Aight, so with the Republic dropping soon-ish (TM) , there will inevitably be the introduction of a new Howlrunner/Drea: Sinker the ARC-170, who gives friendlies in his side arcs rerolls.

He's got a medium base and a good range for his ability (that does not work on himself), can pump out damage himself through the front or the back, will be Hypserspace legal like Howlrunner, and has a slight edge over Drea in terms of survivability without paying Howlrunner's cost of a tagalong Iden and the prayers of not rolling below average on green. But on the other hand, he will surely cost more than Drea unless he gets an agressive fledgling faction discount.

Granted we know nothing about point specifics, but how do you see him functioning? The obvious V-19 swarm linchpin, or a Jedi escort? Or cram as many ARC's and their firing arcs in one list with him as the damage buff-er? And don't suggest instinctive aim cluster missile Jedi, because his ability is primary only.

big Sinker fan. opens ups some different swarm styles and will create an entire new way to formation fly.

11 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

big Sinker fan. opens ups some different swarm styles and will create an entire new way to formation fly.

Loose formations are adaptable and have an easier time blocking and avoiding getting blocked!

I see fielding Sinker, Axe, and Swoop as being a thing. They are all I3 so you can move them and shoot with them in whatever order is most beneficial. You make a gate with them with Sinker as the hinge and then Swoop and Axe. You use Swoop's grant of a boost ability for whoever needs to speed up to swing the line around and Sinker and Axe share their abilities along the line.

I'd look for him to be in the fifty point range since that is what the I3 Rebel ARC costs.

Do you think we'll fly other ARC-170s alongside him or dip into the Delta-7 or V-19 Torrent?

Without points it's a bit difficult to answer but I'm curious if something like 4/5 V-19s + Sinker will be a list we can build. I have a feeling Sinker will be too expensive to get much more beside him than that.

EDIT: Maybe I'm over-costing V-19s as well in my assumptions. Should be around the quadrijet, yeah?

8 minutes ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

EDIT: Maybe I'm over-costing V-19s as well in my assumptions. Should be around the quadrijet, yeah?

Lower. Quads are 32 base thanks largely to their tractor action. I see the V-19 at most costing in the 25-26 range per ship with 23-24 being the most likely. With it being a 2/2/5/0 with a missile slot, mod slot and a dial slightly more open than a B-Wing's for dog fighting/maneuvering having the basic generic chassis above the mid 20's cost wise would almost certainly lock it out from the table.

16 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Lower. Quads are 32 base thanks largely to their tractor action. I see the V-19 at most costing in the 25-26 range per ship with 23-24 being the most likely. With it being a 2/2/5/0 with a missile slot, mod slot and a dial slightly more open than a B-Wing's for dog fighting/maneuvering having the basic generic chassis above the mid 20's cost wise would almost certainly lock it out from the table.

The only caveat to the V-19 cost is whether it's one missile slot or 2. If it's 2 then the base V19 likely is 27 points because barrage rockets equipped to them make them 34 pts which is above the 33 pt spot of bringing 6. It seems like a thing FFG would do if that's the case.

If only 1 missile slot, then it's a bit hard to tell. On one hand the statline would make you think quadjumper price, but without it's spacetug ability which is a huge deal for those. Or compare it to the Scyk that has 1 less health, but does have a shield along with 3 agility and access to any non turret secondary weapon of choice. Then you look at the dial and think of it like a b-wing lite with the lite part being 1 step longer kturn and talon roll. Only 1 missile slot, yeah I agree around 24-25, but make it 2 missile slots and I expect 27.

23 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Lower. Quads are 32 base thanks largely to their tractor action. I see the V-19 at most costing in the 25-26 range per ship with 23-24 being the most likely. With it being a 2/2/5/0 with a missile slot, mod slot and a dial slightly more open than a B-Wing's for dog fighting/maneuvering having the basic generic chassis above the mid 20's cost wise would almost certainly lock it out from the table.

They just upped the TIE Bomber from 28 to 30 though, and the V-19 is very similar. Dials and actions bars are slightly different but similar in power, with Bombers having +1 hull and more upgrade options. Seeing as the statline is somewhere between a Z-95 and a TIE Bomber, I'd assume the cost to be somewhere in there was well. Evade, especially a linked evade, on an agility 2 ship is very powerful.

5 minutes ago, Okapi said:

They just upped the TIE Bomber from 28 to 30 though, and the V-19 is very similar. Dials and actions bars are slightly different but similar in power, with Bombers having +1 hull and more upgrade options. Seeing as the statline is somewhere between a Z-95 and a TIE Bomber, I'd assume the cost to be somewhere in there was well. Evade, especially a linked evade, on an agility 2 ship is very powerful.

🤨 Z-95 has 1 less hp, can soak 2 crits, has the same 2 die primary and can carry any missile other than barrage rockets. TIE/sa has the same 2 die primary, 1 more hp, reload (red, but still has the action), 2 missile slots, Torp slot, device slot and can sling devices like Sol Sixxa did baseline in 1e...

6 minutes ago, RStan said:

The only caveat to the V-19 cost is whether it's one missile slot or 2. If it's 2 then the base V19 likely is 27 points because barrage rockets equipped to them make them 34 pts which is above the 33 pt spot of bringing 6. It seems like a thing FFG would do if that's the case.

^

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Z-95 has 1 less hp, can soak 2 crits, has the same 2 die primary and can carry any missile other than barrage rockets. TIE/sa has the same 2 die primary, 1 more hp, reload (red, but still has the action), 2 missile slots, Torp slot, device slot and can sling devices like Sol Sixxa did baseline in 1e...

^

Sure, the Bomber has a bunch of upgrade slots, but those are options, not something you can use in-game. Pricing it based on the fact that there are many optional builds would be like pricing a ship higher because it has many different pilots to pick from.

On the table, the main difference between a Bomber with a Concusson Missile and a V-19 with a Concussion Missile is that the Bomber has an extra hull point, an offensive linked action (roll > lock) and a red reload (which is rarely used, since the Bombers tend to die before they get all their ordnance off anyway), while the V-19 has a defensive linked action (roll > evade). The Bomber is definitely better, but not 7 points better.

The TIE Aggressor is also 30 points. Like the V-19 it has 5 HP and a missile slot. It also has a turret slot, which, unlike the ordnance slots of the Bomber, is something that combines easily with missiles, so sure, it might be worth a point or two. But again, 7 points, for a turret slot and 1 hull > shield?

4 minutes ago, Okapi said:

The TIE Aggressor is also 30 points. Like the V-19 it has 5 HP and a missile slot . It also has a turret slot, which, unlike the ordnance slots of the Bomber, is something that combines easily with missiles, so sure, it might be worth a point or two. But again, 7 points, for a turret slot and 1 hull > shield

2 missile slots. TIE Aggressors can take barrage rockets.

6 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Sure, the Bomber has a bunch of upgrade slots, but those are options, not something you can use in-game.

Bandit vs Bynare, Goon vs Grey… There is a slot tax if we like it or not.

1 hour ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

Do you think we'll fly other ARC-170s alongside him or dip into the Delta-7 or V-19 Torrent?

Without points it's a bit difficult to answer but I'm curious if something like 4/5 V-19s + Sinker will be a list we can build. I have a feeling Sinker will be too expensive to get much more beside him than that.

EDIT: Maybe I'm over-costing V-19s as well in my assumptions. Should be around the quadrijet, yeah?

I see V-19’s being priced like TIE Bombers. The updated price, not the original. They have 1 less Hull and a better dial. I think Sinker Swarms is going to work like Jonus Bomber mini swarms.

Following along with @RStan 's I would guess the V-17's price is going to come in at 26-28 points for the base model. The second missile slot probably worth a point more than the single which means no more than 5 with Barrage Rockets (which I don't think the V-17s will get a second missile slot so the conversation is academic). That price range means you can 7 naked, 6 with ordinance, probably 5 naked plus an Arc. And likely 4 V-17s plus an Arc if everything is going to be loaded up. For Arc swarms, you will probably be able to fit baseline models naked plus a unique pilot but not much more. Fully loaded you are probably going to be limited to 3.

Overall, I do think there could be some interesting mix and match opportunities working with Sinker since you can choose whether you want fewer heavier ships, or more lighter ships.

1 minute ago, GeneralVryth said:

The second missile slot

🤨 Where the heck are people getting that this thing will have 2 missile slots? I don't recall barrage rockets in the teaser spread or the recent article.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Where the heck are people getting that this thing will have 2 missile slots? I don't recall barrage rockets in the teaser spread or the recent article.

Wishful thinking. So far Barrage Rockets have been the only useful missile for low initiative pilots. People want to be able to use their missile slots and that seems be the only way to do it, so it's regularly suggested giving a second missile slot to ships that you want to see more missiles from.

Personally, I want to see a modification that lets you conditionally trade a focus token for a target lock at the beginning of the combat phase. It would solve a lot of these locked back issues for lower initiative pilots.

keeping stuff in a large base's side arc might be tricky - it's really limiting when you want to do hard turns

6 minutes ago, svelok said:

keeping stuff in a large base's side arc might be tricky - it's really limiting when you want to do hard turns

🤨 Then I guess it'll be nice for the early start Republic players that the first wave for the faction doesn't include a large based ship.

Just now, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Then I guess it'll be nice for the early start Republic players that the first wave for the faction doesn't include a large based ship.

medium* lol

anyways here's the idea in action:

Pretend this is an ARC, with some Deltas or Torrents, in its side arc at range 2. Then the ARC does a 2-hard...

... and now those side arcs are suddenly kinda hard to get into. A three hard or bank, into boost or roll, does it for the front ship; and a 3 bank into boost and roll just barely gets the rear ship into the right arc. A one hard gets the rear ship just barely into the left arc, and a boost would seal the deal.

It's pretty tough to keep in a formation, especially compared to stuff like the range 0-1 effects that Rebels have. Creates a pretty interesting puzzle to fly.

2 hours ago, Okapi said:

On the table, the main difference between a Bomber with a Concusson Missile and a V-19 with a Concussion Missile is that the Bomber has an extra hull point, an offensive linked action (roll > lock) and a red reload (which is rarely used, since the Bombers tend to die before they get all their ordnance off anyway), while the V-19 has a defensive linked action (roll > evade). The Bomber is definitely better, but not 7 points better.

The TIE Aggressor is also 30 points.

(^^curated to pick out specific points)

First off, I think most are agreed in that the TIE aggressor is still a bit overpriced. I don't think its an appropriate comparison right now, at least from a points perspective.

The biggest difference between the bomber and the V19 is the dial. The V19's dial is pretty bad in general, and much more closed and predictable than the bombers. When you consider how much more manoeuvrable the bomber is, coupled with the extra hull, and the offensive linked action, you can make a case to justify the Bomber being 7pts better.

Now the evade on the V19 is definitely nice and worth noting. It also allows more offensive output from the primary attack with Juke. It's definitely a plus over a headhunter, but maybe levels out with a bomber overall.

The other thing is to keep in mind is that these are a part of a new faction, which demands very different balancing when only consisting of 3 ships.

I personally can see it coming in at an old bomber/quaddy cost in the high 20's. Especially since it will need a 5pt Juke or 6pt concussion missile in order for it to really start having any offensive purpose.

When talking about a Sinker swarm, the V19 dial is going to have trouble keeping up with an ARC-170 on its medium base. The fast Deltas and other ARC's will be easier to keep in his arcs. The barrel roll linked evade action does help the V-19 in that scenario, but I think Sinker himself will incur the Howlrunner tax, rather than the V-19 chassis itself.

5 hours ago, svelok said:

It's  pretty tough to keep in a formation, especially compared to stuff like the rang  e 0-1 effects that Rebels have. Creates a pretty interesting puzzle to   fly. 

Unless you spend too long flying straight at a rock you want to dodge, why on earth would that ARC want to do a hard turn there? I guess to try lining up a butt shot, maybe, but that’s not the point. My point is that you shouldn’t be putting yourself in the position for needing that hard turn without the other ships already being in a decent place to keep up.

An easy example, maybe try setting the ARC up on the other end of that build, so if can do a hard turn to face flankers, whilst it’s buddies stay in front of it so that once it turns, they’re in it’s other side arc? Just spitballing, because the point is: you’re worried about something that’s answered by simply learning to fly differently. I know new mechanics are scary, though, so by all means be afraid.

6 hours ago, BVRCH said:

(^^curated to pick out specific points)

First off, I think most are agreed in that the TIE aggressor is still a bit overpriced. I don't think its an appropriate comparison right now, at least from a points perspective.

I generally agree that the Aggressor is a little overcosted, but I haven't actually tried it out yet. While it didn't get a points decrease, the Bomber and the Scimitar went up, making the Aggressor relatively speaking a better choice than before. Also, it sort of did get a decrease in that the turrets were pretty drastically reduced in cost. If you want a missile you're probably still better off with the Bomber, but at least the Aggressor has a use now. I'm going to have to put one on the table soon to see if it's worth it.

Like you said, evades are great on agility 2 ships, so maybe a Scout (Juke, Ion Cannon Turret) could work? You roll and evade to get into position. Your opponent can shoot at you, but you have a decent chance of negating two damage. If he doesn't shoot, you get to negate defence dice against your ion gun. Bring Sai into the mix to hand out foci maybe?

Quote

The biggest difference between the bomber and the V19 is the dial. The V19's dial is pretty bad in general, and much more closed and predictable than the bombers. When you consider how much more manoeuvrable the bomber is, coupled with the extra hull, and the offensive linked action, you can make a case to justify the Bomber being 7pts better.

Now the evade on the V19 is definitely nice and worth noting. It also allows more offensive output from the primary attack with Juke. It's definitely a plus over a headhunter, but maybe levels out with a bomber overall.

The other thing is to keep in mind is that these are a part of a new faction, which demands very different balancing when only consisting of 3 ships.

I personally can see it coming in at an old bomber/quaddy cost in the high 20's. Especially since it will need a 5pt Juke or 6pt concussion missile in order for it to really start having any offensive purpose.

When talking about a Sinker swarm, the V19 dial is going to have trouble keeping up with an ARC-170 on its medium base. The fast Deltas and other ARC's will be easier to keep in his arcs. The barrel roll linked evade action does help the V-19 in that scenario, but I think Sinker himself will incur the Howlrunner tax, rather than the V-19 chassis itself.

I agree the dial isn't great, but I'm not necessarily convinced it's worse than the Bomber dial. There's more red on it, but it also has both 1-turns, 2-tallons, and blue 1-banks, making it a much better knife fighter and blocker than the Bomber. It's a bit like comparing the Interceptor dial to the v1 dial, or the X-Wing dial to the Kihraxz dial. Similar ships, but dials either suited to going fast or spinning in place (which is a good trick sometimes!).

Again I would expect a mid to high 20s cost for this thing. I'd be massively surprised if it came in at 23 points, but likewise if it ended up costing 30. While internal balance is important, I don't think this should be done with points; rather I think they need to look at options and synergi. If the Republic got a heavily discounted TIE Bomber equivalent for some sort of faction identity reason, this would lead to a couple of things: 1) People would just play the cheap bomber rather than the correctly costed interceptor/attacker, and 2) people wanting to play bombers would just ditch the Empire/Rebels and play Republic. Sure, we'd get the bomber identity Republic and interceptor identity Empire, but this would result in half the ships of both factions being left on the shelf. This might be what happened to the A-Wing and the TIE Advanced x1 in 1.0, and we don't want a repeat of that.

I can't imagine this would be anywhere near 23 points as that is what you pay for a bog standard tie fighter... lowest of the low. This thing is better than a tie fighter mostly due to the amount of hull it has and having access to a linked action.

14 hours ago, svelok said:

medium* lol

anyways here's the idea in action:

Pretend this is an ARC, with some Deltas or Torrents, in its side arc at range 2. Then the ARC does a 2-hard...

... and now those side arcs are suddenly kinda hard to get into. A three hard or bank, into boost or roll, does it for the front ship; and a 3 bank into boost and roll just barely gets the rear ship into the right arc. A one hard gets the rear ship just barely into the left arc, and a boost would seal the deal.

It's pretty tough to keep in a formation, especially compared to stuff like the range 0-1 effects that Rebels have. Creates a pretty interesting puzzle to fly.

Easy answer here is to not do hard turns except in dire circumstances. Limits your options quite a bit but I'm also not sure the formation you have here is what people would want to fly. I think you would probably want them closer to Sinker as well as closer to each other to get better overlapping firing arcs on enemies.

I wonder if a bigger issue here is that Sinker isn't as defensive himself as some of the enablers in other leader-swarm lists.

Play him with Hook and Line or nothing.