Looking at it not as a female character, but more as a novelty character, we are after all dealing with a person who communicates only in a secret sign language only known to her peers, when ever she interact with non sisters she uses a novice that still has not taken the vow , but has learned the code. While it might be fun or a session or two they would make very bad long term characters with little or no interaction with npcs or the other players beyond talking in "boltgun" capitals and then standing around looking brooding.

There's absolutely no evidence of the Sisters of Silence existing at any other time period than the Heresy. At a guess they took massive casualties and were effectively disbanded during the later parts of the Heresy and the survivors were absorbed into the Officio Assassinorum and what would become the Inquisition.

What isn't speculation in my part is that they are no match for Space Marines. A bunch of them are assigned to assist Russ in bringing down Magnus in Thousand Sons and they are quickly and easily killed by Thousand Sons marines when they realize that the Sisters are the ones screwing up their sorcery.

UncleArkie said:

I agree that it does not look like these Sisters are around much lately, so I guess I need to be a little creative if I insist on having them around in my campaign.

On another note, the silence issue is not really a problem, since Sisters of Silence are known to understand Astartes battle signs, and if the SM players learn the Sisters sign language, you can just assume that they understand each other without too much effort, i.e. they can talk freely without having to role play it. NPC interaction could be a challenge now and then, but I kinda see it as a strength that can be roleplayed on.

Sure its a roleplaying opportunity to play on once in a while, but its not too much fun in the long run. As for the sisters themselves they are still around as far as I can see, responsible for the black ships, now the only example I can come up with right off my toes is that one of the side effects of being sanctionite in the DH book is being afraid of bald women.

UncleArkie said:

That's a funny jab at Dune, just to point out, because all Bene Gesserits (women with various "psychic" powers) in that setting are bald women, and use techniques such as nerve induction (they use it in the Dune movie on Paul Atrades) in their training of those with potential powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit

So sorry, but that bit has nothing to do with the Sisters of Silence.

Atheosis said:

Just a small nit-pick here: according to the most recent DH books, it is the Adaptus Astratelepathica that are responsible for running the Black Ships, anticipating, and collecting the Psyker Tithe. The Inquisition isn't responsible for any part of the Imperium or how it is run. Ideally, the Imperium is supposed to run without the intervention of the Inquisition, but it is far from an ideal world. They are the trouble shooters and step in when things fail. Saddling them with one of the greatest responsibilities in the Imperium would tie them down and keep them from being the roving trouble-shooters they are supposed to be. So, the Adaptus Astratelepathica handles the gathering and sanctioning of psykers but Inquisitors do like to hitch rides on the Black Ships to monitor psyker populations, find anomalies in psyker tithes, hunt rogue psykers running from the ship when it arrives, conduct secret blasphemous experiments on the spykers taken aboard, etc, but they're not in charge of the show... though like anything, they could take over the show if they wanted to.

Of course, none of that has any bearing on whether the Sisters were absorbed into the fledgling Inquisition or not, which seems like a logical thing to have happened. So, sorry for being a touch off topic.

Graver said:

There are two types of Black Ships: Inquisitorial and those of Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Seeing as the Adeptus Astra Telepathica are an organization responsible for regulation and training of Imperial psykers, and are therefore likely all psykers themselves, I just didn't think the connection made as much sense seeing as the Sisters of Silence were all blanks. Therefore I didn't mention them.

There is not a single reference to anything resembling the Sisters of Silence involved with the Adeptus Astrotelepathicus or the psyker tithe. Zero. And frankly, there shouldn't be. Untouchables make psykers look common. They're too valuable to waste babysitting psykers that can be handled by more conventional means. The Culluxes Shrine and the Inquisition, organizations that didn't come into their own until after the Heresy, both have far more urgent needs for Untouchables and even more clout than the Adepta Astrotelepathicus.

The entry on the Sisters of Silence in Lexicanum begins by stating:

"The Sisters of Silence, also known as the Silent Sisterhood, were the militant arm of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica during the Great Crusade, and were internally referred to as the organization's Departmento Investigates."

Although there is no current canonical information which establishes the status of this group in the 41st millennium, there is similarly no information confirming that they have ceased to exist, or have been absorbed into other organisations.

In the absence of clearer canonical information, I think it is up to individual gaming groups to determine if, and how, they apply the Sisters to their campaigns. I agree that roleplaying a Sister of Silence would present some serious challenges on a session to session basis, but this kind of "disability" does present opportunities for the dedicated roleplayer (although their group may have other feelings...)

Here's the thing with the lack of information: the burden of proof is on the side asserting that something exists. My claims about invisible flying elephants existing slighty out of phase with our material universe do not exist on equal footing with the contrary argument that there are no such thing. By saying such elephants exist I making a positive claim and must support it. We do know:

1) that Untouchables are very, very rare

2) The Inquisition and the Officio Assassinorum both use them and both organizations didn't exist in their current, Untouchable using forms during the Heresy era.

3) There are no post Heresy references to the Sisters.

Now a GM can do whatever the hell he wants. You can run a 40K game where the Tau rule half the galaxy, there are female space marines, and the Emperor has walked off the Golden Throne if you want to. There's nothing wrong with running a game where the Sisters of Silence still exist and serve the Astra Telepathicus or are a secret Inquisition order.

I am very interested in these out-of-phase-flying-elephants of which you speak, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

An interesting thing this burden of proof.

Rather than make assertions that the Sisters of Silence no longer exist because there is no information describing their role in the 41st millennium, we might consider the problem thus:

1) The Sisters of Silence pre-date the Horus Heresy, and were active during the Heresy as the militant arm of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

2) Development and innovation within the Imperium virtually ceased with the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne.

3) In the absence of information confirming the demise or reassignment of the Sisters of Silence, one may assume that their organisation retains its original function and purpose.

I agree that untouchables are rare, but so are powerful, stable psykers, and the Inquisition has it's fair share of these as well. I also agree that both the Inquisition and the Officio Assassinorum have a desperate need for Untouchables (and Pariahs). This would not be the first instance of Imperial organizations competing for limited resources.

One thing I cannot do, based on the information currently at hand, is categorically deny that the Sisters of Silence exist as an organisation in the 41st millennium, on the basis that the fluff has not focussed on them post Heresy, or that Untouchables make Psykers look common

I would like to believe that the fate of the Sisters will be revealed in canon at some later point, and that they may well have been dissolved, wiped out or something equally distressing and gratifying. Until then it's anybody's guess.

Powerful, stable psykers are far more common than Untouchables. The Officio Assassinorum and the proto-Inquisition are in their infancy during the Heresy, but they will become two of the Imperium's most powerful organizations and both will have demands on the tiny supply of Untouchables.

The burden of proof is on those making an affirmative statement, that the Sisters of Silence exist in the 41st Millenium, just as the burden of proof is on someone making the statement that Tzeentch will emerge victorious over the Imperium of Man, the Necrons, the Tyranids, and the other Gods of Chaos. Until there is supporting evidence of some kind, canon does not support their existence.

Now is there room for them to be retroactively added to the 41st Millenium in one of GW's infamous retcons? Of course there is. Might GW do so? Only the Flying Spaghetti Monster knows. Can a GM include them in his campaign? Sure. Nothing wrong with that.

Practically speaking, they really don't serve a roll anymore. We've seen Black Ship collections in the fiction and background material and there's no sign of the Sisters. The Imperium can handle their psykers without them. The increased use of psykers allows the Imperium to fight fire with fire, further diminishing the necessity. And when you absolutely need an Untouchable and ass kicking? Well the Inquisition and the Assassins fill that slot better than the Sisters ever could.

Cynical Cat said:

The function of a thing is much less important than its coolness factor when it comes to 40k. And the Sisters of Silence definitely have a fair bit of coolness factor going on.

theboyidiot said:

Actually, its been stated in several pieces of cannon that Untouchables are much, much rarer than Psykers.

As for the whole idea of the SoS, I'm of the opinion that they are more than likely around, but much like the Custodes, don't take an overly active role in the actual running of the Imperium. And my reasoning is this: Certain groups had far more knowledge than others of the Emperors ideas for the Imperium (the Custodes being the most prominent), and after he put Horus down and was put on the Golden Throne, they didn't really oppose the High Lords, but they didn't support them either (look at poor Vandire.) Its not to much of a stretch to imagine the SoS doing the same. But, thats just me.

Could the Sisters be introduced based on their (highly debatable) coolness and the desire for GW to sell minatures? Sure. When that happens, 41st Millenium Sisters will be canon. Can a GM have them in his game anyway? Yep. I personally don't understand their appeal (40K has legions of cooler badass warrior chicks) but there are perverts out there who like Tau so whatever makes you happy.

Cynical Cat said:

You think Sisters of Battle are cooler than Untouchable Sisters of Battle? Okay...

MILLANDSON said:

No offense taken, my house rules is such that I (as GM) don't like the idea and nip any such ideas as "I'll just squeeze these together to get what I want" from my groups, but then again I know the guys people I'm playing with. I really did not intend for that to be interpreted as "I don't think any guy ever should play a female."

If it's any consolation I play an all SOB army (for Witch Hunters) for 40k.

And sorry for RE-straying of topic.

Dodskrigaren said:

I agree completely.

I meant to imply that although Untouchables are less common than Pyskers, this is not enough of a reason to believe that the Sisters of Silence no longer exist in the 41st Millennium.

Atheosis said:

I think Sisters of Silence are lame. The idea of a warrior-sisterhood that won't use verbal communication is several steps beyond silly in an age of warfare where coordination via vox and other means is standard. Considering they're specialist anti-psyker troops, correct battlefield deployment is essential and they take a vow that hinders communication. Compared to the Assassins they are unskilled, compared to the Sororitas they are underequiped, compared to the Imperial Guard they are unprofessional, compared to the Eldar they are slow and clumsy, and taking a vow of silence means can't shout cool things like "Hold in the name of the Inquisition!".

Cynical Cat said:

Can you please point to some cannon that says they deploy badly? Or that they are underequipped compared to the Soritas? Or that they are unprofessional? The cannon I've read on them states pretty much the opposite of almost everything you said.

The only areas I might see you having a point in is a Temple Assassin, but then a DW Marine should, statistcally, die to a Temple Assassin, and the Eldar are, outside of demons, some of the fastest and most graceful beings, I fail to see why you bring them up.

theboyidiot said:

theboyidiot said:

By itself? Of course not. It's merely one piece of evidence against the Sisters of Silence continuing to exist. However, that's not the point. Stating that the Sisters of Silence canonically exist is making an affirmitive argument, which must be supported with evidence just as the argument that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the Fifth, secret Great God of Chaos must be supported by evidence.

As I've said, a GM shouldn't feel bound by that. If a GM wants Squat Armies or Sisters of Silence in his game, he or she should feel free to do so.

Cynical Cat said:

Just as saying they don't exist needs to be supported as well. My whole entire point of view on the subject is this:

They did during the Heresy. Theres no cannon answer to if they were disbanded, destroyed, absorbed, went underground, stuck around, whatever, so that means until some peice of cannon coming along one way or the other comes along, GM's get to make the call for their own games.

Dodskrigaren said:

Dodskrigaren said:

The don't use voice communication and they certainly can't use psychic communication. Therefore, their ability to coordinate with each other and other arms of the Imperium is greatly hindered as they can't speak over voxes. Since they're specialist troops that need to be where a specific class of enemy is, that's even more of a handicap than it is for other troop types. Good communications is an important military asset, vows which hinder and prevent communication over the most common communication network (the vox in 40K) are unprofessional and a handicap. Poor communications means that its harder to get them to the parts of the battlefield where they are needed. Any large scale engagement will spread over kilometers and handsign is only good at close range, when your hands aren't full of weapons. Any 40K force that doesn't employ effective communication methods, whether technological or psychic, is unprofessional.

Sororitas wear power armour, so they are much better equiped. Considering each Sister of Silence is a highly rare specialist soldier whose talents make them a prime target for conventional weapons on any battlefield where they're worth deploying, it's particularly telling in their case.

Eldar are brought up because they have cool warrior chicks in their ranks. Ditto for Assassins, which even have a whole shrine of terrifyingly deadly Untouchable warriors. So when we talk about "cool warrior chicks" they get included and the Sisters come up lacking (in my subjective personal opinion, of course). How "cool" Sisters are is a subjective personal opinion and I won't try to convince anyone otherwise, but I will explain why I don't think they're cool.

Dodskrigaren said:

The **** thing just ate my big long post, so I'm going to be keep this short and sweet.

They aren't equal arguments. Asserting the Sisters exist is a positive argument, which needs to no only withstand counter arguments, but do so in a way that still convincingly makes its point. It doesn't. At all. It consists of "Sisters once existed. Despite the fact that there is no mention of their current existence, especially in areas that cover their jobs and specialty such as the Inquisition and the Black Ships, despite the fact that other organizations now recruit the tiny number of Untouchables, they must somehow still exist despite absolutely zero supporting evidence."

It's a lousy argument. You know its a lousy argument, because you're trying to throw the burden of proof back on to me, despite the fact that I've already provided plenty of evidence on why their continued existence is unlikely.

Can you still have them in your game world despite their not being canon? Absolutely, go ahead. I'm not trying to talk you out of it. You want to say they're canonically still existing in M41? Prove it. Give me a sound, logical argument that strongly supports their current existence despite their notable absence from the field of their specialty. If you can't, then you're going to have to wait for GW to slip them into a modern novel or codex.

Cynical Cat said:

See, your saying I said they exist in the 41st milleum according to cannon, something I never said. Just said they could. Theres /no/ cannon either way to resolve the issue, at which point, the arguement that they exist, or that they don't, is a matter of opinion and personal taste. Chill a little and dial it back man.