TheFlatline said:

Kaihlik

Kaihlik said:

Indeed correct. My fiancee did the same sort of thing for one of her characters, a noble socialite-assassin. Looking at the different careers, she took the Scum one, because it best fit her character (social and violent), and I didn't even have to give elite advances for it to work. What you are saying, Flatline, is that that character should have been an "Assassin" career character, because a Scum can't possible be anything but a scum.

So yes, a Scum could be a Sergeant in the Imperial Guard if his background said so, because it might be that, as a sergeant, he's the weaselly type, more of a talker and gambler, though still a killer, than someone who's gone through the "Guardsman" career. The book itself states that the career names are just those, names, and don't restrict a character to HAVE to take their namesake career if it doesn't fit the character.

My interpretation is that someone who is the Inquisitor career is actively "playing the system" They know the in's and out's of the ordos and are much more adept at political maneuvering involving other inquisitors. So among all of the interpretations presented, I would have to agree partially with Flatline. I feel it's important that an inquisitor who has not gone through formal ackowledgement by other inquisitors and spent time courting in inquisitorial circles be less capable in terms of pulling influence. For me, the Inquisitor career represents being a part of the In Crowd. Though I do feel, "Anyone can pick up a rosette" they would not necessarily be accepted by other inquisitors and would tend to avoid the traditional social connections in favor of another role, such as front-line combat, that would fit more with their personality and design.

Azraiel said:

No it's not. Inquisitor is a role - you are an Inquisitor as much as a Space Marine is a Space Marine. What you're describing is akin to having a Guardsman call himself a Space Marine.

So, again, it doesn't work that way.

Azraiel said:

I'm not sure I get all this "Inquisitor must be an Inquisitor" riot.

Some of you folks are using the ownership of the rosette as akin to picking up a random NYPD badge and claiming to be an officer. That is not the case. The case is someone who is, say, an Adept->Sage, who over the course of the campaign(s) is finally inducted by his Inquisitor to become a fully-fledged member of the Ordos himself. Through the story he has attained the rank of Inquisitor. I don't see how this forces the player to start taking the "Inquisitor" Rank, or how his lack thereof stops him from remaining one.

If you randomly pick up a Rosette, you are no more an actual Inquisitor than a passerby wjo picks up an NYPD badge (maybe a little more due to cultural differences between the Imperium and the real world). If you were trained as an actual NYPD officer, it wouldn't matter what your previous "career" was or still is: You are, according to the world's canon fluff, an officer.

I don't suddenly acquire the "School Teacher" or "Accountant" rank because I get a job of similar persuasion. Your players sound like they are mixing what happens "out of character" (dice rolls, character classes/ranks/titles) with what happens "In-game" (actual dialogue, GM-generated plot development) too much.

Similarly, just because our Adept->Sage player says out of character "Oh, I don;t want to take the Inquisitor Rank, it's not what I imagine my character being skilled in," it doesn't follow that, in-character, his Inquisitor suddenly snaps his hand shut and crushes the newly-minted rosette like he's on a japanese television show.

To get my point across in a manner that makes me sound less like a reality-deprived serial killer, let's use the example which often arises when someone makes an "Imperial Guard" campaign but wants to see a variety of careers. Obviously, guardsman-careers are going to be in abundance, but no-one seriously argues that an assassin, scum, or perhaps even cleric could easily make a suitable basis for a guardsman of a different persuasion. Just like M.A.S.H., they're all employed "fluffwise" in the military, but you can see the different "careers" (and their associated skills/talents), if you will, from each character.

So your assassin is the steely-eyed sniper, while the scum is that shifty guy who arranges fight clubs for the platoon and fences "retrieved" goods to the ratlings. The adept is the bookish librarian drafted into service for his citizenship, and the guardsman, well, he's a stock-standard grunt.

All of them are guardsmen by the fluff of the game (as they are recruited into the Imperial Guard), yet they are all represented by non-guardsman careers.

Another example: One of our assassins in our group now possesses ownership of his inherited mansion, complete with training academy and a myriad of underworld contacts, obligations, and dramatis personae, some inherited and some made by his own hand. Has he suddenly slipped into playing a Scum? No. Has he been able to achieve this wheeling-and-dealing attitude without being a Scum? Yes.

So when was this different for an Inquisitor career?

While I agree to an extent that assassin classes and other highly specialized skills should be controlled to an extent people need to stop quoting the rule book and read some lore(No offense but with the 40k universe the sky is the limit just try and avoid powergamers if you wish to).

Here is the most extreme example of inquisitor lore. This is about an iquisitor written by the author Dan Abnet. The inquisitor is called ravenor I advise people read the books about him they are awsome. Ravenor is an inquisitor who has impressive psycher abilities. When he was younger he suffered a horrendous amount of damage in a terroist attack, for all intensive purposes he was dead. Through amazing technology (thankfully he was hurt on a hive world during a parade) they kept him alive. Ravenor lives in a force chair, it feeds him regulates his waste it does everything but breath for him, he cannot move through his own free will. However due to his limited mobility he spent years mastering his psycher abilites. He is a radical to an extent as he has dealing with the eldar (he is one of the few inquisitors who is allowed within the eldar black library). He almost never goes down to the planet with his team rather he uses his mind and his chair which is modified to increase his abilities. His team all where raithbone pendants which allows him to "wear" them using his mind to control their bodies and make them faster a stronger. The point being he is an inquisitor that cannot move and only functions as a very powerful psycher. As I said these books are awsome alwasy remember FFG borrowed the 40k universe they did not create it.

Ravenor was Eisenhorn's Interrogator before the accident, he had gone through extensive training in preparation of making him an Inquisitor - he was not a psyker who was handed a rosette because he was cool and so carried the Inquisitorial title ... he was trained for the position. Since the books don't recognize things like "classes" he was both an Inquisitor and an Alpha level psyker.

Yes, but he wasn't an Inquisitor and a Primaris Psyker at the same time... because you can't be. If you're an Inquisitor, you're an Inquisitor .

BYE

Jack of Tears said:

Agreed. He was groomed to be an Inquisitor. Eisenhorn himself noted that he was gifted enough to become a legend in the Inquisition. But... man, I hate to be the dork-king, he was a delta-level psyker (high delta/low gamma). His force chair had amplifiers that boosted that his powers considerably though which may explain why one of his enemies referred to him as an Alpha.

Canon Alphas are all insane. Too much power.

Returned to our regularly scheduled program...

Everyone's game is different. So do whatever feels right to you but I think we have two questions here...

1. Is a Basic Career Open-Ended?

Definitely. We only have 8 careers and it's been stated several times we're not getting any more. Bounty hunters, criminals, assassins and nobles all fit under Scum. You can fit bounty hunters and Magistratum and special agents under Arbitrator. You can (and need) to adjust Careers to fit good concepts... what Career would Kara Swole be? My most irritating gripe... what the hell is a Noble? The best career ever and almost no way to make it work.

2. Is an Inquisitor's Position/Career Open-Ended?

As noted, your mileage may vary. Personally, I think an Inquisitor needs to have the Inquisitor career. It's a function of specialization and (yes) game balance. This is the girl/guy carrying the rosette. They have to learn politics, diplomacy, varied knowledges and all sorts of other stuff. Just like in real-life, there are no experts in everything. Every second you spend learning one thing takes away from another thing. If Inquisitors were as competent in each area as their Cadre they really wouldn't have much need of them.

Game balance note... same thing, in a game where one character runs the risk of outshining the others by being head honcho, allowing anyone to be the Inquisitor just exacerbates the scenario where other players feel useless.

Zelsior said:

I think it's important to point out that this statement is not entirely accurate. The Imperium and beyond is capable of lots of different ideas and authors as obvious from the many novels put out by the umbrella of 40K/GW. Since every book for DH since Disciples of the Dark Gods has been FFG's and everything coming out for Rogue Trader and Deathwatch are 100% FFG... really, the distinction is worthless. Any contrary interpretation of a company's published product where GW licensing approves every word is pretty demeaning.

Actually, the question is do Careers represent a character archetype (so a greasy, shady, cowardly guardsman would follow the Scum Career, as Scum is the Career/archetype that better fits the character) or, as in D&D, do they represent the role people play in the Imperial society (-"What do you do ? I'm a 4th rank Guardsman" -"Hi, I'm a 2th rank *****. Let's have a drink"). Imo, the writers of DH didn't exactly make up their mind about it, or they disagreed on the matter without knowing it, which complicates things.

My position would be that you do not have to follow the Inquisitor Career to be an Inquisitor. If the Inquisition considers that the character has the needed skills and gives him the Rosette, he is an Inquisitor (would you question the decision of the Inquisitor-Lords ? I wouldn't). However, is the character likely to be judged worthy of the Rosette if he doesn't follow the Inquisitor Career ? Nope. Picking the Inquisitor Career means you are prepared to become an Inquisitor. There's no doubt about it so you get the Rosette. The Inquisitor-Lords might, under exceptional circumstances, if the guy has all the needed skills and talents using elite advances (that means 'lots of xp and game time burned to teach the character things he has to know if he is to be an Inquisitor') and if his records are spotless, pick a character who follows a different career and give him the Rosette. Of course, I would then immediately end his current career and tailor-make a transition to the Inquisitor Career. After all, from this moment on, he is an Inquisitor so there's no reason for him to continue learning Primaris or Desperado stuff.

TheFlatline said:

I think everyone should reread Flatline's post I quoted here. It's pretty obvious that a PC who isn't an Inquisitor is not an Inquisitor. They are a "Throne Agent", and while they might wield some similar authority, they are NOT Inquisitors, badge or not.

dvang said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure once they have that badge they're an Inquisitor, it's up to you as to who gets that badge and what strings come with it(such as having to play the Inquisitor class).

dvang said:

I am relatively sure, this, as everything else. Is the GMs call.

The fluff for an Inquisitor entails as has been said before, the Inquisitor choosing to elevate them to a full member of the Ordos and confirmation by at least 3 other Inquisitors of equal rank.

If the GM chooses to allow players outside the Inquisitor career to be given the Rosette then such is their prerogative.

I am of the line that the career does not the Inquisitor make. And before anyone jumps my statement please think of it in the following light.

The Inquisitor at the time of becoming such, does NOT possess those skills you all seem to indicate make him who he is. At the entrance to Rank 9, The newly minted Inquisitor draws on the skillset of a different career and gains access to those skills you say define his existence. Well if it takes a specific kind of individual to become an Inquisitor, then which career defines such? It cannot be Inquisitor since that is that which they gain AFTER. If you look at it in this light a less than Orthodox Inquisitor could be minted from any career. And what they do after their being given the Rosette has NO bearing on whether or not they were given it in the first place. Should they take the Inquisitor career if they intend to be Orthodox and Stereotypical? Yes. Do they have to? I think not.

So as such in my games it works thusly.

You may become an Inquisitor outside of the Inquisitor career, after which you may take Inquisitorial ranks as alternate advancement ranks as you progress through your Ascended career. You may also purchase Inquisitor Advances as Elite Advances. This style of Inquisitor is oft looked down upon by Monodominants.

Alexis

*smiles*

The Hobo Hunter said:

Thankyou, oh God thankyou. You explicated the point a good deal better than I could, apparently!

Trying once more to crudely communicate my point, the Inquisitor career should not be, in my own humble opinion, interpereted as a mandatory choice for an Inquisitor PC, but rather as a default, or "Vanilla" option. If the player wants to use it, fine, but if they don't, that's fine too.

I still say an Inquisitor of the the Adept/Sage Sage disposition would be awesome, like Doctor Who with head tubes, and a significantly lower appreciation for the inherent value of a human life and a Bolter.

I'm of the opinion that only characters using Inquisitor's "profession" are, well, actual Inquisitors. Being an Inquisitor is not just a title, it's a full-time job, and one that demands specific qualities. Sure, everyone regardless of the profession can have what amounts to an inquisitorial mindset, but pretty much every other profession is lacking in some regard compared to what an Inquisitor's job demands. A crusader might be good at smiting evil, but he actually needs an Inquisitor to show him where to smite, because he lacks both the necessary knowledge and crucial social skills. A Desperado can be even better than the Inquisitor is when it comes to amassing influence and smooth-talking his way to the information he needs, but he has virtually no skills that would let him put this information into a proper context and make an informed choice that benefits the Empire in a way inquisitor's choices should. And don't get me started on Storm-Troopers, they are nothing but glorified guardsmen and the only benefit they can bring into the Inquisition is their military might. What the Inquisition needs is a guy who can manipulate through byzantine intrigues of the Conclave and various Adeptus organizations, who can recognize heresy when he sees it and who has a mind durable enough to deal with cosmic horrors on a daily basis. Only the profession of the Inquisitor can fully live up to those demands. All the others are just assets to be used, some of them **** powerful assets, but in the long run they would be lost without an actual Inquisitor guiding them.

If you'd rather spend time learning anti-daemonic kung-fu in a cloister or attaining true mastery of your psychic powers than learn how to shield your mind against dark temptations just as it is filled with mind-twisting lore, clearly you don't have what it takes to be the Inquisitor. Just take whatever career best suits your interests and stop whining about this Rosette, it was never meant for you in the first place.

Morangias said:

I'll see your argument and raise you the Sage class, which can do everything the Inquisitor you listed can do, and gets a bigger bonus to knowing what kind of evil he faces.

Bombernoy said:

Really? So the Sage can reap the benefits of automatically succeeding on a Willpower test one per game, on top of his Unnatural Willpower? He can halve each and every dose of either Insanity or Corruption he gets? Can further advance his Psychic powers? Or maybe he gets the same kind of balanced training the Inquisitor needs, ranging from forbidden lore to interaction skills to being able to pilot every craft, and mixed with unparalleled political acumen, all at first rank?

Being the Inquisitor is so much more than just being good with forbidden lore. The Inquisitor is the only profession with the opportunity to cover all the necessary bases from the very beginning, and he only gets better at it as he goes. Everyone else is a specialist, some of them can outdo the Inquisitor in their game, but they can never hope to cover all the necessary bases.

EDIT: Oh, and if you want an Inquisitor that does things a tad bit differently, Elite Advances are there for you.

Morangias said:

Bombernoy said:

Unnatural Willpower + automatic success on one Willpower roll per session beats every amount of "vanilla" Willpower the Sage may have bought. Unnatural Intelligence is cool alright, but nowhere as useful in the Inquisitorial work as Unnatural Willpower (and also kinda redundant considering Sage's special traits, but that's beside the point).

Sage is lacking heavily in Influence Talents, and influence over all kinds of Imperial organizations is the foundation of inquisitorial job. Sages have absolutely no combat training except for those few things they can get out of their previous careers as Adepts. Sages who have psychic powers from their previous career still miss out on improving them and on those nifty Ascended Powers. Adepts/Sages have to pay a lot to get all the "inquisitorial utility" (piloting everything, all social/investigative skills etc.) by picking up whatever they have on their previous ranks whereas a proper Inquisitor can get the whole bundle at +20 at his first rank for under 3000 exp. Sage can never set up an Acolyte Network.

If that sounds like being equal to the Inquisitor, then perhaps you misinterpret what the Inquisitor is supposed to do in the first place.

Morangias said:

I don't recall Inquisitors having a universal set of classes, lectures, and abilities they must learn to become an Inquisitor. Maybe multiple Interrogators of a particular master would undergo this, but it's a far cry from universal.

Going back to the Adept->Sage example:

Our trusty Adept has undergone his transition package, and he and the rest of the group are approached by their inquisitor as a prelude to the game. The Inquisitor meets with the Adept in private, and describes to him how he has always been seen as the most useful member of the cell, backing up his superior knowledge with resolute determination and a quick and righteous trigger finger, always tempered by his quiet and uncompromising devotion and contemplation of the Imperial Creed (let's say he rolled awesomely for his character and lucked out in the few really hairy situations he honestly shouldn't have escaped from). Obviously such an individual is most deserving of being sponsored as an Inquisitor. Much better than that socialite scum or that corrupt arbitrator, who's arses the Adept was always saving with a quick word and a silenced autopistol.

The Adept turns solemnly to his master, and in the dim light of the abandoned cathedral says "Okay, I'll have that rosette you minted for me and take the mantle of Inquisitor to safeguard the Imperium!" The Inquisitor is overjoyed at his acolyte's willingness to put on a brave face and do his duty. He announces this to the Throne Agents as they meet together for their first assignment. EVeryone is a little bummed (in-character) that the pushy Adept has been promotoed to their new boss, especially since they really liked their pre-ascension Inquisitor who is now sending them off with the guy who always stopped them having fun.

After the adventure, the party are spending their XP when the GM notices the Inquisitor is buying advances from the Sage tree instead of the Inquisitor one.

"What the hell are you doing?!" he screams. "You're an Inquisitor now! You can't be a Librarian!"

The Inquisitor's player looks at the GM and says "Well, I always figured old Thaddius was a bit of a bookworm. He's much more likely to spend his downtimes reading up on holy tomes and daemonbinding than he is currying favour with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Besides, look at his Fellowship. I'm not spending another 2000 XP just so he can start taking Good Rep talents he'll never use and he'd never want to pursue.

The Sage career fits him way better; it's totally more of a Thaddius thing."

IMHO, none of what Thaddius, our "Inquisitor" player has sad, is untrue (assuming what he said about his character was accurate). What stops an Inquisitor from being a bookworm if he wants? Not all Inquisitors, according to all the canon I've read, have a unique piece of DNA which forces them to attain a particular career and undergo particular talents.

They pursue things in the style which befits them best. As, you know, Inquisitors have the freedom to do.

Morangias said:

How about an Inquisitor who does things a lot differently, as is his or her choice, right and perogative to do so? Also, other careers get Elite Advances too, all of them, last time I checked.

"Or maybe he gets the same kind of balanced training the Inquisitor needs, ranging from forbidden lore to interaction skills to being able to pilot every craft, and mixed with unparalleled political acumen, all at first rank?"

Inquisitors recieve no special training, mandatory or otherwise. They use their authority to gain access to whatever training institutions they desire, or they don't and just get straight to the business of saving the Imperium. Eisenhorn couldn't pilot his own Guncutter. Witch Hunter Tyrus had all the political acument of an angry toaster oven on legs.

"Being the Inquisitor is so much more than just being good with forbidden lore."

Being a Sage is so much more than being good with forbidden lore. Being an Inquisitor is about Authority and Responsibility, not a magic spell that makes you just like every other Inquisitor the moment you're handed the rosette. We're not the Blood Angels here.

"The Inquisitor is the only profession with the opportunity to cover all the necessary bases from the very beginning, and he only gets better at it as he goes. Everyone else is a specialist, some of them can outdo the Inquisitor in their game, but they can never hope to cover all the necessary bases."

There are no "necessary bases". Unlimited authority is the only common attribute shared by all Inquisitors. This is deliberate, and the diversity of it's members is both it's strength and fodder for much of the intrigue and rich lore that surrounds the organisation.

Morangias said:

"Unnatural Willpower + automatic success on one Willpower roll per session beats every amount of "vanilla" Willpower the Sage may have bought. Unnatural Intelligence is cool alright, but nowhere as useful in the Inquisitorial work as Unnatural Willpower (and also kinda redundant considering Sage's special traits, but that's beside the point). "

I refer you to Soul of Stone in the Ascention book. Automatically passing almost every type of Willpower roll kinda lessens the value of Willpower for non-Psykers, which by no means all Inquisitors are.

" Sage is lacking heavily in Influence Talents, and influence over all kinds of Imperial organizations is the foundation of inquisitorial job. "

True, but Influence talents alone do not a career make, and the entire party's Influence chart is used for Influence tests. That said, the Inquisitor Career is mostly influence talents, true.

" Sages have absolutely no combat training except for those few things they can get out of their previous careers as Adepts. "

Not all Inquisitors are combat wombats. And a Sage can easily be, or become compotent in a fight if they desire, the afforementioned "Doctor Who with a Boltgun."

" Sages who have psychic powers from their previous career still miss out on improving them and on those nifty Ascended Powers. "

Again, not every Inquisitor is a Psyker, that's the beauty of choice, don't have to be a Psyker, don't have to want to be.

"Adepts/Sages have to pay a lot to get all the "inquisitorial utility" (piloting everything, all social/investigative skills etc.) by picking up whatever they have on their previous ranks whereas a proper Inquisitor can get the whole bundle at +20 at his first rank for under 3000 exp."

Not terribly relevant, not all Inquisitors are "Jacks of all Trades." But it's good to note that the "Vanilla" Inquisitor career is very generic and thinly spread like that, because no two Inquisitors are alike.

"Sage can never set up an Acolyte Network."

Actually Ascention clearly states that you can, and encourages GM's to award Influence talents a character has "earned" through play, including talents not in their advance scheme, either as elite advances or even for free.

Of course, everything in an RPG is the GM's call. That's a total cop-out, though.

This is the same issue as saying a "Rogue Trader" in RT doesn't have to be the RT career. Technically, sure, the GM can allow it. However, the intent of the game and the game designers, is that a PC in the Rogue Trader career is the "Rogue Trader".

It is no different for this. The intent is that an Inquisitor career PC is the Inquisitor. Anyone else is a "Throne Agent". You, as the GM, certainly *could* allow a non-Inquisitor career PC to become an "Inquisitor" by GM fiat. It is certainly not the norm, and should be the rare exception though. If it works for your group and their story-line, go ahead. Just don't deceive yourself, and others, that it is "well within the rules" to do so. Be aware that you've house ruled that non-Inquisitors can become Inquisitors (which in no way breaks the game, by the way).

Alright, let's turn this argument over it's head. If any career can represent an Inquisitor, then what about other Careers swapping their fluff with each other? Say, a guy who wants to be a Storm Trooper but with Advances from the Vindicare career because he feels it better represents his particular Storm Trooper training? Or an Adept who wants to be a Sage fluff-wise but picks up the Desperado path because he reasons he's more social- and action-oriented in his approach to finding and hoarding wisdom?

How much sense do you think any of those make? And why do you think it's so much different for the Inquisitor?