If gas clouds don’t have a penalty for running into hem, they are a mistake and shouldn’t be played anyway.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

To be fair, I think the Core Set is meant to be a must-buy for everyone, regardless of faction.

Yes, seeing as you don't get Damage Decks, movement tools, or rules in the other packs, the Core clearly intended as a "must-buy" for all players, so people saying that Sep/Rep factions can't get in-faction asteroids/debris is pretty disingenuous. It's also true, that unlike back in 1.0 where there modus operandi was buying across factions for access to things, FFG said it would be different this time. If an Imperial player is waiting 3 or 4 waves (1.5-2.5 years) to get access to something, is that really different than it was in 1.0? And, expecting people to buy across-faction back in 1.0 when there were only 3 Factions is pretty different than here in 2.0 where keeping up across factions requires keeping up with seven factions.


Another thing I think most people are also missing is that the clouds appear to be incredibly powerful, and many archetypes will get incredible utility out of them, given their otherwise unparalleled buff to defense in the 2.0 setting (although from a design perspective, I'm not sure 2.0 games need to become even longer... since many more seem to go to time than back in 1.0). A cloud between a ship and an entire swarm of 2-Attack ships (TIEs, Z-95s, Vultures, etc.) pretty much ensures the swarm will deal almost no damage that round. I would say the difference between clouds and asteroids/debris appears to a be difference in kind and not just a difference in degree.

So this feels like some blatant "obstacle" creep to motivate folks to pick up the Squadron Packs, and once they've done that, I'm sure FFG is hoping they'll think "well... I've already got three ships for this faction I wasn't going to play... guess I might as well pick up a few more and have a range of options for this faction, too."

1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

If an Imperial player is waiting 3 or 4 waves (1.5-2.5 years) to get access to something, is that really different than it was in 1.0?

Is that how long 3-4 waves maps to? Here I was thinking Wave IV looked to drop before the game's 1-year anniversary.

Yeah, there's still a small delay, but so far the waves seem to be much closer than in 1.0.

I will never understand the customers dripping with corporate loyalty. "FFG doesn't owe you anything." "You should just be happy that FFG is making such a great game and silently suffer its less desirable decisions." "My other hobby is flying F-14s and it is way more expensive that X-Wing Miniatures."

FFG is selling a game where the continuing viability of the game is one of the major selling points. This is particularly important when it comes to products that may provide a competitive advantage. In order to resolve customer dissatisfaction resulting from attempting to pressure customers into making purchases of packages of product that contained mostly unwanted items in the previous version of the game, FFG said that they would not do that any more. Now, it at least appears that FFG is continuing to do that. People are complaining, which makes sense.

What could you possibly stand to lose if FFG is convinced to sell products that do not package desirable generic game components with a faction-limited purchase? The worst case scenario for you is that fewer people are dissatisfied with the way that the game is developing. The best case scenario is that you do not have to waste your money if you want to use the new components without starting to collect a new faction.

14 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

3 or 4 waves (1.5-2.5 years)

9 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Is that how long 3-4 waves maps to? Here I was thinking Wave IV looked to drop before the game's 1-year anniversary.

Yeah, there's still a small delay, but so far the waves seem to be much closer than in 1.0.

JJ48 is right. Currently, waves are coming out roughly every three months, not six.

14 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Is that how long 3-4 waves maps to? Here I was thinking Wave IV looked to drop before the game's 1-year anniversary.

Yeah, there's still a small delay, but so far the waves seem to be much closer than in 1.0.

Hmm, that might be right? I'm sort of assuming that Wave 3 will drop around April at the earliest, which doing the math yea I guess puts waves at about 4 months instead of the 6-7 moths they tended to be, so I suppose maybe my "Wave Math" needs a slight speed-up.

Still, exact specifics of the timeline aside, we have no evidence that even into Wave 4 Rebels or Imperials will have access to all the upgrades that Scum had back in Wave 0.5 (Lando's Falcon), which was out back around early last summer. In my experience, the only real go-to Gunner upgrade for large based turrets in Extended (barring the now defunct Roarke+Han) has been Agile Gunner, as it's clearly the most utility while also being at one of the lowest price points for the slot. Yet that card is locked behind Lando's Falcon.

I readily admit that I will need to do a fair amount of crow-eating if FFG has put Composure and Agile Gunner, for instance, into the Falcon and Deci sets, but then it's weird that they wouldn't have shown that off with the card spread, and instead would only include super unexciting cards (e.g. Swarm Tactics) to fan out. That still, though, wouldn't address Ion Clouds or all the new Force Powers (since we know they won't be in the Reb/Imp stuff of Wave 4 since none of their pilots will have a Force Slot).

4 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Still, we have no evidence that even into Wave 4 Rebels or Imperials will have access to all the upgrades that Scum had back in Wave 0.5 (Lando's Falcon), which was out back around early last summer.

I thought Lando's Falcon released in September, with the rest of Wave I.

2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I readily admit that I will need to do a fair amount of crow-eating if FFG has put Composure and Agile Gunner, for instance, into the Falcon and Deci sets, but then it's weird that they wouldn't have shown that off with the card spread, and instead would only include super unexciting cards (e.g. Swarm Tactics) to fan out.

Ships they're re-releasing from the Conversion Kits are only coming with Conversion Kit/Core content.

Don't quote me on that if something changes, but as of right now, all evidence points to that. And we're better off that way, to avoid everyone complaining that they have to buy another Rebel Falcon just to get Agile Gunner. Or another B-Wing just to get the new cannon cards.

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I thought Lando's Falcon released in September, with the rest of Wave I.

Ah, you're right I think. I was thrown off by it being out at Gencon early, and my brain then thinking it came out alongside Saw's Renegades and the TIE Reaper. But technically it was alongside the rest of the initial release.


STILL, I feel like we're splitting hairs here. It feels a bit like someone dismissing Climate Change concerns by countering "WELL ACTUALLY, the NASA satellite assessment revealed that in 2017 their was only a 32% reduction in arctic ice, not a 39% reduction!" Like, okay, fair point... but this doesn't resolve the issue.

12 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Ah, you're right I think. I was thrown off by it being out at Gencon early, and my brain then thinking it came out alongside Saw's Renegades and the TIE Reaper. But technically it was alongside the rest of the initial release.


STILL, I feel like we're splitting hairs here. It feels a bit like someone dismissing Climate Change concerns by countering "WELL ACTUALLY, the NASA satellite assessment revealed that in 2017 their was only a 32% reduction in arctic ice, not a 39% reduction!" Like, okay, fair point... but this doesn't resolve the issue.

Depends what the issue is. If we're just asking the question of whether every faction gets everything in the exact same wave, I think we all agree the answer is no. However, when discussing whether the wait will be reasonable, I personally think it makes a big difference whether we're talking a few to several months or a couple years.

Time will tell which is the case, but I don't feel like panicking at this point in time.

If you want to play with a Resistance Transport buy a Resistance Transport Expansion Pack. If you want to play with Gas Clouds buy a Gas Cloud Expansion Pack, it doesn't matter which one.

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

However, when discussing whether the wait will be reasonable, I personally think it makes a big difference whether we're talking a few to several months or a couple years.

I agree that the duration of the wait is relevant to the extent of the "issue," but we already know it's not "just a few to several months," given that we'll have gone at least through Wave 3 without it being resolved, and barring some huge surprises with Wave 4's Rebel/Imp face-down upgrades, it won't happen by then either (and if we assume 3 months per Wave, that puts Wave 4 at about the 1 year anniversary mark).

So the question isn't really "will the wait be a few months or a year+," but rather it's "is a year+ wait reasonable or unreasonable?"

49 minutes ago, Rapture said:

What could you possibly stand to lose if FFG is convinced to sell products that do not package desirable generic game components with a faction-limited purchase? The worst case scenario for you is that fewer people are dissatisfied with the way that the game is developing.

Eh...the worst case scenario is that sales drop to a point where it's no longer profitable to produce the game. I honestly don't believe that would happen, but I do think making all components cheap and easy to acquire will negatively impact other aspects of the game because it just won't make as much money. The more products they produce the more danger there is of not getting enough returns. This means they would reduce the number of ships for each faction, or the number of System Opens, etc. to cut costs.

6 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Eh...the worst case scenario is that sales drop to a point where it's no longer profitable to produce the game. I honestly don't believe that would happen, but I do think making all components cheap and easy to acquire will negatively impact other aspects of the game because it just won't make as much money. The more products they produce the more danger there is of not getting enough returns. This means they would reduce the number of ships for each faction, or the number of System Opens, etc. to cut costs.

Excellent point. I think that FFG should only make ion cloud tokens available in the Armada starter set. All of the X-Wing players buying that product will certainly increase FFG's profits. If X-Wing can't survive without the products being released in a manner that forces players to either be at a disadvantage or buy things that they do not want, then X-Wing is in big trouble regardless. I do not think that anyone at FFG developed a financial strategy that relies on non-Separatist players buying the new Separatist kit for the ion clouds. I am sure that they are aware that more of the product will move because of it, but I chalk the lack of alternatively available ion clouds up to them simply not caring enough to bother figuring out how to stick additional cardboard into a random kit for each faction.

Your reply assumes that they will be producing "additional products," but I do not know why. People want the components to be released for all factions (e.g. ion clouds in expansions for Rebels, Imperials, ect. as opposed to only in the Separatist kit). This would match what FFG said that its plan for 2.0 was.

1 hour ago, SpiderMana said:

Ships they're re-releasing from the Conversion Kits are only coming with Conversion Kit/Core content.

Don't quote me on that if something changes, but as of right now, all evidence points to that. And we're better off that way, to avoid everyone complaining that they have to buy another Rebel Falcon just to get Agile Gunner. Or another B-Wing just to get the new cannon cards.

This was also a lie, the Decimator has two droids which weren't included with the Imperial Conversion Kit.

I think what this thread proves is that however many things FFG do right the X-Wing community will find something to complain bitterly and endlessly about. If you won $1m dollars you'd complain it wasn't handed to you in small change to use the vending machine.

3 minutes ago, eMeM said:

This was also a lie, the Decimator has two droids which weren't included with the Imperial Conversion Kit.

Honestly, how do you sleep at night?

7 minutes ago, Rapture said:

I do not think that anyone at FFG developed a financial strategy that relies on non-Clone Wars players buying the new Separatist or Republic kits for the ion clouds.

The Gas Clouds are in both Squadron Packs coming out with the rest of Wave 3.

3 minutes ago, eMeM said:

This was also a lie, the Decimator has two droids which weren't included with the Imperial Conversion Kit.

But they were included in the Scum conversion - supporting SpiderMana's point.

Just now, TheCeilican said:

I think what this thread proves is that however many things FFG do right the X-Wing community will find something to complain bitterly and endlessly about. If you won $1m dollars you'd complain it wasn't handed to you in small change to use the vending machine.

Yeah, evil entitled gamers, how dare they insult my waifu FFG and expect at least enough decency to keep their promises

50 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

So the question isn't really "will the wait be a few months or a year+," but rather it's "is a year+ wait reasonable or unreasonable?"

I guess in that regard, it really matters which cards we're talking about. For the cards in Scum Falcon? Not that big a deal for me. For the gas clouds? We'll see how long it takes and how good they end up being, and I'll get back to you.

There is one other thing FFG may do. Releasing packs with every wave would drive up required shelf space, as well as causing people to complain about the cost, regardless of what it is, if there were only a couple of new cards that wave. Maybe FFG will do some kind of annual pack including all of the generic cards/tokens from each year.

13 minutes ago, eMeM said:

This was also a lie, the Decimator has two droids which weren't included with the Imperial Conversion Kit.

I didn’t say a specific faction of conversion kit.

Also how are you making that sound like a bad thing?

2 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I didn’t say a specific faction of conversion kit.

Also how are you making that sound like a bad thing?

How is it not a bad thing? If an Imperial player doesn't want to buy out of faction he has to get another Decimator, exactly the thing FFG promised will not happen.

I can't believe that the conversion kits had everything I needed to fly a Decimator but didn't have the plastic ship. I'm being forced to buy a ship I don't want just to use these pilot cards.

FFG are cash mad I tell you!

1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

I guess in that regard, it really matters which cards we're talking about. For the cards in Scum Falcon? Not that big a deal for me. For the gas clouds? We'll see how long it takes and how good they end up being, and I'll get back to you.

Fair enough, everyone's mileage will vary.

As a predominately Rebel player who enjoys flying the (Rebel) Falcon and YT-2400, I've despearately wanted access to Agile Gunner, as not only is it the best Gunner upgrade for large-based turrets like the 1300, 2400, and VT-49... I'd go so far as to say it's the only upgrade worth running in that spot, given that it's incredibly useful for action-economy and is like the cheapest Gunner option. The rest of the Gunners, especially the Rebel unique Gunners, feel grossly over-costed, and I think reflect the designers severely overestimating just how useful attacking out of both ends of the bowtie arc would actually be on the table. If the rest of the Gunners cost like 4-8 points, or if Agile Gunner cost like 16pts, then maybe it wouldn't be such a blow-out, but as it stands now Agile Gunner is the only gunner worth putting on a large bow-tie arc Rebel ship.

As to Composure, I actually feel like it's a solid card for a YT-1300/YT-2400 with Perceptive Co-Pilot. For a mere point, you can safely try that risky Boost/BR that may-just-barely fit and will get you out of an enemy's arc, but if you try and fail then you can still use Composure to take that Focus for Focus+Focus or Focus+Evade (with Jyn on the board), which is still really nice but not as good as just boosting out.


Granted, these are only issues for folks who want to fly such things. Someone who prefers to fly XXXX Rebel lists, for instance, could care less that cards like Composure and Agile Gunner are unavailable. I could see some Luke fans wanting access to Brilliant Evasion, maybe, and Kanan will certainly love having Maul+Hate as an option. Depending on how good the new torpedoes are in Wave 4 (e.g. the cards using the old Plasma Torpedo art), I could imagine Rebel X-Wing, Y-Wing, and B-Wing fans being a bit miffed they don't have them.



But yes, all of these things are "your mileage will vary" depending on what a person likes to fly.