Okay, I have a Decimator with Palpatine & The Fifth Brother. Now, I know that they eachcan use both available Force points. But, looking at the wording, can the Fifth Brother use both in a single attack? Or can Palp modify 2 dice in a single roll? (Both assuming 2 points are active.) the cards say use 1, but don’t say “once per” or such.

You could use both on a single roll but only one would be a crit.

19 minutes ago, Ravenhull said:

Okay, I have a Decimator with Palpatine & The Fifth Brother. Now, I know that they eachcan use both available Force points. But, looking at the wording, can the Fifth Brother use both in a single attack? Or can Palp modify 2 dice in a single roll? (Both assuming 2 points are active.) the cards say use 1, but don’t say “once per” or such.

No. The Once Per Opportunity Rule prevents you from using any given ability twice in the same attack. Each says you can use 1 to change 1 result, and that's exactly what each one can do during an attack--no more.

However, as thespaceinvader notes, there is nothing stopping you from using both the Emperor and Fifth Brother to modify the same attack.

But I can’t have Palp modify another ships dice twice in one instance. I can live with that, and he can still do it twice in a turn.

Can I use Palpatine's force charge to generate a critical on a ship Fifth Brother is equipped to?

I'm attacking, I'm still spending 1 to modify 1 of its dice as though that ship had spent 1 , I'm just spending it to change change 1 result to a result.

1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Can I use Palpatine's force charge to generate a critical on a ship Fifth Brother is equipped to?

I'm attacking, I'm still spending 1 to modify 1 of its dice as though that ship had spent 1 , I'm just spending it to change change 1 result to a result.

yes, that works.

I'd concur, though I've seen people argue very strongly otherwise.

In practice, it rarely matters, since you can spend Palp's Force for literally anything else that ship could spend Force on.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'd concur, though I've seen people argue very strongly otherwise.

In practice, it rarely matters, since you can spend Palp's Force for literally anything else that ship could spend Force on.

I thought it should, but just thought I should check I'd not missed a ruling somewhere. Thanks.

The only real situation I could see it coming up is if Fifth Brother spent his force first defending, because you wanted to retain Palpatine's force in case his ship (or any other ship) got shot at instead, so by the time you rolled around to attack Palpatine still had a force charge and Fifth Brother didn't.

Palpatine can still only spend force to modify 1 die, though, as specified on his card. So far, Fifth Brother is the only card which adds a non-standard way to do that (every other force ability or force user either modifies the initial dice pool before its rolled or doesn't spend force during the attack sequence itself at all) - though once Brilliant Evasion is a thing I can see him pairing well with Inquisitors and Vader, as he essentially becomes a bagged evade token for whoever needs it in a given turn.

40 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I thought it should, but just thought I should check I'd not missed a ruling somewhere. Thanks.

The only real situation I could see it coming up is if Fifth Brother spent his force first defending, because you wanted to retain Palpatine's force in case his ship (or any other ship) got shot at instead, so by the time you rolled around to attack Palpatine still had a force charge and Fifth Brother didn't.

Palpatine can still only spend force to modify 1 die, though, as specified on his card. So far, Fifth Brother is the only card which adds a non-standard way to do that (every other force ability or force user either modifies the initial dice pool before its rolled or doesn't spend force during the attack sequence itself at all) - though once Brilliant Evasion is a thing I can see him pairing well with Inquisitors and Vader, as he essentially becomes a bagged evade token for whoever needs it in a given turn.

I thought the force points are added to the ships force pool, they are no longer tied to a particular card?

20 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

I thought the force points are added to the ships force pool, they are no longer tied to a particular card?

Correct. Palpatine and Fifth Brother both add +1 force (and the 1-up icon if you don't already have it) to the ship's own force charge pool, rather than having a separate pool, so it doesn't matter which card originally contributed a charge to a pool.

But I'm talking about Palpatine and Fifth Brother being on different ships and using the Emperor's ability to spend force to modify a different ship's dice.

Yup, there's no question that Palp and 5B could modify two hits into crits if they were on the same ship, as long as those mods were on different attacks - though i don't think there's a way to have them on the same ship AND make multiple attacks.

The question is whether Palp could use Whisper's 5B to modify a hit to a crit if Whisper had already spend her Force that round.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

T he question is whether Palp could use Whisper's 5B to modify a hit to a crit if Whisper had already spend her Force that round.

i think it works. don't see any reason why it shouldn't.

The argument I've seen (not mine, and I think it's wrong) is basically that 5B isn't spending a force to modify a die, he's spending it to activate his ability, which modifies a die.

It's a poor argument, but it's been made to me.

On 2/4/2019 at 2:47 PM, meffo said:

i think it works. don't see any reason why it shouldn't.

I can think of one. (sorry for the post necromancy, but didnt want to make a new post).

The wording of palp makes me believe that, since he is the one modding the dice (being that "You" in reference to abilities is referring to the ship itself) that the ship palp is on, would not have access to the 5th Bro's ability, as its on another ship. The only mod he would effectively have access to, is the force charges default effect. Otherwise, why not word it like Esege who says "it can spend"?



The fact that palp is specific that his ship is spending them for his ship to modify it, kinda tells me the " as though that ship had spent 1 [force]" means "spending it for its default effect".

I will admit, the wording, regardless, is crap, and isnt consistent. And im not sure how i feel about either ruling, but just responding to possible reasons why it may not work.

@Lyianx - i simply disagree.

"you may spend 1 (force) to modify one of it'd dice as though that ship had spent 1 (force)."

that seems pretty cut and dry to me. nothing about standard effect or default effect in that sentence. blinded pilot is an example of wording that could have been used.

if that ship had spent one (force) and it could have done so for another effect than the default effect, palp should definitely be able to spend for that effect as well.

i agree that the wording is not as clear as it should be, of course. especially on blinded pilot. "default effect" is a gross expression that's not a defined rules term. yuk!

also, if they wanted palpatine to work smoothly, i think it would have been better to word his ability as a replacement effect. maybe that's intentional, but it's messy.