How would you stat out pepper spray as a personal weapon? Maybe something like:

Ranged (Light), Dam 5, Crit –, Range (Short), Encum 0, HP 0, $15, Rarity 1, Accurate 2, Burn 2, Disorient 2, Limited Ammo 1, Stun Damage

My thinking on the item qualities is that it's Accurate in that most models shoot a colored stream of liquid that allows the user to better pinpoint the face, so there should be some mechanism to represent automatic "aiming." Burn represents another two minutes or so of pain and discomfort the victim suffers when sprayed. (Pepper spray can continue to affect the target for up to an hour, so this number may actually be low.) Disorient represents the effects of blindness and pain on the target, but it may actually be too lenient; "Concussive" (preventing actions) may be a better choice. Limited Ammo seems right, since most pepper spray cans can only shoot for a minute or so straight. And finally, there's no lasting harm, ergo Stun Damage.

More expensive models might have higher damage and have more "ammo" capacity, letting you spray for more than 1 round. Some might have Blast at the expense of Accurate (representing a burst rather than a steady, colored stream that lets you see whether you're connecting with the target's face).

Thoughts?

Just Disorient, and it's not Accurate.

1 hour ago, SavageBob said:

How would you stat out pepper spray as a personal weapon? Maybe something like:

Ranged (Light), Dam 5, Crit –, Range (Short), Encum 0, HP 0, $15, Rarity 1, Accurate 2, Burn 2, Disorient 2, Limited Ammo 1, Stun Damage

My thinking on the item qualities is that it's Accurate in that most models shoot a colored stream of liquid that allows the user to better pinpoint the face, so there should be some mechanism to represent automatic "aiming." Burn represents another two minutes or so of pain and discomfort the victim suffers when sprayed. (Pepper spray can continue to affect the target for up to an hour, so this number may actually be low.) Disorient represents the effects of blindness and pain on the target, but it may actually be too lenient; "Concussive" (preventing actions) may be a better choice. Limited Ammo seems right, since most pepper spray cans can only shoot for a minute or so straight. And finally, there's no lasting harm, ergo Stun Damage.

More expensive models might have higher damage and have more "ammo" capacity, letting you spray for more than 1 round. Some might have Blast at the expense of Accurate (representing a burst rather than a steady, colored stream that lets you see whether you're connecting with the target's face).

Thoughts?

For comparison, a CRB Light Pistol is Dmg 5, Range short, with no special properties. A CRB Stun Gun is Dmg 5, Range engaged, Stun 3, Stun Damage.

I would say DMG 4, range engaged, disorient 2, stun damage, stun 4, limited ammo 1.

That would work. I think it would still be short range, though. A stun gun is essentially a handheld taser, despite the name "gun" in the title. And the colored spray of the pepper spray is essentially like having a laser site and should count for Accurate 1 at least. But I like the idea of stun 4 instead of Burn (although I think Burn might be warranted still.) Pepper spray is potent stuff!

1 hour ago, SavageBob said:

Pepper spray is potent stuff!

Compared to a bullet in the face?

9 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Compared to a bullet in the face?

I's peanuts. Giving damage for a pepper spray is ridiculous. At best it only does stun damage but the main effect of a pepper spray is to blind and disorient. You could add burn for 3 advantages.

44 minutes ago, WolfRider said:

I's peanuts. Giving damage for a pepper spray is ridiculous. At best it only does stun damage but the main effect of a pepper spray is to blind and disorient. You could add burn for 3 advantages.

It's a question of how to represent the blinding and disorienting, I guess. The "stun gun" from the CRB does Stun Damage, for instance. I think as long as the damage it does is about enough to take out a standard minion, it's about right. Then give it Disorient and maybe Burn so that it has some effect on a Rival or Nemesis without taking them out in a single spray (which it only has one of anyway thanks to Limited Ammo).

Cheaper brands don't seem to spray far, so Engaged might be good for them. Better varieties might go out to Short. Not all brands have the colored spray, so only the more expensive ones would get Accurate 1.

At the end of the day, it needs to be able to take out a threat in one spray, but "threat" here is probably defined as Minion, not anything bigger.

I'm OK with a good deal of strain damage. Pepper spray makes people run away, and strain is the right way to model that. At the risk of becoming overly cumbersome, you could have the target make an incidental hard Resilience roll to take additional strain, instead of having a stun quality.

I still don't care for Accurate though. Turns in Genesys are not a 2-second time frame where you press a trigger quickly and are done. It is a dynamic time frame that can represent a fair amount of action. Yes, the stream of spray lets you zone in on a face. But in that time you can also pop off a series of shots with a pistol.

Remove the damage of any type. Having damage and armor reducing said damage doesn't make sense. On a success, it applies Disoriented. I would possibly up it to 2 Setback instead of one then make the duration equal to number of uncancelled successes in rounds. A blast directly in the eyes will last longer then say to the forehead only. Both effective, but the former will last longer. If the target has a completely enclosed space helmet, the target is immune.

Having been subjected to it several times and administered it several times, strain doesn't cover it. It doesn't make you go unconscious. It's painful and very, very distracting. Setback being applied is perfect. I wouldn't apply Blind either. IF it hits directly in your eyes, you blink once, you can see. Maybe your vision isn't the best, but the Setback models that. Burn also I would not add. It doesn't physically burn you at all. It can FEEL like a burning sensation, but isn't actually burning. Again, that sensation can be modeled by the Setback applied.

On 2/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Sturn said:

Remove the damage of any type. Having damage and armor reducing said damage doesn't make sense. On a success, it applies Disoriented. I would possibly up it to 2 Setback instead of one then make the duration equal to number of uncancelled successes in rounds. A blast directly in the eyes will last longer then say to the forehead only. Both effective, but the former will last longer. If the target has a completely enclosed space helmet, the target is immune.

Having been subjected to it several times and administered it several times, strain doesn't cover it. It doesn't make you go unconscious. It's painful and very, very distracting. Setback being applied is perfect. I wouldn't apply Blind either. IF it hits directly in your eyes, you blink once, you can see. Maybe your vision isn't the best, but the Setback models that. Burn also I would not add. It doesn't physically burn you at all. It can FEEL like a burning sensation, but isn't actually burning. Again, that sensation can be modeled by the Setback applied.

All good points, but just keep in mind that Strain damage doesn't necessarily mean going unconscious. Social encounters hit Strain, for instance, and in those cases, exceeding Strain Threshold simply means being removed from the scene for whatever narrative reason makes sense. Burn, too, doesn't literally mean "burning," it simply means an amount of damage that persists into a second or third round due to the thing causing the effect still affecting you. In this case, it might very well work until the subject uses something to remove the capsaicin.

6 hours ago, SavageBob said:

Burn, too, doesn't literally mean "burning," it simply means an amount of damage that persists into a second or third round due to the thing causing the effect still affecting you. In this case, it might very well work until the subject uses something to remove the capsaicin.

But are you then going to make the Burns strain damage? If not you are causing light Wounds, which pepper spray doesn't do at all.

48 minutes ago, Sturn said:

But are you then going to make the Burns strain damage? If not you are causing light Wounds, which pepper spray doesn't do at all.

Plus the whole Soak issue.

I agree with you, chemical irritants should not cause damage (of either type). Disorient or even Concussive (mechanically, even though the name doesn't fit) would be better. Optionally, have a hit give a specific critical hit result (like Compromised) that automatically heals at the end of the encounter.

My only reservation about avoiding Stun Damage altogether is that Star Wars does for this sort of thing—sometimes. The Knockout Grenade, for instance, described as a gas, does 12 Stun Damage, but includes the caveat "no effect on targets wearing breath masks or without respiratory systems."

Then there's the Spore Stun Grenade, which is narratively described as essentially crowd-control gas. It does 8 damage, Blast 7, Pierce 3, Stun Damage. No effect if the target is in an enviro-suit.

However, the Poison Gas Grenade doesn't. It has no damage or crit rating. The writeup says it releases its gas even on a failed check to use it; the gas stays for 2 rounds and exposes anyone who comes into contact with it to the poison (which is loaded into it). This becomes 5 rounds in an enclosed space with no ventilation. Like with the Knockout Grenade, breathing equipment means it doesn't affect you.

1 hour ago, SavageBob said:

My only reservation about avoiding Stun Damage altogether is that Star Wars does for this sort of thing—sometimes. The Knockout Grenade, for instance, described as a gas, does 12 Stun Damage, but includes the caveat "no effect on targets wearing breath masks or without respiratory systems."

Then there's the Spore Stun Grenade, which is narratively described as essentially crowd-control gas. It does 8 damage, Blast 7, Pierce 3, Stun Damage. No effect if the target is in an enviro-suit.

However, the Poison Gas Grenade doesn't. It has no damage or crit rating. The writeup says it releases its gas even on a failed check to use it; the gas stays for 2 rounds and exposes anyone who comes into contact with it to the poison (which is loaded into it). This becomes 5 rounds in an enclosed space with no ventilation. Like with the Knockout Grenade, breathing equipment means it doesn't affect you.

"Beacause Star Wars did it that way" will lead you to some bad ends.

Strain damage is the exact right way to model a character being so bothered by something they have to leave.

At this point, I think the biggest danger is too much navel gazing. No stats are going to mimic the effects of pepper spray perfectly. They players are not going to nitpick it to death. Just make sure its power levels are reasonable and get gaming.