2 hours ago, Maui. said:

Well, I think the tokens are received individually, and if that's the case there's really no argument about Nien.

But if they are received simultaneously, what I'm saying is that if multiple tokens meet the criteria, and they are all indistinguishable from one another, then they should all be removed.

ok. but do have any basis for thinking so? it's not damage, it's not first edition. on what do you base the assumption that the tokens are received individually? it's certainly not what the cards say.

if, on the other hand, they are received simultaneously, why should all of them be removed? i'll agree that nien nunbs pilot ability can be interpreted that way, but that's completely disregarding the once per opportunity rule.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

if, on the other hand, they are received simultaneously, why should all of them be removed? i'll agree that nien nunbs pilot ability can be interpreted that way, but that's completely disregarding the once per opportunity rule.

The ability triggers once, and removes every stress token that was just received.

47 minutes ago, Maui. said:

The ability triggers once, and removes every stress token that was just received. 

hmm... that actually made me think. i understand how you're interpreting the ability now. thank you.

i still don't agree with your interpretation, though. i'm sorry to say i believe you're doing something the card text doesn't tell you to do.

"after your gain a stress token [...] you may remove that token." doesn't mean "after you receive stress [...] you may remove it."

i think most of us are aware of FFGs lack of technical writers and resulting sloppy use of english. i certainly won't hesitate to credit our different interpretations to that.

it's worth mentioning again that i'm fully aware most people agree that all the stress is removed, even though i'm not one of them.

hopefully this will be properly clarified at some point.

So playing casually yesterday, I had this scenario:

Nien + Pattern Analyzer - Nien performs Tallon Roll and lands on Debris cloud. Enemy ship now is in front arc range 1.

1. Completes Tallon roll, receives 1 stress from landing on debris cloud. Rolls die, stress token removed for Nien ability.

2. PA triggers before checking maneuver difficulty, Take action (Target Lock)

3. Check difficulty - red maneuver, gain a stress.

4. Nien ability, remove stress token.

5. Nien performs "standard" action since not stress - Focus.

Is this correct?

I could add one more hypothetical step - Focus links into barrel roll (S-foils). Enemy ship still in arc R1. Stress token is removed again?

1 minute ago, EAuyang said:

So playing casually yesterday, I had this scenario:

Nien + Pattern Analyzer - Nien performs Tallon Roll and lands on Debris cloud. Enemy ship now is in front arc range 1.

1. Completes Tallon roll, receives 1 stress from landing on debris cloud. Rolls die, stress token removed for Nien ability.

2. PA triggers before checking maneuver difficulty, Take action (Target Lock)

3. Check difficulty - red maneuver, gain a stress.

4. Nien ability, remove stress token.

5. Nien performs "standard" action since not stress - Focus.

Is this correct?

I could add one more hypothetical step - Focus links into barrel roll (S-foils). Enemy ship still in arc R1. Stress token is removed again?

Yup this is all legal.

1 minute ago, Innese said:

Yup this is all legal.

Good. I thought so. My new opponent said it seemed like shenanigans, but I was pretty sure based on sequence breakdown that it worked.

12 minutes ago, EAuyang said:

Good. I thought so. My new opponent said it seemed like shenanigans, but I was pretty sure based on sequence breakdown that it worked.

works 100%. the issue is if he receives two stress from the same effect.

Sorry haven't been able to check in a awhile.

20 hours ago, meffo said:

ok. but do have any basis for thinking so? it's not damage, it's not first edition. on what do you base the assumption that the tokens are received individually? it's certainly not what the cards say.

if, on the other hand, they are received simultaneously, why should all of them be removed? i'll agree that nien nunbs pilot ability can be interpreted that way, but that's completely disregarding the once per opportunity rule.

One pathway to it working is based on the assumption that they are dealt one-at-a-time, with damage being used as a precedent.

Another is that they are simultaneous but each token still generates a separate trigger, leading to multiple effects being added to the ability que.

1 hour ago, prauxim said:

A nother is that they are simultaneous but each token still generates a separate trigger, leading to multiple effects being added to the ability que.

that doesn't check out because of once per opportunity.

the other interpretation is that the ability triggers once and removes all the token.

Finally resolved lol. Rulings for Paris Open:

Gaining Multiple Tokens - When a ship gains more than 1 type of token (ie Panicked Pilot critical damage card or Admiral Sloane’s pilot ability), it gains the tokens one at a time.

1 hour ago, prauxim said:

Finally resolved lol. Rulings for Paris Open:

Gaining Multiple Tokens - When a ship gains more than 1 type of token (ie Panicked Pilot critical damage card or Admiral Sloane’s pilot ability), it gains the tokens one at a time.

that's not a resolution, though. just a ruling for an event. props to them for clearly stating it before the event. sloane does not have a pilot ability, by the way.

Most rules regarding tokens that limit the number of tokens the ability or game effect applies to, actually limit the number of tokens affected.

When you do a blue maneuver, it says to remove "1" stress token and "1" strain token. The ability is written in a way to imply there is not a number limit to the number of stress he can remove, if his ability criteria are met.

"After you gain a stress token, if there is an enemy ship in your [front arc] at range 0-1, you may remove that stress token."

Each token is an individual stress token, which you are receiving at the same time. The rule applies to each token individually. If it were limited to 1, it would likely be written like this:

After you gain stress, if there is an enemy ship in your [front arc] at range 0-1, you may remove 1 stress token.

2 hours ago, meffo said:

that's not a resolution, though. just a ruling for an event. props to them for clearly stating it before the event. sloane does not have a pilot ability, by the way.

Its a ruling directly from FFG OP via facebook (incl calling Sloan a pilot, lol). Less official than being in the RR, but it's "resolved" in the sense that any reasonable TO would now rule it a certain way barring a reversal by FFG, that's all that matters.

6 hours ago, prauxim said:

Its a ruling directly from FFG OP via facebook (incl calling Sloan a pilot, lol). Less official than being in the RR, but it's "resolved" in the sense that any reasonable TO would now rule it a certain way barring a reversal by FFG, that's all that matters.

let me just quote a dear contributor.

13 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yup. TO rulings can be wrong, and have repeatedly been wrong, even at the highest level of events.

again, it's good that they clarified ahead of the event, but it's still not resolved by any stretch of the imagination. people play this game outside of big events as well - and the rules need to be clear for everyone to have a good experience. unless it's in the rules reference or rulebook, it's not really valid.

21 minutes ago, meffo said:

let me just quote a dear contributor.
Yup. TO rulings can be wrong, and have repeatedly been wrong, even at the highest level of events.

again, it's good that they clarified ahead of the event, but it's still not resolved by any stretch of the imagination. people play this game outside of big events as well - and the rules need to be clear for everyone to have a good experience. unless it's in the rules reference or rulebook, it's not really valid.

What do you not understand about the fact that this ruling is directly from FFG OP and not a TO?

4 minutes ago, prauxim said:

What do you not understand about the fact that this ruling is directly from FFG OP and not a TO?

what? how did you conclude i didn't understand that? you simply stated that any reasonable TO would rule like this and thus the question is resolved. that's not true. TO rulings are often not right.

also, "an FFG OP on facebook" is certainly not a reliable source at all. it needs to be in the rules before the issue is resolved. simple as that.

17 minutes ago, meffo said:

also, "an FFG OP on facebook" is certainly not a reliable source at all

FFG OP's official facebook account isn't reliable? Lol

Yes. They have provided rulings at events in the past which answers later reversed in FAQs.

Well, until we have a rules/FAQ update which overrules this, the Paris ruling would be the 'correct' interpretation of the interaction.

'Reliability' is immaterial. This is the most recent ruling from an official channel.

36 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

Well, until we have a rules/FAQ update which overrules this, the Paris ruling would be the 'correct' interpretation of the interaction.

'Reliability' is immaterial. This is the most recent ruling from an official channel.

That's not how this works.

The only rulings which are 'official' in any capacity are the ones in the sticky thread in this forum, and the ones in the Rules Reference.

I hope this is the ruling that is eventually made official, but at the moment, it's not.

2 hours ago, prauxim said:

FFG OP's official facebook account isn't reliable? Lol

certainly would be more reliable if you actually referenced it properly, with a link, screenshot or what ever. and no, it's a reliable source for what ever event they're hosting, but it's very far from a complete solution, or a reliable source of rulings outside of the event you're referring to.

it's worth noting that how an official FFG event is run does not necessarily reflect the intention of the game designers.

that being said, i expect this to be properly clarified in the not very distany future, in a place where it actually matters, such as the rules reference.

the sticky thread on top of this forum is normally pasted in the next version of the rules reference, so if something is posted there, it's reliable.

Not the first event that FFG OP made this exact ruling.

8 hours ago, Shockwave said:

Not the first event that FFG OP made this exact ruling.

Doesn't matter. Until it appears in black-and-white in an official document, such as the Rules Ref or the sticky thread in this forum, it could just as easily be a stroke of luck that two FFG judges happened to interpret it the same way. And nothing prevents them changing their minds at the next event.

To give people a quick history lesson, in First Edition, FFG OP ruled Emperor Palpatine & Lightweight Frame one way at one event, then turned around and ruled the opposite way at the next, before finally going back to the first ruling when they finally put it into the FAQ. Until we get to that last step we do not have an official ruling.

Then again, currently we have no foundation in the rules to build any of our (community) interpretations on, so isn't this the next best thing? I reckon they can change their mind soon enough but hey - so they can and so they did already with rulings written down in FAQ / Official Rules Thread on the forum (Dash), so can we really argue FAQ rulings are any more permanent or trustworthy?

As the local TO I will simply follow the latest FFG ruling available, giving FAQ precedence over TO rulings of course, if both available.