odd things to it. Nothing in 4-6 mandated that Jedi wear robes, 4-6 never called them midiclorians or had hand scanners to analyze your infection levels, 4-6 didn't include bad hair cuts, 4-6 didn't lay out child abduction or forced training at extremely young ages, 4-6 didn't outlaw love and relationships. 1-3 laid down a lot of rules that were ultimately pretty bad (in our opinion). This reduced the idea of Jedi from cool, super human warriors to coddled, whiny, catholic school boys.

Beyond all that, the coolest, most interesting characters in star wars aren't of the lightsaber wielding kind. Han, Chewy, Boba Fett, Lando, mandalorians, bounty hunters, criminals, rebel operatives, etc are the real interesting people in star wars. Why would I want to pretend to be a cultist in a bathrobe with a rat tail hair cut when I could pretend to be a wicked cool smuggler with blaster pistols.

All in all, there are a ton of reasons to dislike Jedi, and to dislike playing a Jedi, or being in a party with a Jedi. They are the basic #*$%& of star wars. They are the poster child that the biggest fan-boys look up to. They tend to be the least interesting characters with the least interesting motivations.

More power to anyone that loves them and loves playing them in RPGs. But for our group, they are a bad fit, and trying to incorporate them leaves everyone with a bad taste in their mouth. Sadly, it has such a great effect that it even tends to make us shun the non-jedi elements of the force along with it.

9 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

The reason? We pretty much hate the Jedi and the force. Part of this is Lucas, part of it is the movies, part of it is the restrictions put upon a player that doesn't make for good RPG play. A Jedi is like a Paladin. A lawful good character by definition. That's fine if you have an adventure that plays to that, or challenges that concept. It's also perfectly fine if your entire party is on board with being a lawful good character **** bent on being a goody two shoes.

Except the films show the "goody two shoes" you talk about, being anything but that. They aren't sociopathic murder hobos, but Obi-Wan does some dodgy stuff in the prequels, and the original trilogy. It's easy for players to just lump Jedi into "Paladin D'Bags", but the reality is far from that. The fact that most players aren't creative enough in their roleplaying to see Paladins or Jedi as anything other than a "buzz kill for our fun because they don't want to like, torture and murder people without any emotional conflict" ...well that's a problem with the player, not the concept. Qui-Gon literally gambles with the lives of slaves, and cheats on the very gambling for those slaves. He makes a decision of his own volition to condemn Anakin's mother to remain a slave, because the boy was personally valuable to him and his religious beliefs. He defies his Order's verdict on whether or not to train the child, because he didn't like their answer. Obi-Wan lies about being the Jedi who ordered the Clone Army so that he can get further information, he gets angry and lashes out in stupid ways on multiple occasions in the PT, and I'm pretty sure he does several un-Jedi things in the Clone Wars cartoon as well, though I don't remember much of it. Yoda lies about who he is to Luke, steals things from his supplies and eats them without asking, proceeds to beat on R2 with a stick when he tries to reclaim the afore-mentioned stolen property. He lies to Luke about his past and his parentage because it's more advantageous to his own personal goals of stopping the Emperor. The Jedi are hardly the "Paladin D'bags" that people often claim they are. Heck Paladins themselves are hardly that way in reality. It's just PLAYERS don't know how to actually play them

It sounds more like you hate the way players interpret how the Jedi should be, instead of how they actually are.

12 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Another issue at hand is the mary sueness of the character. They are special, they are unique, they get fancy powers/weapons that can trump any situation. Bleh.

And Han wasn't special and unique (at least by his own boasting), by saying he had "the fastest ship in the galaxy" and had done the kessel run in less than 12 parsecs? Also, it's hard to be "unique" when you are literally one of thousands in an established Order. That's kind of the opposite of unique. There are plenty of them who basically boiled down to "nameless mooks" in the prequel trilogy, just to flesh out action scenes, and die off.

14 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Beyond that, playing a Jedi in the SW universe around the same time as Luke seems to fly in the face of common sense. The Jedi are basically dead and gone. If there was a squad of Jedi running around with the Rebels using force powers and lightsabering away at legions of storm troopers...well, don't you think that would have been notable. The rareness of Jedi in the original trilogy almost negates the existence of your character.

How is this a criticism of Jedi? This is a criticism of bad writing and plugging them into a setting that doesn't fit them. I mean, I agree with your feelings that this is bad, but it's not really a criticism of Jedi.

15 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Beyond all that, the coolest, most interesting characters in star wars aren't of the lightsaber wielding kind. Han, Chewy, Boba Fett, Lando, mandalorians, bounty hunters, criminals, rebel operatives, etc are the real interesting people in star wars. Why would I want to pretend to be a cultist in a bathrobe with a rat tail hair cut when I could pretend to be a wicked cool smuggler with blaster pistols.

This is a personal preference and opinion, not an objective fact. And I know this because basically every character you listed (except for Chewie), I personally find incredibly boring and/or overhyped. Boba Fett is a joke, he's killed a blind man with a stick, and not like Chirrut Imwe kind of "blind guy with a stick". A regular blind guy, who literally didn't know he was there, and just casually caused him to die. Yeah...master hunter of men then one.

Now don't get me wrong, you are perfectly fine to prefer the other character types of Star Wars, instead of the Jedi, but "I just like these guys more because they interest me more personally." again isn't really a criticism of the Jedi. That's simply a personal preference. I personally find the mysticism and moral struggles of the Force and Force Users to be the most interesting thing about Star Wars, and the thing that sets it apart from all the other scifi genres out there. I don't consider that a positive thing about the Jedi when discussing their pros/cons as a concept, it's just my personal preference.

@KungFuFerret nailed it. If anything, Jedi are more akin to Rangers than Paladins. They have to be good , not necessarily " lawful ".

26 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Except the films show the "goody two shoes" you talk about, being anything but that. They aren't sociopathic murder hobos, but Obi-Wan does some dodgy stuff in the prequels, and the original trilogy. It's easy for players to just lump Jedi into "Paladin D'Bags", but the reality is far from that. The fact that most players aren't creative enough in their roleplaying to see Paladins or Jedi as anything other than a "buzz kill for our fun because they don't want to like, torture and murder people without any emotional conflict" ...well that's a problem with the player, not the concept. Qui-Gon literally gambles with the lives of slaves, and cheats on the very gambling for those slaves. He makes a decision of his own volition to condemn Anakin's mother to remain a slave, because the boy was personally valuable to him and his religious beliefs. He defies his Order's verdict on whether or not to train the child, because he didn't like their answer. Obi-Wan lies about being the Jedi who ordered the Clone Army so that he can get further information, he gets angry and lashes out in stupid ways on multiple occasions in the PT, and I'm pretty sure he does several un-Jedi things in the Clone Wars cartoon as well, though I don't remember much of it. Yoda lies about who he is to Luke, steals things from his supplies and eats them without asking, proceeds to beat on R2 with a stick when he tries to reclaim the afore-mentioned stolen property. He lies to Luke about his past and his parentage because it's more advantageous to his own personal goals of stopping the Emperor. The Jedi are hardly the "Paladin D'bags" that people often claim they are. Heck Paladins themselves are hardly that way in reality. It's just PLAYERS don't know how to actually play them

It sounds more like you hate the way players interpret how the Jedi should be, instead of how they actually are.

And Han wasn't special and unique (at least by his own boasting), by saying he had "the fastest ship in the galaxy" and had done the kessel run in less than 12 parsecs? Also, it's hard to be "unique" when you are literally one of thousands in an established Order. That's kind of the opposite of unique. There are plenty of them who basically boiled down to "nameless mooks" in the prequel trilogy, just to flesh out action scenes, and die off.

How is this a criticism of Jedi? This is a criticism of bad writing and plugging them into a setting that doesn't fit them. I mean, I agree with your feelings that this is bad, but it's not really a criticism of Jedi.

This is a personal preference and opinion, not an objective fact. And I know this because basically every character you listed (except for Chewie), I personally find incredibly boring and/or overhyped. Boba Fett is a joke, he's killed a blind man with a stick, and not like Chirrut Imwe kind of "blind guy with a stick". A regular blind guy, who literally didn't know he was there, and just casually caused him to die. Yeah...master hunter of men then one.

Now don't get me wrong, you are perfectly fine to prefer the other character types of Star Wars, instead of the Jedi, but "I just like these guys more because they interest me more personally." again isn't really a criticism of the Jedi. That's simply a personal preference. I personally find the mysticism and moral struggles of the Force and Force Users to be the most interesting thing about Star Wars, and the thing that sets it apart from all the other scifi genres out there. I don't consider that a positive thing about the Jedi when discussing their pros/cons as a concept, it's just my personal preference.

The OP wanted reason as to why people dislike Jedi. I gave opinions from a group of players. I wasn't trying to start an argument, just state opinions.

But since we are going down this path...

The most interesting jedi are all aberrations. Hence the reason they are interesting. However this flies in the face of the class itself. To be an interesting Jedi you need to defy what the Jedi stand for. It's not a great starting point for an RPG character. To be a good JEDI, you need to be lawful good. To be an interesting JEDI, you need to be chaotic good. This works in the structure of Ep 4-6. But it doesn't work well in the structure of Ep 1-3. It makes for good movies, but bad RPGs. I mean, if you ignore every rule that applies to Jedi in Ep1-3, then you can do some fun stuff and make an interesting character, but every adventure is broken into several comments of "well that doesn't seem very jedi-like...oh yeah, we aren't following the majority of established lore"

Qui Gon never really gambles at all. He cheats with the dice roll. If Anakin fails to win the race, then he lacks the potential that he is looking for and he's not burdened with a worthless child. He knows he'll find another way off the planet if he needs to.

You're right in that Han wasn't special...and that is what makes him cool. He had no magic, no great skill or ability that set him apart. He was a thug, that made heroic choices. He didn't have the magic powers or special weapons, he had his grit and determination.

As for Jedi not fitting the scenario, that is a problem with Jedi in an RPG. They only fit in certain eras. It doesn't really make sense to play jedi in any time period after Ep3...that's rather restrictive. Especially for a rather large element of the IP.

The Jedi are all basically the same. Kidnapped, forced to join a cult, brainwashed into a certain, very restrictive train of thought. They don't have interesting origins, backgrounds, character development, and they don't do much until the clone wars. The other characters are just that, characters. They all had stories that explained who they were. They had varied lives, experiences, etc that make them individuals. Yes, Boba Fett goes out in a pretty lackluster way that undercuts who he is, but the fact remains that prior to that incident he is a formidable bounty hunter.

Now don't get me wrong, you are perfectly fine to prefer the jedi over the rest of the galaxy full of interesting characters, but "I like Jedi because I ignore all the rules that make Jedi Jedi" isn't really a defense of the Jedi. It's just personal preference. 😜 Mysticism and moral struggles are a dime a dozen in scifi. ****, it's the basis of most scifi. Star Wars just does it in the most black and white, easy to see and understand form. And they don't even restrict it to the Jedi. The non-Jedi are also dealing with a lot of moral struggle.

Honestly, in my opinion, the force, and even the Jedi can be great characters for RPGs. But it's not hard to understand why some people dislike them due to a variety of reasons. I personally find them weighed down by too much baggage from the Star Wars universe to be really great characters however. Their defining characteristics tend to be what they are, not who they are. They are the D&D 3.5 prestige classes of the Star Wars RPG world.

Look, Stormtroopers are pretty cool. Neat armor, neat gear, intimidating, but to be a good RPG character, they need to stop being a stormtrooper. Playing an RPG where you are a stormtrooper doing stormtroopery things day in and day out wouldn't make for a very interesting game. Playing as a group of stormtroopers that decided to defect and have to struggle with the moral implications of fighting against their own friends and family in a galactic war while also trying to balance the moral implications of the stability offered by the Imperial doctrine and the freedom offered by the Republic would make for a great RPG....but then you aren't really playing as stormtroopers are you. It's the same sort of fundamental flaw of the Jedi characters. To be an interesting Jedi RPG character you have to basically buck the rules of the Jedi, and of the character class. You have to not be a Jedi to be an interesting Jedi.

The topic is 'Why do people hate the Jedi', not 'We need to convert everyone to be Jedi fan-boys'. Just trying to help you understand those that have a different opinion than you do.