How do they work together? Thx

No.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

No.

U

I don't believe they do. Hera triggers on Red or Blue maneuvers. If you use Leia, the Red maneuvers are now White, and Hera can't trigger.

33 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I don't believe they do. Hera triggers on Red or Blue maneuvers. If you use Leia, the Red maneuvers are now White, and Hera can't trigger.

Leia/Hera: I agree with this. Leia kinda shuts down Hera for "red" moves.

Seasoned Navigator/Leia: With Leia active, you'd be able to turn your dial to formerly-red maneuvers of the same speed. I think the final maneuvers stay the same difficulty as their original dial colors (white or red). I think there's an example in the rules reference of one increase and one decrease of maneuver difficulty cancelling each other out.

Hera/Seasoned Navigator: I think many tricks work, under certain conditions. With Seasoned Navigator I think the important thing is that SN doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver until you try to execute it. You couldn't, for example, use Seasoned Navigator on a 2-speed maneuver, turn to a 2-hard, try to claim this was red, to change it to a K-Turn with Hera. The 2-hard isn't red yet, it would still be white when Hera wants to act on it. As such, you'd have more options for turning from a red move into something else.

• Starting Red
  • to the K-Turn
  • to any 3-speed, treating as red
  • to any 1 speed, treating as red unless 1-straight, which is white(*)
• Starting Blue
  • to 1 straight (blue) or bank (treating the banks as red)
  • to any 2-speed. hard are red, others are blue (since only Hera is used on straight/bank 2 speeds from a blue reveal)
• Starting non-red 3
  • any 3 bank or straight, treating as red
• Starting 2-hard
  • any 2-speed, treating hards as red, others as white(*)
    • Actually, the 2-banks and straight might be blue. Seasoned Navigator might be read as only treating the maneuver you turned to as an increased difficulty, and if you used Hera to change it to a 3rd maneuver, that might grant an exception. Change from a 2-hard to a 2-straight with SN, use Hera to change to a 2-bank, for example.
    • I'm not sure on that; it seems like something worth considering. It'd certainly be safe to count these as White, though. I'll mark these with with an asterisk.
  • 1-straight, treated as white(*)
• Starting 1-bank
  • 1-straight as white(*); 1-bank as red
  • 2 bank or straight, treating as white(*)

//

Putting that together, (Leia means you can't Hera between Reds anymore) I think the only new interaction for all three is that if you reveal a 2-speed Blue maneuver, you could Hera to a 1-straight, Seasoned Navigator to the now-white 1-hard, and execute an ultimately red 1-hard.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Leia/Hera: I agree with this. Leia kinda shuts down Hera for "red" moves.

Seasoned Navigator/Leia: With Leia active, you'd be able to turn your dial to formerly-red maneuvers of the same speed. I think the final maneuvers stay the same difficulty as their original dial colors (white or red). I think there's an example in the rules reference of one increase and one decrease of maneuver difficulty cancelling each other out.

Hera/Seasoned Navigator: I think many tricks work, under certain conditions. With Seasoned Navigator I think the important thing is that SN doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver until you try to execute it. You couldn't, for example, use Seasoned Navigator on a 2-speed maneuver, turn to a 2-hard, try to claim this was red, to change it to a K-Turn with Hera. The 2-hard isn't red yet, it would still be white when Hera wants to act on it. As such, you'd have more options for turning from a red move into something else.

• Starting Red
  • to the K-Turn
  • to any 3-speed, treating as red
  • to any 1 speed, treating as red unless 1-straight, which is white(*)
• Starting Blue
  • to 1 straight (blue) or bank (treating the banks as red)
  • to any 2-speed. hard are red, others are blue (since only Hera is used on straight/bank 2 speeds from a blue reveal)
• Starting non-red 3
  • any 3 bank or straight, treating as red
• Starting 2-hard
  • any 2-speed, treating hards as red, others as white(*)
    • Actually, the 2-banks and straight might be blue. Seasoned Navigator might be read as only treating the maneuver you turned to as an increased difficulty, and if you used Hera to change it to a 3rd maneuver, that might grant an exception. Change from a 2-hard to a 2-straight with SN, use Hera to change to a 2-bank, for example.
    • I'm not sure on that; it seems like something worth considering. It'd certainly be safe to count these as White, though. I'll mark these with with an asterisk.
  • 1-straight, treated as white(*)
• Starting 1-bank
  • 1-straight as white(*); 1-bank as red
  • 2 bank or straight, treating as white(*)

//

Putting that together, (Leia means you can't Hera between Reds anymore) I think the only new interaction for all three is that if you reveal a 2-speed Blue maneuver, you could Hera to a 1-straight, Seasoned Navigator to the now-white 1-hard, and execute an ultimately red 1-hard.

Oh, and it only gets better with Nien. Essentially, you can lock in any bank maneuver, change it to any speed with hera, then navigator it to any other maneuver of that speed. Thus, a 3-bank can be literally any 1-3 speed maneuver (if I'm interpreting it correctly).

12 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Oh, and it only gets better with Nien. Essentially, you can lock in any bank maneuver, change it to any speed with hera, then navigator it to any other maneuver of that speed. Thus, a 3-bank can be literally any 1-3 speed maneuver (if I'm interpreting it correctly).

With Nien... Without Leia, Seasoned navigator can't turn you to a 1 or 3 hard turn. If I'm reading it right, starting on any blue could give you 1-2-3 bank (as blue), 1-2-3 straight (blue, but red 3 straight), or 2-hards (as red).

//

In some ways, it isn't too hard to figure stuff out once Nien is in the picture.

1. SN to any move of the same speed. If it's blue, Hera to another blue.
2. Hera between reds or blues (as appropriate), then SN to something of the same speed.

Either way, if SN is used, justice demands the final move goes up 1 difficulty, but there is a non-trivial argument that changing between Blues on Hera after SN could bring it back to blue. It clearly doesn't work like that in the real world, where changing your address doesn't mean you can skip out on the bills from the old address.

Still, the principles aren't too hard to apply. It's just awkward to try to list every possibility. I know I missed at least one above. I think you could Hera from any Red into a 4K, and then SN into a 4-straight, treating it as Red.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

In some ways, it isn't too hard to figure stuff out once Nien is in the picture.

1. SN to any move of the same speed. If it's blue, Hera to another blue.
2. Hera between reds or blues (as appropriate), then SN to something of the same speed.

I'm not convinced this would work, because while Hera/SN allow you to change the dial, you don't reveal the dial a second time.

8 minutes ago, Maui. said:

I'm not convinced this would work, because while Hera/SN allow you to change the dial, you don't reveal the dial a second time.

You only ever revealed a dial once in 1e, too, and Hera/Navigator had the same trigger. But FFG ruled that it worked.

Now, 2e seems like a [marginally?][somewhat?][substantially?] more precise edition, but the last we heard from FFG was that the basic structure of using two different reveal/change maneuver effects worked.

I mean, even a whisper from FFG that it wouldn't work, and I'm 100% on board with being unable to apply two reveal/change effects. Is there something specific in 2e that indicates it wouldn't work, when it worked in 1e? Was there something specific I missed?

Ability que? They share the same trigger so I think it applies.

Thanks for all the explanations everyone. I think im going to ditch seasoned navigator for nien. Hera + navigator hurts my head too much.

Being able to dial in a left 1 bank (realize ur going to be in a kill box or blocked) and then change it to a 3 right bank and shoot out the butt with a turret seems great to me. Especially with a bid for other I5s. Hera really got a nice buff from the old PS7. Ill also keep leia for the hot white k turns.